I understand how Spellmaking can be viewed as a way of taking the "magicness" out of magic and replacing it with sliders and that sort of makes it more technical than magical..
But I don't believe anyone truly enjoys having a certain set of spells they can use, then only spamming those X amount of spells in a correct sequence to maximize their damage and win the battle..
I never viewed spellmaking as "Technical" rather I saw it as my character becoming a powerful arcane scholar and being able to make the forces of magic do his bidding, his way.

I remember my first times in Tamriel when I regarded the Spell sellers as sages, powerful Characters who had tamed this beast named magic and was making it do their bidding, their way.
I watched them from the corner of the tavern thinking "One day... That will be me" . I recognized how these sages had collected rare spell effects and molded them to suit their needs. Some of these men and women were ambitious and had spells crafted that were so powerful I'd never myself be able to even replicate them.
Others were haphazard bafoons who had created spells so dull I couldn't understand how they ever survived in the wilderness..
Still they had a profound knowledge of the arcane and had discovered many a spell on their past travels or pilgrimages. I saw them as seasoned adventurers who had some of the answers, but I wanted them all.

Erhm, my point is that I created a character unique to me. With spells and abilities that I personally had created. I as many before me had taken the bull by the horns, tamed it and now the forces of magic was under my control. Instead of using the spells, that more powerful scholars than me had created to do my bidding, I instead created the spells myself! I was truly a master of magic. A force to be reckoned with. I had rose above my masters.

What I'm trying to get across here is that purchasing spells from scholars who apparently are able to create spells themselves (The spells they are selling), then use them in a specific sequence, restricts game play a LOT. It will make the game a lot more generic. My worst nightmare is that you'll see console players running around with a "God button" which is the one most powerful spell ingame spamming it over and over, and pc gamers creating truly overpowered "city destroyer" spells which are made in some buggy addon.

Thanks for reading, constructive comments are welcome.

*EDIT* Make a DLC Spellmaking instead then..

Well in Skyrim we now can actually do exactly what you say, tame the beast of magic. Spells have different types of effects and that is a huge step forward. Mixing spells however is a vital part of being a mage and I do hope that BGS can get the spell making work properly.

Oh, please. It's not like anyone ever used spellmaking to create anything other than broken metagaming spells, like Charm 100 for 1 Sec on Touch. Even if you didn't, your spells svcked. There was nothing really different about them than the ones you could buy from vendors, unless you did what I did and created a one-damage huge area effect lightning spell especially for messing up bookshelves. And even if you disagree with that, and provide anecdotal evidence that you're certain proves me wrong, one thing that's absolutely right about gamesas's commentary on Skyrim so far is that in past games magic felt more like a damn spreadsheet than, you know, magic. Ooh, that particle effect you threw just now sure was a different color from the one you threw before, and has the exact same effect if the enemy has no elemental resistances or weaknesses. Excitement!

Sorry, I lost any and all ability to care about the loss of spellmaking when I learned I'd finally get my flamethrower hands that I've been wanting ever since Morrowind. The addition of rune scribing, area-effect spells, and two-hand charge-up varieties only gets me more excited. Spellmaking gone and I get this in return? Good freaking riddance, I say.

pointless spam post removed

Not that I don't want it in, but you'd actually get WAY more Godmode spells if you let people create it themselves. I think you'll find Bethesda avoiding making overpowered spells for purchase.

Well if not ingame spellmaking at last can be in CS.
I believe there is no hardcoded spells, new spells similar to Midas Magic, they are combination of script effect, spell effects and cool visuals like animation and FX , spell can be already combination of different spells what we can assign to different ways of using in CS (like having both hands used or just one, target of spell on self or distant one, area effect and rune effect etc) there can be leveled versions of same spell and improved ones with perks, spells added via quests and similar events and cannot be purchased in spell shops, but instead here can be teachers thats can teach player spell for something (quest, money etc)
Thats will be very strange to have 85 spell effects and not available to modify them in CS
Think about midas magic and bioshock plasmids\dark messiah spells combination with ability edit them in CS like spells in TorchED

So self made spells are either useless or exploits?
Interesting: one of my favourite two spells is command humanoid/ creature level 25 in 8 seconds on target. Frenzy over a large area but pretty short duration is another useful one, you need a large area as unaffected enemies will prefer to attack you an 4-6 second duration is long enough as you can simply cast again.

Please note that both command and frenzy does not have default spells who work on high level enemies only level 9 as expert.
Chameleon spell has maximum effect 75%, makes no sense as you can reach 100% far easier with potions. (yes chameleon 100% is overpowered but it’s not an issue here.)

Restoration, no restore health 50 in 1 second, a master restore spell restores 30 in 6 seconds who is pretty pointless, either restore as much as possible in 1 second, or do a long term low level heal as a self made potion.

Weakness to poison 100% on target is also nice, very useful for killing liches as a pure mage with weakness to magic.
Max weakness effect is 25%.

In short the supplied spells in Oblivion has gaping holes leaving illusion broken without the spellmaker. Yes the default spells work well enough for utility magic but not for a pure mage.

In short I doubt a pure mage will be playable without any sort of spellmaker, no it will not ruin Skyrim as pure mages was pretty unplayable in Morrowind without the fortify intelligence potion exploit and nobody will say it was a bad game

I have to admit, I found the spells far too spreadsheety before. I hated that I had to cast different spells that had the same effect in order to get different damage, etc, that I had a list full of utterly useless spells that only worked on low level characters, and that spell making was all about setting points sliders and was ridiculously easy to exploit.

I LOVE playing a mage. But I like it to feel varied and exciting. Building and buying myself a powerful or even strategic spell isn't the same as the idea of laying explosive runes, choosing to funnel my spell into a flame-thrower, or actually levelling-up the skill itself as a perk.

I don't feel any loss about spell-making. I'm hoping it means that the magic system will be more intuitive, fun and situational.

Yes you can do a lot in CS, far more than in a spellmaker. You can do simple thing just by tweaking values like in the spellmaker, or complex things with custom animation and effects.
Yes lot of this stuff will be totally gamebreaking like novice summon dragon spells.
I also understand that spells use far more special effects and scripting now, this makes it hard to manipulate in the spellmaker.
Now add that many spells can be used in different ways that makes this even harder.

However I’m pretty sure that the list of spells we will get will leave a lot to be desired, also wonder how spells of different strength will work.
Multiple options: you have to buy a new and stronger spell probably easiest.
Strength level with skill workable, more so with charging it up against stronger enemies.
You would anyway need to have a large set of base spells for different area effect sizes, self and touch. This will also be far more restrictive than Oblivions perk levels as functions like short duration huge area effect frenzy or long time low level heal on touch is unlikely to be inn

Since a lot of people seem to hate it making a DLC Spellmaking seems like the best idea.

WTF? So your solution is that because people can't agree on spellmaking, lets just make people pay extra for it?

Zaria and Gregasaurus both make good points. Zaria is completely right that in past games, you almost needed to use spellmaking in order to make the useful spells. All of his examples are good ones. Frenzy and Demoralize are completely useless in Oblivion at higher levels due to level scaling unless you create your own custom spells, in particular. At the same time, I think you must acknowledge what Greg said about spellmaking breaking the game in certain ways. I personally used a charm 100 for 2 seconds spell from very early on in my last playthrough, which basically negates any need for speechcraft for the rest of the game. In morrowind (i can't remember if its true in Oblivion), open lock spells pretty much negate the need for lockpicking after you reach a level of ~ 50 in alteration.

These games are enormous and open, so its hard to cover every detail when you have a system that allows for as many complexities as spellmaking does. That said, it does seem like there should be some way to keep this system in the game, because it does serve a purpose. It might also make sense to only open it up to higher skilled players in certain disciplines (i.e. you can only use spellmaking for alteration spells if your skill is 75 or higher).

Well I really want to see how new magic system will be implemented, if dynamic spell weaving and spell combination will make mage experience more rich and in touch with mystical forces of Magic more then in classical magic system thats will be Brilliant Awesome.

For example before we need to have different spells of different magnitude and range in spellbook now we can have spell charging like in this mod
Chargeable Spells
http://tesnexus.com/downloads/file.php?id=27746
When actual magnitude of spell or range of area effect can changed dynamically in game thats will simulate gathering of mystical powers and concentration of mage to control such powers, thats greatly improve roleplay of mage since no need different spells where difference between them only in basic parameters like range duration and magnitude (M D R) this spells can be created ingame on fly with chargeable magic out of just one spell.
So no need to have a large set of base spells for different area effect sizes, self and touch thats will clutter spellbook
and have only difference in basic parameters like (M D R).

How it can be balanced?
By caps in parameters of spell (M D R), thats caps can be affected by skills and perks or by parameters of %PCname like Magicka and Fatigue.
so thats limit player from creating of unbalanced spells since there can be cap for minimum and maximum in (M D R) there can also be applied spell success thats depend on skill level, charge of spell, wearing armor and actual fatigue of Mage nice to see some hardcoe features like in this mod
Audacious Magery
http://tesnexus.com/downloads/file.php?id=25844 so magic can be actual wild mystical and unstable force.

But thats will be handle only pure spells, for creating spell with additional effects need to have spellmaking or simulate spell effect blending ingame
how thats can be done?
Well for first one it creating spell in CS, for second one its adding side effects to main one effect of spell, for example this old one mod for Oblivion
Phisic Magic Effect
http://tesnexus.com/downloads/file.php?id=5016
or more advanced version in Deadly Reflex and Supreme Magicka
For third one there can be ability to equip two different spells on your left and right hand in one time so thats also expand spell combinations.
For fourth one there can be perks in magic skills thats can add additional effects to spell, for example weakness to elemental damage of fire in destruction perks tree
at next level it can increase in power, such perk can be added to all elemental weaknesses investing all types perks eventually will open way to weakness to magic perk and additional spell effect.

As you can see most of predictable features from Skyrim magic system already was in Oblivion with mods.
If new magic system will be flawed, there still CS so we can mode magic system to be better, well if need even classical spellmaking can be simulated via scripts at some stage of Skyrim modding.
Custom spells like novice summon dragon spells can be done with CS, but they are mods so completely optional so they isn't gamebreaking since we cant create such spells in game.


For example Illusion skill level can affect magnitude of frenzy spell (actual level of enemy), charged time and skill cap can affect duration and range, some perks can expand (M D R) caps greater.
Heal on touch can be heal on self but with altered target

Quote from mod above and yes thats was dynamically done in game, charging applied to this spells also.

While I like the idea of spell making, I actually didn't like how it was executed in previous game (witch is kinda hypocritical from me since I made about 100 spells back in Morrowind and each and every of them had their actual use and weren't unnecessary).
For starters, I would prefer if spell making was a skill instead of you making it at some altar.
Still, there should be some limitations on it so we avoid god spells and other game breaking stuff.
The point is, if they return spell making, let it be balanced.

Also, this is a bit of topic, but still, I think that they should make spell learning more similar to training rather than buying.
I really feel stupid when I go and buy spells.
I mean, spells are not ham or cheese that you can buy them like that.
Each time you learn spell, some time should pass just like when you used to train with trainers in Oblivion.
There should be also some other stuff that would make spells look more like something you learn from some sage rather than simply buying it.

I actually made spells because I prefered having my own spell rather than the standard. I didn't just create broken spells, I made spells for fun.
In fact my favorite fireball spell was rather weak, but it was my own.

Not everyone used enchanting in Morrowind or Oblivion to break the game, people need to quit assuming everyone did those things and they need to be removed...

spellmaking<>>>><<<<>>>><>> MUST HAVE !!!!

.... First off DLC's are not "must haves" . You can CHOOSE to purchase them, or not..

Some of the stuff you said in the last paragraph has value.



Those are some great ideas and I SO do hope that those things are included in Skyrim.
Don't get me wrong I love making mods and installing others' mods but they often aren't compatible with eachother and / or have bugs.



Thank you for recognizing that.



Exactly!!! People are too pessimistic and negative.

Spellmaking would be nice, but I would have trouble policing myself if it wasn't balanced. That'd be pretty hard to do, I'd imagine.

As long as I can delete spells, I'll be happy.

There should be a way to combine spells in that you cast both spells at once, but the slider stuff is unnecessary.

...Who cares if they spam their spells, the game isn't gona be multiplayer.

Give the new system a chance, guys. If it svcks, then maybe you can petition for spellmaking to be reintroduced in TES:VI.

Secretly, I'm on your side, but mainly because only 80 spells wtf is that?

I really hope that spellmaking is continued, but just because we are making spells doesn't mean it has to be a spreadsheet. It can be a lot more visual and in-gamey than it was in Oblivion or Morrowind and still be capable of making varied spells. We can represent with colors, symbols, and shapes what the spells actually are and what their properties are.

Or make some spells a lot harder to get. In Morrowind there were some spells I never bought because they were so expensive, I sure didn't abuse the charm spell then.

But a lot of those "duration 2 seconds" spells can be balanced now that conversations, and maybe menus, are in real time.

Thank you for contributing with positive value.

That's a really good point. I like that!

Maybe I have a different opinion because I never really play mage characters but by removing the spell making it seems to add more strategy to that form of combat by making you choose which spells suit the situation instead of making your own spell that will simply obliterate anything. I'm sure there will be powerful spells at later levels anyway so I don't see what the big fuss is.