Nerevarine and Almelexia? : The Elder Scrolls Series Discussion

» Sun Mar 27, 2011 2:18 am

I don't think the Sermons ever mentioned Vivec becoming a god through the use of Kagrenac's Tools.

Dwemeri high priest Kagrenac then revealed that which he had built in the image of Vivec. It was a walking star, which burnt the armies of the Triune and destroyed the heartland of Veloth, creating the Inner Sea.

Each of the aspects of the ALMSIVI then rose up together, combining as one, and showed the world the sixth path. Ayem took from the star its fire, Seht took from it its mystery, and Vehk took from it its feet, which had been constructed before the gift of Molag Bal and destroyed in the manner of truth: by a great hammering. When the soul of the Dwemer could walk no more, they were removed from this world.

Also:

"He was not born a god. His destiny did not lead him to this crime. He chose this path of his own free will. He stole the godhood and murdered the Hortator. Vivec wrote this."

"FOUL MURDER."

Read before you speak.

» Sat Mar 26, 2011 10:18 pm

Yeah. As opposed to the named characters in that faction in the CS, there's a generic "Bouyant Armiger" type character, the nameless ones who walk about the Ghost Gate. If I recall correctly there's a very specific reference to homosixuality in their flavor comment.

I couldn't find anything. Allthough, that might be because I don't understand what you mean with "flavor comment" in the first place :bigsmile:

» Sat Mar 26, 2011 12:56 pm

Dwemeri high priest Kagrenac then revealed that which he had built in the image of Vivec. It was a walking star, which burnt the armies of the Triune and destroyed the heartland of Veloth, creating the Inner Sea.

Each of the aspects of the ALMSIVI then rose up together, combining as one, and showed the world the sixth path. Ayem took from the star its fire, Seht took from it its mystery, and Vehk took from it its feet, which had been constructed before the gift of Molag Bal and destroyed in the manner of truth: by a great hammering. When the soul of the Dwemer could walk no more, they were removed from this world.

Also:

"He was not born a god. His destiny did not lead him to this crime. He chose this path of his own free will. He stole the godhood and murdered the Hortator. Vivec wrote this."

"FOUL MURDER."

Read before you speak.

I'm well aware of the "hidden message". But aside from that, there's no mention of actually using Kagrenac's Tools to achieve godhood in the sermons, as Temple policy stated that Vivec became a god elsewhere. Aside from the hidden message, the Sermons seem to convey the idea that he WAS born a god and did all the stuff that he did before the War of the First Council, when in fact, that's very unlikely.

» Sat Mar 26, 2011 8:36 pm

It mentions they took the damn divinity from the Brass God. How many nits do you want to pick?

Also:

At this the egg laughed. 'I am given too much to bear so young. I must have been born before.'"

Vivec is a born-again as ~~Christian~~ God. Both in the Sermons as in the hidden message. The sermons intertwine the stories of his birth as a god with the birth and life of his mortal self. The duality is even in his name, Vi-Vec, Vehk and Vehk.

But when are you going to read?

» Sun Mar 27, 2011 1:58 am

It mentions they took the damn divinity from the Brass God. How many nits do you want to pick?

Also:

At this the egg laughed. 'I am given too much to bear so young. I must have been born before.'"

Vivec is a born-again as ~~Christian~~ God. Both in the Sermons as in the hidden message. The sermons intertwine the stories of his birth as a god with the birth and life of his mortal self. The duality is even in his name, Vi-Vec, Vehk and Vehk.

But when are you going to read?

It also said that the Brass God was made in their image; a god. And he stopped the Moon from hitting the city, assumed his giant form, and did many strange things beforehand.

» Sat Mar 26, 2011 6:11 pm

It also said that the Brass God was made in their image; a god. And he stopped the Moon from hitting the city, assumed his giant form, and did many strange things beforehand.

Chimes of truth my friend.

Consider it a Bible. Part fiction, part fact, part philosophy, part instruction. As a whole, an awesome story.

» Sun Mar 27, 2011 3:56 am

Chimes of truth my friend.

But it would have been impossible until he actually became a god.

Edit: Besides, if he was really all that, then he would have easily stopped Reman's forces. And that was before he needed to keep the Ghostfence going.

» Sun Mar 27, 2011 3:38 am

:blink:
Ok, what is it with the Tribunal and weird six?

Honestly, I feel glad the Nerevarine didn't have to marry Almalexia, she was crazy in the Sermons, and she's even crazier now...

That's just MKs thing. Go figure.

As for the hands, yeah, she definitly had other-than-military uses for them. That crazy hand had the problem of actually falling in love with her emotionally as opposed to just wanting to bang her like everyone else, so when she rejected him he went crazy.

She did say "take your place at my side." Whether as her lover or not is never said. but since you need to always keep one half your head in the gutter when talking about the Tribunal that's probably what both she, the character and the writer meant you to think.

That is the one thing that simply doesn't hold as anything other then justification of a divine position. If it was possible to change the past, we would not know about the mortal forms of the Tribunal, Manimacro or Talos.

You know I'm simple. Help me out. Does "Justification of a divine position" mean pretty much Sotha Sil's quote about lies with a ring of truth (Vivec being a god now, so why wouldn't he have been then/ We weren't there, who are we to say he's wrong)?

» Sat Mar 26, 2011 2:34 pm

But it would have been impossible until he actually became a god.

Besides the point. The stories are intertwined. It seems you can keep the threads apart just fine.

» Sun Mar 27, 2011 3:57 am

[quote name='Lycanthropic_Nerev' post='12861737' date='Sep 20 2008, 01:24 AM']You know I'm simple. Help me out. Does "Justification of a divine position" mean pretty much Sotha Sil's quote about lies with a ring of truth (Vivec being a god now, so why wouldn't he have been then/ We weren't there, who are we to say he's wrong)?[/quote]

Might as well drag out the whole quote for the context because the way it gets quoted has started to show some rust. The idea that the past was changed is not supported by the original material.

[quote name='Striker']Even though Vehk speaks in riddles, do you not agree that the now Mortal Vehk is not the same as the first Mortal Vehk? Once the Tribunal used the tools on the Heart, Vehk can never forget, even now as a Mortal once again. Does this make him the same as he once was? Surely it does not. His memories of his time as a 'God' have forever changed him into the mortal you see before you. His physical appearance is the same, but his soul has forever been changed from what he once was. Surely he has learnt from his past and will not perform the same actions again, given the choice.

I believe that for this action he has been punished. I also believe that a high price has been paid - one which should not be added to further.

-Stri'Ker[/quote]

[quote name='Vehk']I will leave it to others to find where I have written all this before. But when Vehk the mortal reached into the Heart, he ceased to be anything except for what he wished to be. The axis erupted. There was an exact cracking, an instant of pure Aurbis, his hands burnt black by that ever-nil of static change, and Vivec the god who had never been had always been. A whole universe swelled up to legitimize his throne... as the old universe, where Vehk the mortal still lapped up Godsblood, warped itself to accept its new equivalent. And like all things magical it simply could not happen, could not Be. Red Mountain was the intersection of the Is-Is Not as it was of old, its center point, and it did not hold. And so the Dragon, having broken, saw fit to heal, turning into the world you know. Except now Vivec the God was alive before his own birth, which had, in fact, really happened in the death of the last universe. Hard to grasp in three-dimensional thought? Why, of course it is. And so that is why some semblance of my anguished personal reconciliation found its way into my own scripture. Why did I leave the Nerevarine two accounts of his death, one that I could have easily erased from the minds of my own people? Because he is Hortator, GHARTOK PADHOME AE ALTADOON DUNMERI, my lord and king in this world and the last, and as Vehk and Vehk I murdered him, then raised him, then taught to him to know, and so would I have it when he came to me at last that he decide. I give you this as Vivec.[/quote]
From the Trial of Vivec

The idea is that gods are eternal, but for gods to be eternal they must have been since the start of the universe. If one becomes a god, then he must destroy the old universe and start one a new.

This shows in the way the old universe warps to match the new. It doesn't warp the past of the old universe but it inserts an now eternal Vivec from the new world into the old.

But what if the idea is just that? An idea the people hold in high regard? Without it, there is a much simpler vision. The Altmer don't see the gods anything other then their formidable ancestors.

What if like the ancestors of the Altmer, Vivec could control the events in time and act out his own birth as a god in that time? It is easy to see the world where time is under his control as the new world to which the old shapes itself.

This might be what you call the chimes of truth.

» Sat Mar 26, 2011 3:05 pm

Just about everybody in Morrowind loves Vivec and Almalexia. And not in the sixual way. And we can be sure because they lock themselves up and are only seen by a few people.

Just about everyone in morrowind does love them, and in the totally platonic way. However, they have their "blessed"/"faithful" for the more... well... physical needs of being an imposter god. Like that nagging elven labido they haven't seemed to shake off yet. That's why Almie has her hands, and Vivec has his armigers, when he wants them. Sotha Sil's so hung up on non-living machines you can imagine what types of stuff he has created. Vibrating muatra, anyone? j/k

Seriously, though, the armigers are supposed to be homosixual/bi, and Almalexia's "good with her hands". It's a M rated game for a reason. Not only is there drugs and violence, but there's sixual references throughout. It's not that big a deal, really.

» Sat Mar 26, 2011 3:10 pm

Just about everyone in morrowind does love them, and in the totally platonic way. However, they have their "blessed"/"faithful" for the more... well... physical needs of being an imposter god. Like that nagging elven labido they haven't seemed to shake off yet. That's why Almie has her hands, and Vivec has his armigers, when he wants them. Sotha Sil's so hung up on non-living machines you can imagine what types of stuff he has created. Vibrating muatra, anyone? j/k

Seriously, though, the armigers are supposed to be homosixual/bi, and Almalexia's "good with her hands". It's a M rated game for a reason. Not only is there drugs and violence, but there's sixual references throughout. It's not that big a deal, really.

First of all, Morrowind, unlike Daggerfall and Oblivion, is rated T. Of course, if MK had his way, it probably would have been rated M.

The Armigers are a military force, not a harem. None of them are stationed in Vivec City. One of them is having a secret affair with the dukes daughter, and three of them are brothers. On the other Hand (pun intended), the Hands remain in the chapel with Almalexia.

» Sun Mar 27, 2011 1:31 am

First of all, Morrowind, unlike Daggerfall and Oblivion, is rated T. Of course, if MK had his way, it probably would have been rated M.

Truth be told, in my opinion, the TES series is a series that should be intended for a mature audience. Some of the content is highly challenging and sophisticated and very well worth thinking about - on a philosopical level. The gameplay itself isn't that challenging, but the artistic interpretation of philosophical aspects of the real world, the mix of myths, religion and world-views - that's what makes it interesting and "magic" - to me. Well, at least, that made the TES series interesting for me. Nowadays, I'm not that confident anymore.
In addition to that, I also think that the discussion of sixuality and sixual nuances also requires a certain kind of maturity.
Oh, and for the record: I've seen 15-year old kids having the above requirements for "maturity" to fruitfully discuss both philosophical as well as sixually themed topics. I've also seen "experienced advlts" well past 40 or 50 years of age who showed a state of immaturity that is unbelievable and totally ridiculous as well as childish. So, yeah, "maturity" doesn't have anything to do with "age".

The Armigers are a military force, not a harem. None of them are stationed in Vivec City. One of them is having a secret affair with the dukes daughter, and three of them are brothers. On the other Hand (pun intended), the Hands remain in the chapel with Almalexia.

"Military force" and "harem" are not mutually exclusive things. Nor does it anywhere say that the Armigers are a harem, nor does it say that they have to be all around Vivec all the time. We have the strong hints of what they are in the Sermons and we have a developer quote telling us what said developer imagined them to be. But, somehow I don't think that counts for you. Which makes me think about why I actually wrote this...

» Sat Mar 26, 2011 6:31 pm

Truth be told, in my opinion, the TES series is a series that should be intended for a mature audience. Some of the content is highly challenging and sophisticated and very well worth thinking about - on a philosopical level. The gameplay itself isn't that challenging, but the artistic interpretation of philosophical aspects of the real world, the mix of myths, religion and world-views - that's what makes it interesting and "magic" - to me. Well, at least, that made the TES series interesting for me. Nowadays, I'm not that confident anymore.
In addition to that, I also think that the discussion of sixuality and sixual nuances also requires a certain kind of maturity.
Oh, and for the record: I've seen 15-year old kids having the above requirements for "maturity" to fruitfully discuss both philosophical as well as sixually themed topics. I've also seen "experienced advlts" well past 40 or 50 years of age who showed a state of immaturity that is unbelievable and totally ridiculous as well as childish. So, yeah, "maturity" doesn't have anything to do with "age".

Personally I think the whole innuendo aspect has been blown out of proportion regarding Morrowind. Not only did Bethesda avoid an M Rating, but the Temple even censored The Real Barenziah.

"Military force" and "harem" are not mutually exclusive things. Nor does it anywhere say that the Armigers are a harem, nor does it say that they have to be all around Vivec all the time. We have the strong hints of what they are in the Sermons and we have a developer quote telling us what said developer imagined them to be. But, somehow I don't think that counts for you. Which makes me think about why I actually wrote this...

And most of the evidence I give is denounced as "gameplay mechanics" or "doesn't count". It's all just reluctance to go against the time-honored practice of taking everything in the Sermons as both completely true and as sixually-charged as it can be interpreted. But at least to me, in-game evidence seems far more concrete than a few design notes, obscure books, and a few hints dropped by some ex-dev.

» Sun Mar 27, 2011 12:53 am

You're meant to see the world as if it were real, and read inbetween the lines, CP!

» Sat Mar 26, 2011 5:05 pm

You're meant to see the world as if it were real, and read inbetween the lines, CP!

Reading between the lines is one thing, interpreting it to be the same basic thing every time is another.

» Sun Mar 27, 2011 1:47 am

Reading between the lines is one thing, interpreting it to be the same basic thing every time is another.

Except when the interpretation is confirmed by the author.

» Sat Mar 26, 2011 11:20 pm

Except when it's confirmed by the author.

An author who left Bethesda before the game was finished.

» Sat Mar 26, 2011 11:51 pm

An author who left Bethesda before the game was finished.

He still wrote it and it's in the game and he's in the game credits. So what?
Dude, you're trolling and you're being insulting. So the only right thing for me to do is to stop feeding the troll and encourage the others to do the same.

» Sat Mar 26, 2011 4:21 pm

An author who left Bethesda before the game was finished.

But who remains the author.

EDIT: Late edit moved to reply.

» Sat Mar 26, 2011 3:01 pm

But who remains the author.

But he doesn't have control over it, Bethesda does. Since he left, he lost the right to it.

He still wrote it and it's in the game and he's in the game credits. So what?
Dude, you're trolling and you're being insulting. So the only right thing for me to do is to stop feeding the troll and encourage the others to do the same.

I'm not trolling, I just don't think that things said by an ex-dev should take precedence over things in-game. As you may have noticed, most of the evidence I present on things are in-game things, because I feel that's where it truly matters.

» Sun Mar 27, 2011 1:31 am

But he doesn't have control over it, Bethesda does. Since he left, he lost the right to it.

'Right' to ideas and art? Interesting philosophy, that one.

Let's just get the facts here:

1: The author's original intent was for that to be the case.

2: There are allusions in-game to this intent.

3: There are no denials, implicit or explicit, in-game to this intent.

Looking at those facts, it's fair to say that reading between the lines is entirely justified in this case. If you choose to not read in between said lines, then that's your loss.

» Sun Mar 27, 2011 4:31 am

'Right' to ideas and art? Interesting philosophy, that one.

Let's just get the facts here:

1: The author's original intent was for that to be the case.

2: There are allusions in-game to this intent.

3: There are no denials, implicit or explicit, in-game to this intent.
Looking at those facts, it's fair to say that reading between the lines is entirely justified in this case. If you choose to not read in between said lines, then that's your loss.

There are contradictions in-game to this supposed "evidence"

1. The Temple censored The Real Barenziah. There's obviously an aversion to that sort of sixually explicit thing.

2. TES III was never re-rated M. Hence parts of the sermons have never been truly confirmed to be sixual passages.

3. As I said before, Armigers respond to admiration in a heterosixual manner. Also, one of them is in a secret affair with the duke's daughter.

4. There are three brothers among the Armigers. Given that it's probably a family thing for them, it's probably nothing more than a holy warrior order.

» Sun Mar 27, 2011 5:49 am

Personally I think the whole innuendo aspect has been blown out of proportion regarding Morrowind. Not only did Bethesda avoid an M Rating, but the Temple even censored The Real Barenziah.

Way to miss the point.

He talks about sophistication and philosophy to show that it is intended for a mature audience and all you do is mention a rating. The rating however deals with violence and explicit sixual content, it deals with with is unsuitable for teens though but the ERSB does not deal with what can be understood by teens.

And most of the evidence I give is denounced as "gameplay mechanics" or "doesn't count". It's all just reluctance to go against the time-honored practice of taking everything in the Sermons as both completely true and as sixually-charged as it can be interpreted. But at least to me, in-game evidence seems far more concrete than a few design notes, obscure books, and a few hints dropped by some ex-dev.

Calling him an ex-dev seems a little strange considering the context. Micheal Kirkbride worked on Morrowind to create the concept art and writing. He also worked on Oblivion, most notably Mankars rant and commentaries as well as Knights of the Nine but that is irrelevant right now.

In the game the Armigers are a group of dedicated but lighthearted squares who pattern themselves on Vivec. If you take their, the promiscuous nature of the Dunmer and Vivecs bisixuality into account, then when you compare Vivecs to Almelexias Hands it is easy to see that they are more then soldiers.

So now if you add that not so subtle hint with it. It is easy to see how the ~~Buoyant~~ ~~[censored]~~ Happy Squares are Vivecs army of lovers. This isn't even a very odd concept as there has always been http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sacred_Band_of_Thebes.

I've already explained to you the concept of 'Shades of Grey' and the general lay out of the story in the Sermons. You also seem to be fammilair with other religious writings so it shouldn't be so hard to take the spirit from the words rather then their literal meaning. In other words, you know how to read them.

» Sun Mar 27, 2011 2:46 am

In the game the Armigers are a group of dedicated but lighthearted squares who pattern themselves on Vivec. If you take their, the promiscuous nature of the Dunmer and Vivecs bisixuality into account, then when you compare Vivecs to Almelexias Hands it is easy to see that they are more then soldiers.

They aren't like the Hands. The Hands are elite bodyguards who rarely leave Almalexia's side, and not one is on Vvardenfell. The Armigers are a military order that scout the less hospitable regions, garrison frontier outposts, and fight the Temple's enemies. There are no Armigers within a significent distance of Vivec, and either way, Molag Bal can assume the form of either gender. And then there's the other evidence I've given.

Edit: And furthermore, it's not like the High Ordinators are Almalexia's consorts. Even she can settle for six at a time.

So now if you add that not so subtle hint with it. It is easy to see how the ~~Buoyant~~ ~~[censored]~~ Happy Squares are Vivecs army of lovers. This isn't even a very odd concept as there has always been http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sacred_Band_of_Thebes.
I've already explained to you the concept of 'Shades of Grey' and the general lay out of the story in the Sermons. You also seem to be fammilair with other religious writings so it shouldn't be so hard to take the spirit from the words rather then their literal meaning. In other words, you know how to read them.

Shades of grey are one thing. But interpreting everything as the same sixual-charged content is another. There's no one sure-fire way to interpret such things, even with MK, because there's it's been established that the Sermons can't be completely factual, so it is up to the reader to decide the rest. That's the beauty of TES and the books. But your interpretation isn't the only way, nor is mine.