That was one of the weirdest things I've read in a long time.

Wow... That was...*sneeze*... a wonderfully unsual read.

I also had one too many stars... Oops... That couldn't have helped... My apologies...



It's not a conventional book...

Semantics, unnecessary exclusion. Shor/Shezzar/Lorkhan is explicitly the Champion of Men; this is doubly important since this came from events in a formative kalpa... It also doesn't mean that's ALL he is, of course. A person can wear more than one hat, indeed must do. But mythically, it's paramount, particularly for those mantling him or for his avatars. Remember, I was and am talking in the context of Shezzarines, avatars of Shor/Lorkhan and the mythic position of Talos in the Cyrodiilic pantheon.




No.

Tribunal -> Heart of Lorkhan (pulling themselves up by their own ankles is what their untrue doctrine would have the Dunmer believe i.e Godhood through innate virtue, but it's nonsense)

Vivec -> Not Azuran.

Pelinal = Shezzar (= Akatosh), an avatar in the same vein as Ysmir, so not even moving in the same direction as the others.



Also, strictly speaking, worship =/= power. This isn't Forgotten Realms. The Gods impose. Mortal 'worship/belief/mythic conception' can influence the form but it doesn't determine them absolutely. There is deterministic feedback too, since the Gods embody fundamental concepts of the Mundus which mortals are (mostly) bound up in and ruled by (dirt, dirt, dirt...).

I reckon you don't understand what a Kalpa really represents. Lorkhan, if anything, is the profane falsehood of men. Even if we WERE to take the previous Kalpa into account, who the hell could possibly know who the true Champion of THAT Kalpa was, or the one before it, or the one before that one, or if Jennifer Love Hewitt's left nipble was the true pro-creator of any sort of sustainable time? True, without him there wouldn't be any men, but same goes for all et'Ada, and if you're a Redguard looking inward, you'd be shaking your head in disgust. It's all a point of perspective, really. Ask a Nord, and Shor is a bastard. But he makes them what they are, snow-warriors. He's just an overseer in their confide, and using the term 'Champion' is horribly redundant. Champion of Cyrodiil? How about just another aspect-freer. You see what I'm getting at?

Also, the Tribunal DID pull on their own ankles, hell, they pulled on a whole NATION'S ankles. They Mantled in a secretive way. Vivec pulled on his own ankles because the true [censored] of Azura was an act of Tower-Hopping. And Pelinal pulled on his own ankles because, well look at the guy; he's s cyborg from perhaps, dare we say it...a FUTURE Kalpa. If you can even say there are future Kalpas at all. But either way, he used his own testament of Will to get stuck into history, ie: pulling his own ankles. It's the men that saw it happen that keep him alive.

And by saying worship doesn't equal power, you're throwing the Loveletter out the window, and you're saying that the Daedra have no reason at all to be pissed as hell at the Chimeric ancestors.

And would that be such a bad thing? HA HA HAH!

Also, remember that Azuara at least is a petty psucho-[censored]. It's not neccessarily that she becomes less powerful if the Dunmer/Chimer don't worship her, she's just a jealous [censored]. Who'se to say the others aren't like that, to an extent? If you'd been worshipped uninterrupted for centuries, would you feel miffed if three crazy [censored]s made themselves gods by leeching on another god and stole your worshippers, wether they gave you power or not?

Actually it's still never been extensively detailed in lore, even in the thread on that topic made here by MK himself. Unless you actually are him or have a direct secret pipeline to him, then I'd say my interpretation is as good as yours, in as much as anything subjective can be 'good' and in as much as it relates to knowns.

What we do know is that kalpas are part of The Way Things Turn. An action of change on the whole (and not a force for change), but one that involves solidifying myths for future. Gods are reimagined/reformed/removed, cut+pasted. Peoples too. Even places. The Merethic Era, for the most relevant example to the thread, i.e Shor and his Sons, or Lorkhan and his avatars if you prefer. Particularly in the context of Lorkhan + cohorts vs Auriel + cohorts.



One hat. An elven hat too, at that.

Don't overlook the fact that I acknowledged plurality last post. It's not worth you presenting "but Lorkhan's this from this perspective!" as if it were a counter-argument because it's simply not in contention.



Which you must, because history sets mythic patterns.



The concept of 'true' Champion is not something I've used or would try to use because it's essentially meaningless, at least in the sense of 'One Exclusive Peerless Champion'. I don't know why you would bring it up.



The Redguards have their own pantheon. Talos doesn't feature in it. Nor Shezzar - or at least, not explicitly as in other pantheons. The Hoon-Ding may be a manifestation, Diagna an avatar. But as such it's been outside all my commentary so far. But it may be interesting to consider Hoon-Ding and Diagna on this thread, so thank you for bringing that angle in.



Overseer = just one hat.



Only from one perspective, and it's just another hat.. Also not redundant when Mantling as a Champion. It helps grit the road.



Again, hats.



No.

Again, the Tribunal brute-forced it via the Heart (and arguably, in some people's opinions, partly through Mage-Thief-Warrior, though this may be tenuous). They couldn't have done it without the Heart. It wasn't innate.

Vivec was Godly already, and again, use of an outside element, not innate. It's the difference between climbing a cliff with a rope or pulling yourself up to the top by your ankles.

Pelinal was an Avatar, already an aspect of divinity, doesn't need pulling up, is moving in the opposite direction.



No. For starters, the Loveletter is far from explicit on this, to put it mildly. In fact the 'love' it refers to has love going in the opposite direction and refers to Godhead, New Man, the All rather than 'lesser spirits' like the Aedra and Daedra. Your claim doesn't address the qualifiers I gave either, which still stand.

We know the Aedra can be shaped by mortals. The extent of this - whether it's limited to extreme examples like the Maruhkati Selective only, or also more subtle things as in the shifting of Nord conceptions to the Alessian pantheon (which may be Dragon Broken anyway, 8 stars falling, but I digress) - is still up for grabs, but this is not the same thing as mortal adoration creating godly power. Likewise for the Daedra, though they are a seperate case. Fascinated by mortals and Nirn, they crave worship and attention. But do they NEED it? Is it a vital sustenance? Seperated from Creation as they are, it doesn't seem supportable.

If they gain power from worship, why aren't the gods worship prosttutes? If they're gaining power from worship then these little gods are just pissants.

Also, look at the Tribunal. They are woeshipped by only one nation of people (not even the whole thing!) and are pretty well powerful, same with Dagoth Ur. They get thier power from the heart. Vivec claims it's through love and worship he gets his power, but of course everything out of his mouth is pure [censored] and he said that to cover the fact that since he lost the tools they would lose po9wer while dagoth Ur did. Political move in it's entirety. If you were a king, immortal or not, would you admit it was your fault that your most powerful weapon was lost and your most deadly enemy had taken it? No, you'd say it was something else, preferably something that would keep the people in line to give you time to try and get it back.

Again, I point to the Loveletter, or Lie Rock. Also, look at Talos as compared to Herma Mora. Worship = power.

Again I point to anything outta Vivec's mouth, or anything influenced by his ideas, is probably [censored]. The whole point of Vivec is that he is a deciever. Not to mention, Vivec was more powerful than hermaeus mora if you look at it from the standpoint of an average mortal, and Mora is worshipped a little everywhere. Vivec is worshipped by half of one country.

Also, I tend to ignore the loveletter. Just more cryptic MKult [censored].

Love and worship are a factor. You can notice it through Ayems desire to be loved, it's Vivec's justification for waging war on the Nerevarine. They are however not the only source of power. The heart is another. Just as the mythic symbolism through the anticipations, and the spirits of the ancestors holding up the ghost fence.

But nevermind the Tribunal. The Aedra are shaped by the believes of the people! Too the point that they fight on both sides and against themselves. The Daedra are a reflection of the dark side of humanity, they don't have to "[censored]" for worship, we are fundamental to their existence.

Wilful ignorance doesn't suit you Tropes.

Come on! Have we spent so long apart you forgot my kind of fun? Of COURSE it's a factor, I just like to screw with people, offer the other view. Remember? Usually my actual opinion is somewhere between what I'm arguing for and what I'm arguing against. If everyone just says the same thing, there's barely a game to be played!

As I see it, it's definitely something gods do. They are powerful, but to influence the mortal world, they do need someone worshipping them to act through. Even the Daedra do, to an extent. If Dagon could have just brute forced through to attack Nirn, he would have, but he needed followers to do his dirty work until they could anchor on Nirn. The Aedra need it even more, being god-dead and all. Then there's the funnymen, like Talos. He can not only appear in mortal form (has done so twice since his apotheosis) but act and influence people while there. Then the tribunal. I figure they have the least dependence on worshippers, since they are literally self-made gods. Almalexia simply feels unloved, she has a void inside and a desire to see it filled. Her curse is that she always betrays whoever she turns to, accidentally it seems. That's why she slept with her hand (Bow chicka bow wow) and why she had the Nerevarine murder him. They like to be worshipped, and maybe it does make them stronger, but I think only the Aedra would be reduced to worthlessness if they were not worshipped.

Can't all Aedra cloak themselves in an avatar?

I know this thread is 10 days old, but perhaps someone here can explain something to me. If the Aedra are truly weaker than the Daedra, and the Daedra are immortal while the Aedra have lost their immortality, a question comes to my mind.

How did two Aedra, after they "fell" so to speak, become Daedra? How did "falling" or being banished or being disgraced, make them more powerful and regain their immortality? The two Aedra I speak of are Trinimac and Meridia. Trinimac was eaten and crapped out and that somehow made him more powerful and immortal again and made him a Deadra? Meridia did some naughty things and was punished by being made more powerful and immortal? Very confusing. And doesn't this imply that the other Aedra could somehow regain their immortality as well in the future?

And an extra question. Is Talos an Aedra or something else? And like the Aedra, can he die if killed?

And one more extra question. What did The King of Worms become? What kind of divinity is he? Aedra? Daedra? And can his divine self be killed? As opposed to his mortal, still human self, of course (The Warp of the West and all).

Sorry if I sound like the new player from Hades, but these are things I am very curious about.

Thanks in advance.

It's not that the Aedra are inherently weaker. They're participation in the Mundus limits them. We have no indication that Trinimac was one of the eight Aedra who sacrificed parts of themselves to form the mortal plane, so perhaps he was simply freed from his obligation to serve as Akatosh's champion. I don't think Meridia ever had any contact with Mundus at all- she was an Aetheric spirit and not a founder.

Mannimarco became a lunar object orbiting the Mundus, essentially an attendant spirit within the mortal plane, with no specific classification.

There are a few hints in the Monomyth, the Aldudagga and the Census of Daedra Lords that the et'Ada who became the Daedra were actually changed by the creation of Mundus.

Ok, thanks, I appreciate that. So is that what Talos became also, an "attendant spirit within the mortal plane" as well? Can Mannimarco and Talos be destroyed?

Again, I appreciate your response, it does help clear things up, but it also seems to indicate that its a gross generalization for the books and literature to say that "the Aedra can be killed", without any sort of specific qualification. Maybe the literature should say that SOME Aedra can be killed.

I also find myself wondering if the

You don't have to do the spoiler tags. This is the lore forum.

For Talos, you might want to read this discussion. You don't become a god in the same fashion as you would accept a position on the board of directors. You have to leverage existing mythological structures.

http://www.gamesas.com/bgsforums/index.php?showtopic=984173

Thanks Prowler, that's good to know. Also thanks for the link, that was some very interesting reading. Elder Scrolls Lore really is complex. I hadn't really realized that Martin was thought to have Apotheosized. Has he become a child of Akatosh, or a "Ghost of Akatosh" or somehow just a part of Him?

I found the Nu-Hatta of the Sphinxmoth Inquiry Tree to be pretty fascinating, too, with that whole group of Mortals-Turned-Gods giving their two cents about the various ways to achieve Apotheosis (without a whole lot of forthright honesty, I noticed). I had no idea that its possible that Arkay could also fall under that category as well.

And now it looks like we can add Martin and the Champion of Cyrodiil to that list with their own methods of achieving it, only they would be honest in not mentioning any sort of theft. A nice switch from most of the others (the other exception of course being the Nerevarine and possibly Arkay). Thanks again!

Martin:

I don't believe Martin became a god. It seems he gave him self up to bring Akatosh into Nirn but I can't find any apotheosis in it.

Arkay:

Lies from a previous age. An other way to say, that the story from Daggerfall (The God Ar'kay) isn't that accurate any more. If you compare him to Tu'Whaca (Yokudan God of Souls) you can see it's now an allegory of how the et'Ada found a purpose in the creation of Nirn (his death) and became the god of it.

Nerevarine:

Not a god, at least not in the sense that anybody will ever worship you the player. He does however leave a large amount of uncertainty in his wake where no one can tell for certain what he or she looked like or did.

Will probebly be venerated as a saint like Nerevar is venerated though.

Its pretty interesting. What exactly IS a Saint in the Elder Scrolls universe?

Anyway, when I saw that the Nerevarine said something about being Incarnated into a Pantheon, I simply assumed he was referring to himself as the reincarnation of St. Nerevar, who is listed as being a part of the Morrowind Pantheon, even though he isn't a full blown god. I guess I have assumed that the Saints of TES Lore were more akin to demi-gods than to the saints of mainstream "real world" religions.

Edit: Oh, and BTW, it wasn't JUST that piece of literature that made me say what I said about Arkay, though what I read there prompted me to do a search. I wound up reading the legend about Arkay starting out as a mortal shop keeper, though I did make note that its likely allegoric rather than actual history.

We're not quite sure, but given the way the Dunmer and Cyrodils treat them, probably something close to the generic definition in the real world. Dead holy mortals you can pray to.

And I can see that, but from what I can also see, there seems to be an element of henotheism in the way deities are dealt with in TES lore. Not just in the focus on one god or spirit while acknowledging that others exist, but also in that at least where the Nine are concerned, the beliefs and worship of Mortals seem to affect them fundamentally, but a part of me suspects that this is not just limited to the Nine. One of the in-game books that I read awhile back, really emphasized that in a major way. I think it was "An Overview of Gods and Worship", the last three paragraphs especially. This is why I also wonder if its possible that upon their deaths, the Tribinal became gods in their own right, without the need for the Heart of Lorkhan. I think its very possible that we have not heard the last of them, especially Vivec and Almalexia. Azura may have made a very grave mistake when she made it her mission to bring them down. I do not say that because I dislike her either, in fact she is one of my favorites, but I see what I see. If that whole Trial of Vivec thing (which was very confusing) is actual canon, then Vivec seriously b**** slapped her without the aid of the Heart.

I guess the point that I am trying to make with all of the above, is that I think Saints in TES lore are probably a bit more (in that universe) than what Saints are, doctrinally speaking, in "the real world", just based on the followings that they (the Saints in TES lore) have. I hope I make sense.

Then the champion of Cyrodiil is the Shezzarinerine