How many -ines are there in Lore, and what is their meaning?

Those two and they mean what they say minus -ine. (An instantiation/aspect/reincarnation of the deity/person.)

Isn't there a Mara®ine somewhere along a Morrowind questline, or doesn't she count?

She was an avatar of Mara, not a reincarnation. Like John Hawker (the Zenithar avatar in the game) and Wulf (the Tiber Septim/Talos avatar), she disappears after speaking to/testing the Nerevarine.

The Shezzarine is Pelinal Whitestrake, alternately known as Hans the Fox, Harrald Harry-Breaks and various other names. He is supposedly a mortal avatar of the god Shor, who is the representation of Lorkhan in the Imperial Religion. The Nerevarine is a modern reincarnation of the Dunmer culture-hero Indoril Nerevar, who may have been a mortal or who may have been a powerful lesser Aedra or Daedra in disguise. It's never made perfectly clear who he was or exactly why he had the power to reincarnate, but he seems to be strongly tied with Azura's sphere.

edit: As far as I know only a reincarnation of a powerful culture-hero counts as an "ine". The avatars of Talos, Mara and Zenithar are just avatars of gods, not true reincarnations.

He believed it, but that's not a proofe. I for my self don't think, that a mad imperial knight is the reincarnation of my favourite god.

Was it not just when Azura cursed the Chimer making them Dunmer, she claimed she would cause Nerevar to be reborn and make things right?

Yes, she did claim that in one version of the story. However, it seems unlikely that a Daedric Prince could reach into Aeuthurius (spelling please?) and retrieve a soul at will unless it was of a person already bound to her realm as a servant of some sort.




It seems that in Tamriel, strong enough Belief coupled with Willpower makes things true. He walked like Shor until Shor had to walk like Him.

didn't a guy get smothered by birds for claiming Pelinal was the Shezzarine?

At the moment, there's a nerevarine, which is someone believed to be Nerevar reborn. That is his title, or his truth. work that one out.

Assuming Pelinal is/was the Shezzarine, then the CoC is also, since he is hailed by Tiber Septim (of course that's who that is!) as "Pelinal Whitestrake reborn." So you're the Pelinaline who is the Shezzarine (maybe). Or I'm running in really tiny cocentric circles that will eventually wind up in the shape of MUATRA.

That's probably just hyperbole...you're not the Shezzarine. You speak to his spirit, for crying out loud. That strongly suggests you're merely following in his footsteps, as his spirit still exists in an outer realm.

Talos is simply hyping you up to be more than you are. He's the weaker spirit between the two, being a mere servant in the endeavor to create Nirn as it is, whereas Lorkhan is the Architect. I doubt Talos could fathom the true nature or motivations of the Missing God.

Well, you speak to his spirit, yes, but let's go and work on the nature of these incarnates, eh? Now, if you assume that the Nerevarine is both Nerevar reborn and thier own person with thier own thoughts, feelings and motivations, then it is concievable that until you began fulfilling prophecies left and right only a piece of his spirit was in the Nerevarine. The same may be true of pelinal, that only some of his spirit resided in the CoC's until very late in the game (both literally and metaphorically).

Also, who'se to say a spirit can't be in more than one place or person (if it's a godly spirit) at once? How do we know it wasn't some elaborate scheme by Pelinal to get Umaril down for the count?

Is being an '-ine' what you get when you do the enantiomorph thing? Or is this '-ine' stuff different?

Maybe not enantiomorph so much as mantling?

The Shezarrine and the Nerevarine were simply born.

So we are mantling Pelinal when we attack Umaril?

Wulfharth (aka Ysmir) is an avatar of Lorkhan too. (Interestingly he is also described with draconic elements, including in an unofficial MK piece posted on the forums a while back. This aligns too with the 8th Song of Pelinal. The Lorkhan-Akatosh link seems to exist for the avatars as much as the originals.)


Talos moves in the opposite direction to a Shezzarine - he goes from mortal to God (mantling), and his role in the Imperial pantheon is basically the same as Shezzar's and Shor's because he is the champion of Men.

But what makes someone a figure of men other than the men themselves?

You could just as easily say Cyrus the Restless was champion of men, or that the Nerevarine was champion of elves.

I think it all comes down to the (God)Head. Look at it from Lorkhan's point of view:

Everyone who was important throughout history was just gaining back another aspect of him, and some did it even indirectly. (Pelinal, Alessia, Talos, some random Nord who decided to fart next to a mountain, etc etc.) While some did so directly. (Nerevarine, WOTW, CoC.)

we are imitating him, but i dont think it goes far enough to qualify as mantling. afaik, manteling makes you into that person (or rather that person into you...) and by the end of the KotN MQ people see you are a dude who resurected a knightly order and killed an ayleid dude, not Pelinal Come Again, bloody hole laser arm and all :shrug:

im sorta misty on the concept, correct me if i am mistaken.

Tangerine.... The reincarnation of the mighty Mandarin

But why is this a 'but', and why discount the figure itself? Shor wasn't the champion of Men just because of Men. If that were so then the mantling of Talos wouldn't have been possible.



Mythically, no. You can't raise yourself up just by pulling on your own ankles.



All a question of perspective, degrees and directness. Shezzarines are a particular of each.

Shor ISN'T the champion of men, really. He's the overseer. And Mantling goes beyond Men. You still need the Men or Man in perspective to Mantle any way. Placing yourself in someones position is nothing other than trading space with them so well that no one can know the difference.





Really? Seems like that's what the Tribunal did, and even more so, Vivec did with Azura. Hell, look at Pelinal. It's just a matter of the MEN themselves who keep the process going strong. You're forgetting that worship = power, not magick = power.





Everything is a perspective, just matters who's looking under the gigantic microscope...or in this case, Mangus-Hole.

What did Vivec do?

It seems like hes referring to Vivec r**ing Azura

EDIT: Sorry, just had to get rid of one of the stars...

Ehh, I have absolutely no idea which word you're censuring, but I guess that's for the best...

What did Vivec do?

Abnaxus, read http://www.imperial-library.info/characters/trial_vivec.shtml.