I agree with most of what you say, though I do think armor skills are relevant for different armor types. However, I don't think they should be categorized in skill by 'light', 'medium' and 'heavy'. Armor skills should be broken down into what type they are (e.g. cloth, leather, chain, plate, etc.). Either that, or armor skills should reflect one's ability to move in such armor, and how accustomed one is to their encumberance. For exampe, flexible armor (such as leather) would give you more freedom of movement, whereas semi-rigid (such as chain) would impede movement more than flexible armor, but less than rigid armor (such as plate).

This would be better. Rather than increasing your AR so that a character with 100 skill wearing leather is better protected than someone with 05 skill wearing plate the AR for armour types should be constant but armour types should come with penalties to speed and agility that skill would partly offset.

Make it The Unreal World style: different weapons do different kind of damage, and different armor protects accordingly. Damage types are slashing, piercing, blunt, tear (animal claws), squeeze and fire. Squeeze damage is needed only if some enemies like orges are capable of grabbing you... Fire should be extented to frost, lightning and acid... if your armor can have any protection from magic projectiles.

In Armour tab you see the color coded picture of your body, with each body part displayed. You can choose to view the different damage types the armor protects from, or just overall protection. http://img685.imageshack.us/img685/5274/armorf.png

In URW the wounds are also based on the weapon: from punctures and fractures to dismemberment. TES5 might not need to go that far.

I did more or less say as much in a http://www.gamesas.com/index.php?/topic/1085551-new-armor-system-in-tes-v/page__view__findpost__p__15833093. One possibility for multiple armor types when you've only got one major armor skill is to add them as a sort of perk; instead of having to reach a certain level in Evasion: Armored you find a trainer, probably someone from the fighter's guild for common things. Increased level in the skill removes some of the penalty, while the relevant perk reduces more, perhaps reducing requirements for that particular type. More exotic stuff like daedric or chitin might be harder to learn, but you could still equip them and benefit from the skill. To go a little off-topic into character creation, perhaps when selecting a skill you could choose which of its perks you start out with (others being learnable in the game world), which major skills letting you take the most. It would be incentive for a tank character to actually take the skill instead of using it passively, by being able to use most armor effectively from the start.

I also think they should take a step back and take the Morrowind approach with more armor pieces like individual pauldrons, gauntlets etc.

Other than that, I think it would be more interesting if armor wasn't simply a boost of HP. I think it would be cool if armor, depending on quality and condition, added resistance to damage instead. A powerful weapon would be able to cut, almost unhindered, through leather armor. Whereas a dull weapon would hardly penetrate good quality armor. But when the armor does fail your limbs can only take a certain amount of damage before it gets crippled. It would be really cool if you could hit a guys leg and see him limb away. In previous ES games you could go crazy on a guys leg and he could still walk perfectly.

It's just a detail really, but it would be cool nontheless.

Anyway, back on topic: More individual armor pieces, like in Morrowind.



BTW: I also think boots should be individual. Could lead to some pretty interesting quests... "That thieving Khajiit stole my shoe! Go get him will ya?"

The seperate boots wouldn't work, first of all I doubt anyone wants to wear different boots, whilst alot of poeple like to mix pauldrons and gloves... besides that it would look really stupid with one boot and one foot hovering above the ground

On armor skills, one idea I'm toying around with in regards to an ES tabletop ruleset is the idea of armor skills not really influencing how protected you are so much as influencing just how much that wearing armor of a given type impacts certain other skills - Athletics, Acrobatics, Sneak, perhaps the various magic skills, so on - with higher levels of an armor skill letting you reduce or eliminate the armor check penalty from wearing it. If you're naturally gifted in attributes that control skills affected by armor, or if you simply don't give a darn about the skills that get penalized for wearing armor, you can just bypass armor skills outright.

One other reason I'm glad as hell the clownsuit system from Morrowind's gone and hopefully won't make a return is that it increases the amount of clutter that you have to go through in regards to a base suit of armor by almost 40% while insinuating a couple of lapses of logic - like who in their right mind is going to seperate a good and sound pair of gauntlets or pauldrons, for instance (besides Vivec, but he's got problems of his own - even that nutjob Almalexia can dress herself properly, for what little it's worth). And the only gauntlets/pauldrons that don't come as a pair's Wraithguard and one of those horny fist gauntlets, the second of which was an oversight by the devs, so it ain't like the devs are giving you much in the way of incentive to go all mis-matched outside of the plot mcguffen.

Segregating items that normally come in pairs makes no sense from a logicical standpoint, and it makes no sense from a game design standpoint, and Bethesda thankfully nipped that brainfart in the bud.

EDIT: And Infernal makes another good point - nobody wants to wear boots from two different sets because that would only screw up your ability to move effectively because of different thicknesses, flexabilities and weights. So why wear different gauntlets and pauldrons when that would only screw up your sense of balance and your ability to handle things with both hands? All it does is make you look like a clown or something out of some hack's Deviantart account.

We need rare armour, not just generic armour that is everywhere.

I liked medium armour. Light armour should be armour that can be pierced, like leather and chitin. Medium armour should be light-weight (not as light as light armour, though) but offer decent protection, and Heavy armour should be weighty armour that can't be broken. Medium is the comprimised middle.

Just my opinion, I know it isn't gonna be in TESV, due to the majority, though.


Off Topic: Don't eat me, no offense, but why is there such a lack of U's in American spelling?

I dont care for Left and Right but i would like to wear Pauldrons and Clothes with my armour.

Because American English spelling is more phonetic than that of English English. Silly idea if you ask me. Wheres the fun in having a language thats easy and logical to learn?

Making the light armour easy to penetrate by weapons on principle, while making the heavy armour almost impenetrable might be a step forward in realisticness, but huge leap backwords in roleplaying quality in my opinion. Making one armour type superiour to others without compensation (and no, difference in weight do not count as compensation right now and I have not yet seen an idea that would change this sensibly) effectively forces us to use it. If heavy armour is only (or almost only) affected by blunt weapons then what reason do I have to play anything else then a warhammer wielding heavy armour clad worrior?
TES V should not be a medieval warfare simulator, it should be an RPG, where you can make your choices and they are viable. I want to go through the game as a light armour clad assassin with a dagger as a primary weapon and feel I can beat the game just as easily as a fighter in a heavy armour.

So as far as I'm concerned, the armour system should work more or less as it always did in any good RPG. The heavy armour provides somewhat better OVERALL armourclass, while it weights more and so on. And yes, return us the medium armour. Again, it is about the choices you can make not their realistic quality.

The more I think about it, the more I would like to see an armor system similar to Mass Effect 2's. The armor has definitive stat bonuses, but not at the expense of customization.

Because...let's be honest how many of us choose to equip a piece of armor based on looks rather than stats?

How about use Morrowind style system, but with a ME2 type armor tweaking system?

A different take:

Oblivion actually got Armor skills "somewhat right". It just implemented the positives sub-optimally. I can find no evidence how Morrowind acts on one score, but the one I can confirm is the "bad" behavior or armor skills.

What might have been a better system for Oblivion (and going forward) is that damage resistance is fixed per armor, but degradation is not. Heavy armor basically has a crapton of item health compared to light armor, regardless of resistance. (Basically, Iron armor degrades slower than glass, even if it provides little protection by comparison). Now, you have a skill of 5 in light armor. Fur armor barely protects you, even though it offers some DR. 5 to 10 hits is all it can handle. you stick with constantly repairing it because you don't want to be a tin can. Your skill rises to 10. Degradation is still high, but your armor is lasting longer because you're now degrading 10 to 20% slower than before. You stick with it, and reach a skill of 25. Now you're seeing a reasonable degradation rate, as you've learned to use the armor more correctly, and are working with the armor, rather than inspite of it.

Now, on the other hand, you try to cheat just to see how game balance works. You dump some glass armor on the same character (restarted) and see how it works. Well, the degradation rate will be high, both because glass is fragile, and because you're really unskilled. In fact, in this case, it's even worse than Fur: your degradation rate improves much, much more slowly. This effectively offers a tradeoff to using exceptional armors early on: your skill in that type is possibly inadequate to properly care for the armor in combat. The "end point" is equal for all types, in that if you finish with 50% or normal degradation, all armors do so. However, the normal point would be different for different styles. Let's say "Leather" versus "Imperial Leather". Well, on the surface, they shouldn't be too different. However, the "Imperial" implies a mass-produced armor designed around being issued to an army, perhaps of conscripts, with the need for quick adaptation. Therefore, you'd expect the design to be extremely natural, so that the conscripts or feudal levies can get decent usage and mileage out of the armor with a minimum of training. Therefore, a lower threshold for normal wear, but probably only by a few levels. (say, 20 vs 25).

You perks, then, essentially would have been, say, "Light Armor = 50 -> Improving Light Armor skill now decreases the encumberance from equipped armor", rather than "Skill = 75. Light Armor weighs nothing when equipped", etc.

Heavy Armor would go through a similar thing, except that heavy armor would likely have a much flatter line for degradation, and a much steeper one for affecting movement.

Note that I have not worked out equations for any of this. It's just an idea that Oblivion's perks actually went the way the skill SHOULD work.

One other thing I'd like to see for armor and clothing is the option to paint/dye it like Fable 2 had. This would be easily accomplished by using grayscale textures and color values, rather than completely different textures. Heck, I even know how to do it in Unity 3D, so Bethesda wouldn't have a hard time with it.

As for damage, location-based damage with location-based armor would make things really fun. The enemy has an awesome suit with one majorly-armored arm, but one armor-free arm for spellcasting. Target that arm, and you have a better chance of disabling it.

Sure. I just mean like simplifying what kind of advantages you get from each piece. Like removing armor rating and armor skills altogether and replacing them with a general "defense" skill. That way people could wear whatever armor they think looks coolest or whatever is more appropriate for their character without feeling pressured to upgrade to something they don't like just so they can get that +10 on their armor rating. Basically, not penalizing you for roleplaying, which is ostensibly what RPGs are about.

I agree with a lot of what you've said. One thing I've always liked is the idea that light armor allows its wearer to move quicker and quieter than other forms of armor. No one should be able to sneak well while wearing chainmail or platemail. Stealth and Sneak were handled fairly well in Oblivion, but I would love to see it expanded a lot more. A stealthy assassin should be able to move virtually unheard. Along with that, I believe one who wears lighter armor should be able to move faster and dodge some damage from incoming attacks. Your PC should respond much slower to your commands if you are wearing a full suit of heavy armor. Running and jumping should be less effective as well. If done well (improved steath, sneak, dodge, and PC movement, etc.), this could be used as compensation for having chosen lighter armor. You should have to decide if you want less armor protection, while gaining mobility and stealth, or choose greater armor protection, but have less freedom of movement, dodging ability and stealth.

what should happen is light armor should give you no penalties while wearing them because theyre basically reinforced clothing. they are lightweight which is somewhat of a plus but the skill for them could go as such increasing light armor makes them degrade slower because as a previous person said you learn to work with your armor to keep it in shape and it should also have it encumber u less while it basically becomes a second skin maybe at a milestone of lets say 75 in the skill it doesnt encumber you at all. as you start to become a master it could even give you some bonuses in athletics and acrobatics maybe even sneaking because you start to feel more comfortable in your armor than you do without it.

medium armor should have slight penalties to acrobatics, athletics, sneak, speed and agility but they offer more base protection, a slight protection against blunt weapons as they can distribute the damage and a slight penalty to blade weapons for the reason they are easily penetrated. as you increase this skill it would have the armor degrade less over time, the encumberence be less probably up to a maximum of 25% of its original weight while wearing it and when you become a master or close to a master it would offer no more penalties (not including the one to blade weapons).

heavy armor should have larger penalties to acrobatics, athletics, sneak, speed and agility but have the highest base protection, a slight protection against blunt weapons but less than the protection offered by mediu armor ( I say slight because yes plate armor was not the best at distributing the blunt force of a hammer but it still distributed that force enough to make a difference), and a large protection against blade weapons. As you level up this sill the degradation of the armor should slow and the encumberence should decrease while you are wearing them (probably to a maximum of 50%). Also the penalties should decrease but never go away because it doesn't really matter how well trained you are to fight in heavy armor you will not be able to move as well as you do in a shirt.

I've thought about revising this based on types of armor because elven armor is very light but it fits the classification of a platemail but to be honest whatever it doesnt matter.

I don't think many people would exploit it like that. I know I won't (I mostly use what powergamers would think of as useless enchantments e.g. 'The shield of shielding or a ring of spontanious combustion (and then wear it...)).

One armor "skill" should be more than enough to represent how well your character is able to "move" in armor. How the actual weight of the armor affects your ability to avoid getting hit should be a matter for the combat system, and how "flexible" the particular suit is in relation to its weight should also affect your ability do dodge and maneuver.

Bethesda should rebalance BOTH the combat and armor systems, so that heavier armor reduces more damage, but makes you MORE likely to get hit in the first place. Armor "skill" would allow you to wear heavier armor and still be able to evade attacks with some degree of success, so you'd have to draw some compromise in weight based on your character's strength and armor skill versus dodging skill and agility.

Armor types should offer TRADEOFFS between, weight, flexibility, durability, cost, and ease of repair. A character should be able to choose an armor set (or pieces) that compliment his or her abilities, NOT have to wear whatever the next "better" set is in the linear progression of equipment that the overly-scaled game throws at you this level. Morrowind had several significantly different choices from the beginning, even within each "class" of L/M/H. I generally chose an armor type that fit the character, REGARDLESS of its actual stats (OK, a few were SO bad that I couldn't really use them, but anyway....). Most of my character selected their armor mostly on the basis appearance and overall RP reasons (sure, Glass has absurdly high stats, but that Newtscale Cuirass fits this character perfectly). Morrowind's armor stats were very haphazardly implemented, even within a "set", and I don't recommend going back to that same old hodge-podge that passed for a "system", but its flexibility and variety was something that I sorely missed in OB.

BTW - the point about having all those extra items to enchant in MW is partially meaningless. In MW, each item could only hold a limited number of enchantment points, and Pauldrons and Gauntlets in particular weren't very useful in that regard. About all you could fit on them was a weak "Cast on Use" utility enchantment (they took those out of OB, too). In OB, you could put whatever strength enchantment your Sigil Stone had onto any item that would accept that enchantment form (Cast on Target, Cast on Strike, or Constant Effect).

As far as weight not being enough of a detriment...I disagree. It's how you implement the negatives of weight.

For instance, I HATE how heavy armor somehow negates the magical flow of energy, as if it's some kind of resistor.

The reason mages wouldn't wear armor in real life (yes, I know how stupid that sounds) is because they are not trained to use it. The are weak and frail from years spent bent over books and alchemy sets and they just don't have the physical strength to wear it. They COULD, and it WOULD stop the first sword thrust...but then they'd collapse with exhaustion and be done with.

Not that you can't have a mage who somehow did train with it (battle mages, spell swords) but, in turn they have to give up that slot which could have been used for another magical skill.

But back to my original point. Yes, leather armor should be much much weaker than plate. Still much beater than just a cloth shirt. But guess what. If the guy in plate is chasing the guy in leather, he's going to get winded. When your fatigue bar is at zero, you should be on the ground. When it is at 10% you should be able to stand, but barely move.

And if while the guy in plate is chasing the guy in leather, and they both fall off a cliff into a lake? The guy in leather will float and the guy in plate will sink. Of course, all of this should apply to your overall encumbrance rather than simply armor type. If you have 100 strength, you could swim in plate armor, as long as it was only 1/2 or less of your encumbrance. On the other hand, you could drown naked, if you've got over half your encumbrance made up of loot etc.

That actually sounds like a good idea and would add greatly to the RP element and make it even more of a thinking game. Whenever your knight comes across a lake or an underwater tunnel and isn't ridiculously strong, you have to take your armor off and cross your fingers that you don't any powerful creatures of the deep. Or, say you are a thief being chased by heavily armored guards or whomever wearing plate-armor and you do not have very high blunt weapon skill or just no blunt weapon at all, you can lead them to a deep body of water, and if they keep pursuing you they have to take their armor off, making them much easier for your blade-wielding thief to kill.

Someone please correct me if I'm wrong, but all of this talk about needing a Blunt weapon verses Heavy Armor makes me wonder about bows and crossbows. I thought arrows and bolts were very effective at penetrating Heavy Armor like plate mail.

I'm not 100% sure, but I think an arrow cannot penetrate plate armour, but a bolt form a good crossbow can. This is the reason why corssbows became used more when the plate armour became more predominant.