For those that would like to continue the discussion. Mind the usual forum rules, please.

http://www.gamesas.com/eng/news/pressrelease_042709-3.html




http://www.gamesas.com/bgsforums/index.php?showtopic=983446
http://www.gamesas.com/bgsforums/index.php?showtopic=983631
http://www.gamesas.com/bgsforums/index.php?showtopic=984032

Haha Mud! Making with the funnies.

Yes it is, paw prints. It is something of a literary term. Not one I like, either, but it is what it is at present. The differentiation does indeed primarily deal with the type world the novel is set in. Lord of The Rings, with all its lore and appendecies, is considered High Fantasy. . . Conan and the Elric of Melnibone novels are also, for all there debauchery, and moral ambiguity, considered High Fantasy. As is Dragonlance. Harry Potter is not. . . neither is The Word Void Series. But if you disagree so heartily, feel free to elucidate.

Just keying in my thoughts on what has been said of the new novels, and a response to some of the responses I noticed, especially concerning the main plot and main characters.

The floating city is troubling. . . and sounds Like necromancers. . . everyone knows I am a fan of the Daedra. . . plus I always play as Archmage. . .

As to the young ages. .. I know modern times have made us forget, but as late as a century ago, many females, possibly most, were already married and pregnant by 15 or 16. . . like Sacagewa, who was also making a name for herself with Lewis and Clark by that age. . . and many a young male had struck off on his own. So, in an archaic setting like Elder Scrolls, I hardly see it as a problem that teens are the heroes, as the notion of a Teen is really a late 19th and early twentieth century invention. Prior to about the mid eighten hundreds. . . you were either a little child, as in pre adolescent. . . or you were not, and be expected to work, keep up appearances, and depending on your gender, know your way around field, cooking fire, farm and coital bed. They did not treat teens as we do now, and as a result the teens tended to be tougher, harder and more world savvy.

Paws, since you started this 4th thread, maybe it would be good to post that header that was put at the begginning of the prior related thread, just to give people the known details on the upcoming book, as opposed to merely continuing the disconjointed discussion about that information. Not a criticism, just a suggestion.

Some might define it thus, but the terms I prefer to think of things is how TVTropes defines http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/HighFantasy and http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/LowFantasy fantasy, the Elder Scrolls may carry a few elements of low fantasy, as noted on the low fantasy page, but for the most part is definately high fantasy. Magic is quite present, elves, orcs and anthropomorphic animal-like races are seen pretty often, plots often tend to deal with things like killing insane gods, finding illegitimate heirs to the throne to stop Daedric invasions, and defeating ambitious sorcerers who imprison the Emperor in another dimension and pretend to be him. Crazy fantastical weapons and artifacts are quite commonplace. On the other hand, many examples of low fantasy listed still take place in a Medieval Europe-like world. They just tend to go for a different feel from high fantasy.



Given that the floating city is supposed to raise people as undead, I wouldn't be surprised if it is connected to necromancers, I'm not sure why they'd have a floating city, though, because it's not something I've ever associated with them in the past, hopefully, though, they'll be able to adequately explain the presence of a floating city. It needs it, since it isn't a common sight in the Elder Scrolls universe (though it doesn't sound outside the realm of possibility to me.)



While the use of young characters isn't something I would say is out of place in the world of the Elder Scrolls, I do hope it's just a storytelling choice and is not intended as a means to appeal to younger audiences. A story where the characters are, by modern standards, minors, isn't necessarily for children, but stories aimed at children or teens will often use characters below the age of 18, or at the oldest, young advlts, I certainly haven't seen too many stories aimed at teens or children with a hero above 30 years of age.

I generally define high and low fantasy in terms of general grittiness and morality. In high fantasy morality is generally clear cut: there may be surprises and twists, but there is good and there is evil. Low fantasy tends to deal with far more moral ambiguity. Not only are you more likely to have an anti-hero but even when the protagonist is a 'good' guy it isn't always clear which sides are good and which are evil.

I think high fantasy tends to use fantastic monsters and magic a bit more heavily, but I wouldn't consider these defining characteristics. Low fantasy seems to be more willing to find ugliness among plain old humans, whereas high fantasy is more apt to have certain races and nations be 'good' and others be 'evil.'

Bringing this back to the Elder Scrolls, hint hint,

I'd say the Elder Scrolls is very solidly middle fantasy. While 'good' and 'evil' are often definable, there's plenty of gray in between. For example, Mehrunes Dagon is evil, as are most daedra, and there's really no question here. But this can't be said about all of the princes; Azura, Meridia, even Sheogorath are very ambiguous when it comes to this question of morality.

I think Oblivion leaned a bit more towards high fantasy and Morrowind towards low fantasy. In Oblivion its clear that the Empire and the Blades are the good guys while the cult of Mehrunes Dagon are evil. In Morrowind the antagonists are harder to define, and even Dagoth Ur and the sixth house have their complications.

I'd expect an Elder Scrolls novel to lean a little towards high fantasy, at least to set the scene, but that wouldn't need to hold true throughout.

Well, I've read Briar King. It was an enjoyable book at least. So no hacky with TES-y. But my hopes have not changed. I hope he avoids the classic fantasy pitfall of trying to justify the setting in terms of the real world, and I hope it isn't just Briar King with TES names and locations tacked on.

It wouldn't surprise me if it was the real mannimarco working with the sload afther all we all know mannimarco has had dealing with them in the past and he has shown to be hard to kill he''s like a roach every time you think he's dead he pops back up alive. and aren't the sload supose to have flying citys or something like that idk.

I just try to think of it this way nowadays: You can't tell the entire plot from a small, two-sentence blurb. Keyes is a pretty good author and there's nothing in the lore that says there aren't flying cities, even if we've never seen one in it before.

Have you ever read a definition? Including the real world is not at all a requisite or even common attribute of low fantasy.

From Wikipedia:


Low fantasy can include the "modern technological world" but it can also be set in mystical, fantastic worlds with elves. It is a question of tone and content. You could adapt any fairy tale into low fantasy. I think this is a better way of measuring it because instead of tallying superficial elements of setting, it addresses what it all means.

I think I have to disagree with you. Hungry Donner. I also think that people are, on the whole, rather uncharitable towards High Fantasy in their definitions of it. A better word for the criteria people often attach to High Fantasy would be Cheesy Fantasy. I think that there are other attributes you should look at first, and not declare something Low simply because there is some moral ambiguity or gritty realism worked in somewhere. Like I said in the previous topic:


So I think that Elder Scrolls is solidly High Fantasy with some low stylistic elements. It is too hard to ignore the scope of it. I also think that both Oblivion and Morrowind are High Fantasy, though Oblivion fits the Chessy Fantasy model better. But both are Epic Fantasy, Morowind rather more so since it brings in thousands of years of history to act as a backdrop to your actions.

AinurGlorin is correct when he points out that modern ideas of young people in dangerous or important roles are quite different from what is probably in Nirn. A 16 year old can get married, sit a throne or die in battle same as anyone else. It was the youngest age registered in the Oblivion CS, in fact.

It is allowed, in fact conversations tend to be pretty boring (and unedifying) when no one is willing to disagree with you. Obviously I also have to ban you for it. :hehe:


I was brief in both of my definitions, and you're right that one of the key aspects of high fantasy is its epic scope or grander scale. I'm more drawn to the morality issue as it's something that interests me more, although even here I was dealing with generalizations. High fantasy may tend to have a 'good' side and a 'bad' side but that certainly doesn't mean the characters live pristine existences. I think the involvement (and importance) of Gollum if Tolkien's work is an excellent example of this. Good writing breaks free from the archetypes and cliches of its form.


The Warhammer setting manages to do some very low fantasy stuff at an epic scale, but then it's a true smorgasbord when it comes to fantasy tropes, and some parts of the setting are firmly within the style and pageantry of high fantasy.

Morrowind did maintain a very epic story. It may be a bit more 'low fantasy' in my book, but pretty much equal to Oblivion in terms of its scale. Maybe the stakes in TES III don't really line up with the stakes in TES IV, but when you're within the stories you don't really notice.


Yeah, in much of medieval Europe (as well as much of the rest of the world) the age of advlthood was around thirteen.

Heh. Well it's official. The library I work at has it ready in their computer system. And it looks like my boss reserved it for me, first in line. Just thought i'd mention it since i was about to order a different Keyes book (Charnel Prince)

Definitely. High Fantasy and Low Fantasy are both just general labels. Even the EXTREMELY high fantasy setting of Warcraft has moral ambiguity, such as the Forsaken. Even the humans are question, with their king calling for unnecessary war because of an age old grudge.

Most generally, I'd say the difference between high and low fantasy is that high fantasy tends to play out "epic" feats, such as slaying a dragon or casting a spell, where low fantasy might make very little use of magic, and when they do, it's for a smaller effect.

I would say the main barometers are 1) Morality and 2) Scope

In Lord of the Rings, not only are the heroes Good, they must save the WORLD from Evil

In Conan stories (which I prefer) he's a decent guy, but a thief and pillager, and although he does become King, he is only King of Aquilonia, there is the Kingdom of Turan and Nemedia and so forth...he's only as "destined" to rule as Richard the III or Julius Caesar.

Which is the Elderscrolls? Well, the Hero is not always good, but the Mainquest generally is benevolent in it's goal. The scope however tends to be provincial rather than global...

I've read the Waterborn series and Age of Unreason Series, Keyes did a fine job with keeping his lore and characters consistent.
I could give a fat rat's ass about what kind of fantasy it is. I have two catergories, good fantasy and bad fantasy.
If the novel is well written with attention to detail, use of imagination in unexpected ways, has coherency and continuity in both lore and character development, and lastly, avoids general use of cliche, I am down with it. If not, it's cheese.
Looking forward to the new book, it should be a rainy afternoon well spent, and a bonus of seeing the TES universe through someone else's eyes. I doubt seriously the world will end if I don't see eye to eye with Keyes.

Oh, then I highly recommend the View from the Mirror series by Ian Irvine, Illumination series by Terry McGarry, and the Black Jewels series by Anne Bishop. No clear-cut evil/good, plenty of grittiness, lots of creativity, and they eschew cliches. Very well done, thoroughly enjoyable. :trophy:

I loved the Anne Bishop series - very interesting take on "darkness", instead of the traditional hallowed fantasy cliche.

I'll have to read Keyes sometimes this summer... he'd never caught my attention before hearing about the novels. :shrug:

Inclined to agree here. In response to paws, I have read the definitions. I don't neccesarily agree with all of it. College literature classes tended to offer a slightly differnt take. To my understanding, High vs. Low is defined more by epic scale and setting. I never said it High could not take place in the real world, but if it is the modern world, replete with all the tech. or post modern. . . Shadowrun for instance. . . it is not High Fantasy. The downplay on the epic and saga elements also. High fantasy CAN have Moral Ambiguity and often does. . . but it also tends to include the moral extremes, whereas so called Low may never touch on them or else vascillate wildly between them. You can have a protaganist in a high fantasy with all the moral ambiguity of a Conan, an Elric or a Lestat. . . if he is set against a figure like Sauron and saving whole regions or the world at large from Him, it remains High Fantasy.

In other news, on the teen protaganists. . . I just saw a news story today that hearkened to old world adolescent spirit. . . a young man is nearly finished his single person, single vessel sail around the world. He began at 16 from California, has touched on 6 of the Seven continents, and will be home in about a week, now age 17, after roughly a year alone at sea. One of the few people in history known to have completed this feat, which many an older person has failed at. Teens and young advlts are often used as protaganist to appeal to all audiences. And there is a certain sense in it. In life, especially in older times, great feats were often accomplished by teens, for they were strong enough of body and quick enough of mind and wit to manage them, and still young and reckless enough to attempt them in the first place. One poster, however, based his complaint in the third incarnation of this thread on the fact that the herione, at 17, was not old enough to be shagged. . . oo: And while I SERIOUSLY doubt that will be the main focus of the book, he at least should be able to rest easy in the fact that, as that is still within the bounds of legal consent age in a number of U.S. states and in most nations. . . and was certainly not an issue prior to the very late 1800s when virtually all places held consent age at between 13 and 16 and would happily see you married off to an old codger at that age. . . I don't think he needs to worry himself too much over that issue in a novel set in clearly archaic world type of Elder Scrolls. Focus more on the history books, and stop listening to Oprah.

Anyway, what month are the books actually slated to release in? Does anyone know?

The first one's hitting the shelves November 24, 2009. There's no info on the second one at all, as far as I know.

Thanks. Wow, that is late fall. I was hoping early fall. But, oh well. The second probably won't arrive until at least The Holiday Season/ Winter 2009, if not next year.

He also left all his stove fuel in the dock and had to eat canned beans all the way to Hawaii.

Thanks, I'll check them out.
Keyes is gifted when it comes to creating characters in depth, he gives them a good backstory, motivation, strenghts, and weaknesses.
Keyes is also able to pull off strong female characters as protagonists without it being cheesy or preachy. his Mademoiselle Adrienne de Montchevreuil of the Empire of Unreason series kicks ass. Excels at math, strong willed, makes the best of the situation, and is in a position of authority, despite the social norms of her time. I'm interested to see what character development he has in store for the TES book.

Lol. Ah well. . . all the more heroic and stoic an accomplishment then.

Huh. Thanks. Where could I find that statistic, all it says at my work is that it's gonna be there.

Also, Ann Dare of Keyes' "Kingdom of Thorn and Bone" series (including "The Briar King") is an intelligent, strong-willed princess who's forced to grow up during the course of the series as she achieves her destiny. Another female character, the lover of the group's Ranger (or "Hoster", in this series) is an innkeeper's daughter. She proves to be from day one brave and resourceful; if I remember right, she's not out of her teens either. Ann's mother, the queen of a kingdom, is also a strong and wise character, as are other female characters in the stories. I think Keyes will portray TES characters without having them be two-dimensional.