[christelle047]

Dear god what have I done? :mellow:
Also, I would like Keyes to mention that it is a jungle.

[Sxc-Mary]

Dear god what have I done? :mellow:
Also, I would like Keyes to mention that it is a jungle.

Why would he describe Cyrodiil?
Why is everyone so obsessed about Cyrodiil being a jungle?

(When the jungle got taken care http://www.imperial-library.info/obscure_text/many-headed_talos.shtml)

[Trevi]

Why would he describe Cyrodiil?
Why is everyone so obsessed about Cyrodiil being a jungle?

(When the jungle got taken care http://www.imperial-library.info/obscure_text/many-headed_talos.shtml)

It's also in the Commentaries;
"Witness the home of the Red King Once Jungled."

In lore and game Cyrodiil is no longer a jungle, so if Keyes describes it as being no longer a jungle he will be lore correct.

[asako]

It can only be called a "fix" if what was changed truly needed fixing in the first place. And that is a stance that is highly debatable.

Which is why I referred to it as a fix. Yes it is highly debateable, but in my opinion it is important for everything in a world to be explainable, including magic. Geographical zonations and climates are possibly the most important, since the land is the foundation of everything that occurs upon it: from the flora that grows there; the fauna that evolves to become acclimated to it; and the appearance and culture of the humanoid races that make it their home. These are all determined by factors mentioned above, such as the planetary position, the weather, the wind direction, the ocean currents etc, and on an Earth-like planet they must be Earth-like, unless some other viable explanation is given. If no explanation is given, then the world loses credibility and believability. All fantasy worlds take this well-known fact into account, and Bethesda are obviously striving to make their world as believable as possible with this change.

Some of the most successful fantasy authors, and my favourite authors because of it, even go to the length of explaining magic. Rather than just taking the stance of "magic is magic, and it exists because it does", authors like Robert Jordan and Steven Erikson describe the process by which magic is possible and performed, creating a more detailed and believable world in the process.

their world isnt bound by the same laws and limitations as ours so having skyrim,cyrodil, and morrowind be next to each other with different climates is completely plausible in the elder scroll universe.

It is only plausible, and only acceptable, if the reasons for the climates being in incorrect locations by Earth-standards in an Earth-like world are explained. And as far as I can tell, the only law and limitation of Tamriel that varies from our world is the inclusion of magic. Many authors use magic as a reason for deviations in climate and geography, but where this occurs they explain it, and it is certainly within the realms of imagination in a fantasy world to believe that magical influences can warp the appearance of the world on a large scale. Bethesda didn't take this route though. They changed the climate of Cyrodiil to fit with the laws of an earth-like world.

Unless you want to say magic is just a placeholder as well since it doesn't make sense in our world.

Either you don't understand what I'm saying, or you're trying to twist my words into something I'm not saying at all.

The 'placeholder' tag I used was referring to the lore of provinces that have not appeared in any of Bethesda's games yet, thus they have not been fully explored by Bethesda, and thus we shouldn't be the least bit surprised it this lore is changed and expanded upon when one of those provinces is presented in a game or book. Magic doesn't need to make sense in terms of 'our world', because there is no magic in our world. It has been added to Tamriel which is based on our world. Anything can be added, provided it is made believable. What you can't do is take away building blocks such as the correlation of world biomes without explanation.




Hopefully that clears things up a bit! It's all my opinion, and of course you're all entitled to yours! ^_^ I'm just trying to explain why the change was made, and (probably) why Bethesda thought it was neccessary. It's all in an attempt to make this world we love so much a more believable place. No doubt everyone's priorities for what makes a great fantasy world varies, but a realistic world has always been number 1 for me.

[Averielle Garcia]

Why would he describe Cyrodiil?
Why is everyone so obsessed about Cyrodiil being a jungle?

(When the jungle got taken care http://www.imperial-library.info/obscure_text/many-headed_talos.shtml)

I was responding to the lower half of the previous page. We are all aware of the CHIM Talos business, and they were discussing whether or not the lore would change back to the interesting, detailed way it was before, or stay with the technicolor, cliche landscape that is was changed into for Oblivion. My post was in response to the first post beneath asking me to clarify my opinion. To answer your second question, it is because many pre-Oblivion (pre-Morrowind) TES fans have been complaining about how Cyrodiil lost all of its uniqueness with that CHIM Talos business which turned it into a cliche, technicolor landscape. Either way, this thread is veering off-topic. Why I wanted that in the book isn't as much that I wanted Keyes to straight-up say that Cyrodiil is a jungle as opposed to referring to Cyrodiil as a jungle. (If that makes sense) If the book takes place in Cyrodiil, it better take place in the jungle or in the IC. If it takes place in somewhere like Hammerfell, if Cyrodiil comes up in conversaiton, people should act like it is the lore-beautified jungle and not the Oblivion landscape.

[WYatt REed]

I was responding to the lower half of the previous page. We are all aware of the CHIM Talos business, and they were discussing whether or not the lore would change back to the interesting, detailed way it was before, or stay with the technicolor, cliche landscape that is was changed into for Oblivion. My post was in response to the first post beneath asking me to clarify my opinion. To answer your second question, it is because many pre-Oblivion (pre-Morrowind) TES fans have been complaining about how Cyrodiil lost all of its uniqueness with that CHIM Talos business which turned it into a cliche, technicolor landscape. Either way, this thread is veering off-topic. Why I wanted that in the book isn't as much that I wanted Keyes to straight-up say that Cyrodiil is a jungle as opposed to referring to Cyrodiil as a jungle. (If that makes sense) If the book takes place in Cyrodiil, it better take place in the jungle or in the IC. If it takes place in somewhere like Hammerfell, if Cyrodiil comes up in conversaiton, people should act like it is the lore-beautified jungle and not the Oblivion landscape.

Unless he comes up with an explanation for why Cyrodiil is back to being a jungle he would be incorrect in doing so.

[Ebony Lawson]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jungle

Ok, someone explain jungle to me, how it looks. Ok, first I know it has to be hot climate. If you see the picture of the jungle in Pakistan, it looks like regular trees, not the typical jungle trees.

In Oblivion I see regular tress (like the jungle in Pakistan) and not sure of the climate of Cyrodiil.

So what is the true definition of a jungle and Does it say anywhere in lore or in the game that Cyrodill wasn't a jungle?

If no one can answer this question, then I believe that there is a jungle in Oblivion (again referring to the jungle in Pakistan) and everyone made a big deal for NOTHING.

[Alan Whiston]

Which is why I referred to it as a fix. Yes it is highly debateable, but in my opinion it is important for everything in a world to be explainable, including magic. Geographical zonations and climates are possibly the most important, since the land is the foundation of everything that occurs upon it: from the flora that grows there; the fauna that evolves to become acclimated to it; and the appearance and culture of the humanoid races that make it their home. These are all determined by factors mentioned above, such as the planetary position, the weather, the wind direction, the ocean currents etc, and on an Earth-like planet they must be Earth-like, unless some other viable explanation is given. If no explanation is given, then the world loses credibility and believability. All fantasy worlds take this well-known fact into account, and Bethesda are obviously striving to make their world as believable as possible with this change.

Some of the most successful fantasy authors, and my favourite authors because of it, even go to the length of explaining magic. Rather than just taking the stance of "magic is magic, and it exists because it does", authors like Robert Jordan and Steven Erikson describe the process by which magic is possible and performed, creating a more detailed and believable world in the process.


It is only plausible, and only acceptable, if the reasons for the climates being in incorrect locations by Earth-standards in an Earth-like world are explained. And as far as I can tell, the only law and limitation of Tamriel that varies from our world is the inclusion of magic. Many authors use magic as a reason for deviations in climate and geography, but where this occurs they explain it, and it is certainly within the realms of imagination in a fantasy world to believe that magical influences can warp the appearance of the world on a large scale. Bethesda didn't take this route though. They changed the climate of Cyrodiil to fit with the laws of an earth-like world.



Either you don't understand what I'm saying, or you're trying to twist my words into something I'm not saying at all.

The 'placeholder' tag I used was referring to the lore of provinces that have not appeared in any of Bethesda's games yet, thus they have not been fully explored by Bethesda, and thus we shouldn't be the least bit surprised it this lore is changed and expanded upon when one of those provinces is presented in a game or book. Magic doesn't need to make sense in terms of 'our world', because there is no magic in our world. It has been added to Tamriel which is based on our world. Anything can be added, provided it is made believable. What you can't do is take away building blocks such as the correlation of world biomes without explanation.




Hopefully that clears things up a bit! It's all my opinion, and of course you're all entitled to yours! ^_^ I'm just trying to explain why the change was made, and (probably) why Bethesda thought it was neccessary. It's all in an attempt to make this world we love so much a more believable place. No doubt everyone's priorities for what makes a great fantasy world varies, but a realistic world has always been number 1 for me.

1. All i'm saying is I don't it makes much sense to go "it has to be this way in their world because it makes sense in our world" when there world makes heavy use of supernatural elements so it's pointless to say Cyrodil should be X because in our world X is Y.

2. I didn't say that because I misunderstood you or tried to twist your words, I was just playing with your words.

[Marilú]

It's funny how the retcon in the commentaries establishes that Cyrodiil was indeed jungle, yet, according to some, logic says it can't be. The acts of gods are continually overruled, so I have no qualms with a jungled Cyrodiil returning or a temperate Cyrodiil remaining.

edit: In fact, I realy don't care how the climate is changed, as long as the change brings to the fiction discernable benefits. I see none from the Talos retcon, though.
and the pointless change wouldn't be half as rediculous, if Keyes injects half the culture that wasn't there in the game

[Bellismydesi]

Cyrodiil being a jungle was completely retconned whether you like it or not. It is not a jungle, and more than likely will not BE a jungle ever again. It used to be a jungle, but not anymore, and that's that. To retcon it a second time to make it into a jungle once more would be ridiculous. God forbid should a temperate forest actually exist in Tamriel.

If the novel does in fact take place in Cyrodiil, what Keyes can do is flesh out the province further and in ways that Bethesda failed to do while remaining within the lore. Give the Imperial City, and all the other cities and in fact the rest of the province for that matter, more detail. From what I gather Keyes is good at taking typical fantasy tropes and making them something unique. Perhaps he can take the "cliche" landscape and world of Cyrodiil and give it the necessary, but not lore-breaking detail, needed to make it less cliche and more interesting and unique. The Imperial City can still be wheel-shaped, have all the designated districts, but be fleshed out far more than it was in-game. And if people argue saying "The Imperial City wasn't that populous in Oblivion!" or what have you, all someone has to do is bring up game mechanics as an argument for why it wasn't in the first place, which is more than likely the case anyway.

Chances are, no amount of complaining is going to bring your precious jungle back, people. The horse is dead and has been dead for 3+ years. Time to stop beating it. It only serves to derail threads at this point.

[chinadoll]

Cyrodiil being a jungle was completely retconned whether you like it or not. It is not a jungle, and more than likely will not BE a jungle ever again. It used to be a jungle, but not anymore, and that's that. To retcon it a second time to make it into a jungle once more would be ridiculous. God forbid should a temperate forest actually exist in Tamriel.

Just thought i'd add something to this particular aspect, the devs clearly wanted to lose the jungle if they use an excuse as ridiculous as that, like the whole "only heir to the throne" story about Martin, everyone knew that their were more people that could rule Cyrodiil if the problem was lineage, but the devs clearly were trying to move away from the Septim line to introduce something that wouldn't be affected by a dozen sons trying to be emperor, long story short, Oblivion was used to change a lot of things in the game as preparation for something bigger.

[Gracie Dugdale]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jungle

Ok, someone explain jungle to me, how it looks. Ok, first I know it has to be hot climate. If you see the picture of the jungle in Pakistan, it looks like regular trees, not the typical jungle trees.

In Oblivion I see regular tress (like the jungle in Pakistan) and not sure of the climate of Cyrodiil.

So what is the true definition of a jungle and Does it say anywhere in lore or in the game that Cyrodill wasn't a jungle?

If no one can answer this question, then I believe that there is a jungle in Oblivion (again referring to the jungle in Pakistan) and everyone made a big deal for NOTHING.

As it says in the very first line of your wikipedia link: A jungle is a dense forest in a hot climate.

My point: Climate cannot change so drastically from the cold Tundra of Skyrim to a hot jungle in Cyrodiil over a single mountain range without a good explanation. That is why Cyrodiil is now predominantly temperate, with northern Cyrodiil and southern Skyrim portrayed as a boreal region in Oblivion.

All i'm saying is I don't it makes much sense to go "it has to be this way in their world because it makes sense in our world" when there world makes heavy use of supernatural elements

Their heavy use of supernatural elements explains necromancy, magic, mythical creatures etc. Their heavy use of Earth-like parameters such as distance from the sun, eliptical orbit (seasons), nitrogen/oxygen based atmosphere, identical flora and fauna etc means it makes perfect sense to say that the layout of Tamriel's biomes must be similar to Earth's unless a well explained reason is provided.

[Lisa]

Their heavy use of supernatural elements explains necromancy, magic, mythical creatures etc. Their heavy use of Earth-like parameters such as distance from the sun, eliptical orbit (seasons), nitrogen/oxygen based atmosphere, identical flora and fauna etc means it makes perfect sense to say that the layout of Tamriel's biomes must be similar to Earth's unless a well explained reason is provided.

Now you're just making that stuff up as none of that stuff is even mentioned anywhere and btw that "sun" is hole between oblivion and mundus that makes it possible for the people of nirn to channel magic.

[Tamika Jett]

Which is why I referred to it as a fix. Yes it is highly debateable, but in my opinion it is important for everything in a world to be explainable, including magic. Geographical zonations and climates are possibly the most important, since the land is the foundation of everything that occurs upon it: from the flora that grows there; the fauna that evolves to become acclimated to it; and the appearance and culture of the humanoid races that make it their home. These are all determined by factors mentioned above, such as the planetary position, the weather, the wind direction, the ocean currents etc, and on an Earth-like planet they must be Earth-like, unless some other viable explanation is given. If no explanation is given, then the world loses credibility and believability. All fantasy worlds take this well-known fact into account, and Bethesda are obviously striving to make their world as believable as possible with this change.

Key problem: A fantasy world might be more 'believable' as being a place on Earth by having Earth-like climate rules, but if it's attempting to be its own world, you cannot use the logic and scientific rules of our planet in correspondence with a world where planets are the planes of gods and climate can be changed by godly action.

I think a fantasy world that follows Earth-like rules might actually lose credibility in some regards if it's attempting to be its own thing but needlessly clings to rules that belong to a world it doesn't exist in.

The 'placeholder' tag I used was referring to the lore of provinces that have not appeared in any of Bethesda's games yet, thus they have not been fully explored by Bethesda, and thus we shouldn't be the least bit surprised it this lore is changed and expanded upon when one of those provinces is presented in a game or book. Magic doesn't need to make sense in terms of 'our world', because there is no magic in our world. It has been added to Tamriel which is based on our world. Anything can be added, provided it is made believable. What you can't do is take away building blocks such as the correlation of world biomes without explanation.

This I completely disagree with. Part of the essence of the Elder Scrolls is not just that it is a completely different world, but, despite similarities with our world, they can and should be for completely different reasons. The stars are holes in the Void to Aetherius. For all we know, gravity is actually because the body, as a tether for the soul, is tied to the world and cannot leave it.

Random stuff aside, you cannot use real world physics and laws as the building blocks for a world with its own cosmos, laws, gods, and rules. The magic is in the actual building of the world, not just in the game mechanic and those spells people throw around in the books. The magic isn't there to explain things, it's there to tell the story and complete the world.

Oh my Godhead, talk about silly.

Storytelling *is* magic.

Feel entitled to your opinion, of course.

[Emma Copeland]

Climate cannot change so drastically from the cold Tundra of Skyrim to a hot jungle in Cyrodiil over a single mountain range without a good explanation. That is why Cyrodiil is now predominantly temperate, with northern Cyrodiil and southern Skyrim portrayed as a boreal region in Oblivion.

Morrowind (vvardenfell to be exact) is smaller than cyrodiil, in MW it took forever from south to north. In OB it's faster, so it's not like it was 2 feet away. I am sure it takes weeks from Imperial City to bruma, not 2 hours. Bethesda just made it easier to walk. (I play video games to escape reality, so I don't care of to much reality in video games)

[Heather Kush]

My latest issue of Game Informer has an article on video game Lore Masters. Part of it mentions the upcoming TES Novel:

Bethesda spent time making sure he [Keyes] understoon its fiction. "We gave him access to our internal lore website, so he had access to unpublished, secret lore," Kuhlmann explains. "He also played through Oblivion several times to get the actual exprience of how we've presented Tamriel in the game as opposed to written lore."

... The author then had to submit a series of treatments for the company to to page through before it settled on a story about a mysterious floating city that kills anyone who falls under its shadow.

So Keyes read the lore, and still comes up with the floating city of doom idea. What is worse is that the head honchos over at the dev studio chose that plot.

But wait, here's a gem for you:

"Greg stumped me a few times with some really esoteric questions that I had to do some digging to answer," Kuhlmann says... "One I remember was a question about the correct name for the original Elven language. I had to look that one up. We also got into a discussion about the metaphysical significance of White-Gold Tower in Cyrodiil, which took me into some of the dustier corners of out lore."

Dude, it's Ehlnofex. I didn't even have to look it up. And how is the Tower a dusty part of lore? The Towers and their guardians (mage, warrior, thief) are integral symbols in the TES universe.

[Milad Hajipour]

Storytelling *is* magic.

Feel entitled to your opinion, of course.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zTYT-SiZeFo
http://whenfallsthecoliseum.com/2009/10/15/the-news-is-magic/
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magic_Johnson
http://www.jfk-assassination.de/images/bullet2.gif
http://www.netpaths.net/blog/wp-content/uploads/2007/10/magic-8-ball.jpg
"Storytelling is magic" is trifling.

[Brian Newman]

It is only plausible, and only acceptable, if the reasons for the climates being in incorrect locations by Earth-standards in an Earth-like world are explained. And as far as I can tell, the only law and limitation of Tamriel that varies from our world is the inclusion of magic. Many authors use magic as a reason for deviations in climate and geography, but where this occurs they explain it, and it is certainly within the realms of imagination in a fantasy world to believe that magical influences can warp the appearance of the world on a large scale. Bethesda didn't take this route though. They changed the climate of Cyrodiil to fit with the laws of an earth-like world.

Oh dear. You are assuming that the very presence of jungled Cyrodiil in the first place is not itself an explanation of why Tamriel's laws and rules regarding such things are not comparable to Earth's. Hence, you are begging the question, assuming in your argument that the Jungles are incorrect even before attempting to postulate that the Jungles are incorrect.


And besides, as Jackfrost so eloquently pointed out, the very fact that, from an in-game perspective, the Jungles existed before the divine retcon is proof that the plausibility of jungle within the Cyrod region is not nulled by any laws or rules, Earth-like or not.

[Sebrina Johnstone]

Oblivion would have svcked if they had made the landscape predominately jungle.

Yes, because it's sooo great how they have it now. :rolleyes:

[Nicole Elocin]

The Elder Scrolls IV: Drake's Fortune

[le GraiN]

Now you're just making that stuff up as none of that stuff is even mentioned anywhere and btw that "sun" is hole between oblivion and mundus that makes it possible for the people of nirn to channel magic.

The fact that it's all in the games means i'm not making it up. There are seasons so I assume the planet revolves around the sun (or hole, or whatever we should call it) or that magic somehow alters the temperature of Nirn to create Earth-like seasons. Maybe the planet is on an elliptical orbit, and as the planet gets closer to the hole, the magic emnating through it heats Nirn. I haven't looked into this very much, but the fact remains that i'm not making up the presence of Earth-like seasons. The sky is blue which leads to the simple assumption of a nitrogen/oxygen atmosphere. And you can't possibly be challenging my argument that Tamriel uses similar flora and fauna? Some of the plant names are even identical. You've seen Chorrol's great Oak i'm sure. I haven't made any of this up, and it's not a bad thing that so many aspects of Tamriel are similar to Earth. It's the most effective way of creating a believable fantasy world, used by almost every single author in history. The only worlds I can think of that aren't earth-based, are in sci-fi universes, where Earth-based planets still exist. I'm not putting the series down for this, i'm commending Bethesda's ability to alter certain aspects of TES lore in order to improve the world.

Key problem: A fantasy world might be more 'believable' as being a place on Earth by having Earth-like climate rules, but if it's attempting to be its own world, you cannot use the logic and scientific rules of our planet in correspondence with a world where planets are the planes of gods and climate can be changed by godly action.

I think a fantasy world that follows Earth-like rules might actually lose credibility in some regards if it's attempting to be its own thing but needlessly clings to rules that belong to a world it doesn't exist in.

"as being a place on Earth": I never said Tamriel was trying to be a place on Earth, but trying to appear similar to Earth. I'm pretty sure you already knew this though and it's just a way that your comment could be interpreted.

Other than that part in bold, you have a very good point, and I agree with you. However, the idea of taking Earth-based rules and cultures and then applying them to your own fantasy world is an incredibly common and incredibly recommended method for creating a believable world. I haven't invented this argument, it's a well-known tool in fantasy literature, and something I studied in great depth during Further Education. Although it might seem more appropriate to create an entirely new set of laws for an entirely new world and universe, the reader (and player in this case) will find it a lot harder to immerse themself in a world where absolutely everything is different and nothing is as expected. As much as I would applaud the creation of a world in this way, you would have to steer in a completely different direction from our own planet.

Example: If our planet gave rise to the evolution of humans, then a planet with different laws would now be unbelievable if it coincidently also followed exactly the same evolutionary paths and favours. There's a good chance that the spine wouldn't be the favoured support structure (Philip Pullman's Dark Materials trilogy has a fantastic example of this), and there's no way you could get off lightly with having the sentient races speak English.

These are the reasons fantasy worlds use an Earth-based system. You avoid these problems. At the same time, your planet now needs to correspond to the same basic building blocks as our planet, unless, like I keep repeating, a good explanation as to why something isn't as it should be is offered. That is where 'divine retcons' can come into play, and the oft-used alterations by magic.

[Jennifer Rose]

You need to realize http://www.imperial-library.info/obscure_text/vehk_teaching.shtml. You should also look at the http://www.imperial-library.info/obscure_text/cosmology.shtml, which is essentially a word-of-god statement by a prominent developer on how things work.
The universe is not a physical universe but a metaphysical one. Therefore, all the real-world hemhaw is completely and utterly irrelevant. The irony of it all is, if the TES universe did NOT have that metaphysical structure, then CHIM would be impossible, as would the very means by which Cyrodiil's jungles were changed.


Attempting to swing this thread back into its original means of discussion, we now have a http://www.waterstones.com/waterstonesweb/products/greg+keyes/the+elder+scrolls3a+infernal+city/7159828/ to indicate that there is a 200-year gap between TES:IV and TES:V.

[Minako]

Oh dear. You are assuming that the very presence of jungled Cyrodiil in the first place is not itself an explanation of why Tamriel's laws and rules regarding such things are not comparable to Earth's. Hence, you are begging the question, assuming in your argument that the Jungles are incorrect even before attempting to postulate that the Jungles are incorrect.


And besides, as Jackfrost so eloquently pointed out, the very fact that, from an in-game perspective, the Jungles existed before the divine retcon is proof that the plausibility of jungle within the Cyrod region is not nulled by any laws or rules, Earth-like or not.

As I already said, the chances are that Cyrodiil was changed so that it would make sense geographically. The inclusion of Talos removing the jungles from Cyrodiil was probably to change the setting of Tamriel without completely giving the finger to the lore pages.

If the Jungles had originally been this region's climix community, then removing them would only result in them growing back. Instead we now have a completely new biome in Cyrodiil, meaning everything from the temperature and humidity of the air, to the bedrock of the ground has been changed. A change to Tamriel's largest and most central province on this massive scale would also result in massive changes to the rest of the continent. Which is why i'm pretty sure this change was mainly an update to the lore of this previously unexplored section of the world, and not a serious attempt at furthering the story of Tamriel and one of its provinces.

If it makes you happier to believe this world has no defined laws and rules in how it is designed, and it really would have been better to stick with the design philosophy of "Chuck a load of biomes into a sieve, shake it over a map of Tamriel, and whatever lands sticks" then that's fine too. That's the wonderful thing about fantasy worlds: you can interpret them however you like! I just prefer to think that Bethesda love this world as much as we do, and are striving to make it as coherent a world as possible. ^_^

[Christina Trayler]

The fact that it's all in the games means i'm not making it up. There are seasons so I assume the planet revolves around the sun (or hole, or whatever we should call it) or that magic somehow alters the temperature of Nirn to create Earth-like seasons. Maybe the planet is on an elliptical orbit, and as the planet gets closer to the hole, the magic emnating through it heats Nirn. I haven't looked into this very much, but the fact remains that i'm not making up the presence of Earth-like seasons. The sky is blue which leads to the simple assumption of a nitrogen/oxygen atmosphere. And you can't possibly be challenging my argument that Tamriel uses similar flora and fauna? Some of the plant names are even identical. You've seen Chorrol's great Oak i'm sure. I haven't made any of this up, and it's not a bad thing that so many aspects of Tamriel are similar to Earth. It's the most effective way of creating a believable fantasy world, used by almost every single author in history. The only worlds I can think of that aren't earth-based, are in sci-fi universes, where Earth-based planets still exist. I'm not putting the series down for this, i'm commending Bethesda's ability to alter certain aspects of TES lore in order to improve the world.

I'm challenging your arguments that the world of Nirn is based around laws that govern our universe. You keep trying to imply there is a connection between the two and even admit you haven't looked much into it when a look at the imperial library website and uesp.wiki as well as playing the games should have led you to make the conclusion that their world is set up and governed differently than ours.

Stop assuming and just look at the sources available to you.

[Rude_Bitch_420]

we now have a http://www.waterstones.com/waterstonesweb/products/greg+keyes/the+elder+scrolls3a+infernal+city/7159828/ to indicate that there is a 200-year gap between TES:IV and TES:V.

Hmm.... anyone else smell muskets and flintlock pistols? If all of this is true I can imagine a setting similar to Fable 2. And no, I don't mean that in a good way. Not saying guns are bad in fantasy worlds, I just hope we don't get some quick-job so people can get off on shooting Dunmer with muskets.