[Laura Samson]

The love and coherence is there and was there already. As are the defined laws and rules. It's just not love, coherence, laws, and rules, that conform to an earthly standard. I guess you haven't read those links yet, eh?

[Nikki Hype]

Attempting to swing this thread back into its original means of discussion, we now have a http://www.waterstones.com/waterstonesweb/products/greg+keyes/the+elder+scrolls3a+infernal+city/7159828/ to indicate that there is a 200-year gap between TES:IV and TES:V.

http://i652.photobucket.com/albums/uu244/MrTissueBox/TheElderScrollsV200yearsafterOblivi.jpg too. Although clicking on that link doesn't work.

This is what it says when you click on it: "We're sorry. The Web address you entered is not a functioning page on our site."

That is now 3 sources.

[Rhiannon Jones]

Hmm.... anyone else smell muskets and flintlock pistols? If all of this is true I can imagine a setting similar to Fable 2. And no, I don't mean that in a good way. Not saying guns are bad in fantasy worlds, I just hope we don't get some quick-job so people can get off on shooting Dunmer with muskets.

I hope not, its pointless with magic and giant magical weapons anyway lol.


Hopefully its an indication of political change.

[Emilie M]

Hopefully not. Aside from my own opinions that guns in TES are BATW, I'd feel sorry for the poor mods. http://www.gamesas.com/bgsforums/index.php?showtopic=1041436&hl=Guns would pup up 100 times more often with 100 more times the vitriol.

[Kristina Campbell]

I hope not, its pointless with magic and giant magical weapons anyway lol.

Nah, not really. Not everyone is skilled with magical powers. Gunpowder weapons would be just for them. And there's other options as well.

[Sabrina Schwarz]

Nah, not really. Not everyone is skilled with magical powers. Gunpowder weapons would be just for them. And there's other options as well.

well for now i'll just keep that thought out of my head. I can only see them doing it to bring in more of the casual cloud like they did with the generic setting

[Aaron Clark]

I can only see them doing it to bring in more of the casual cloud like they did with the generic setting

My thoughts as well.

[Sharra Llenos]

we now have a http://www.waterstones.com/waterstonesweb/products/greg+keyes/the+elder+scrolls3a+infernal+city/7159828/ to indicate that there is a 200-year gap between TES:IV and TES:V.

Holy... that is amazing news.

Didn't one of the guys from Bethesda say something along the lines of: "We like to wait until we have something to show before we announce anything."

Because if I did remember that correctly, it seems we may well have an announcement with at least a screenshot coming our way very soon.




To tie off the massive tangent about jungles: I'm not implying there's a connection between the two, i'm saying the world of TES has been created with the same standards as every world. It's visually similar in appearance and structure to Earth. Yes, this world has its own laws and is metaphysical, but it does have an Earth-like basis, hence the seasons/weather/climates/flora/fauna/HUMANS etc. As such, it is a common problem amongst all fantasy worlds created this way that if a part of this world doesn't make sense (jungles next to tundra) then it becomes less believable. That's just a fact. And that is why Bethesda changed the lore.

What I am NOT saying is that the lore behind Nirn's laws and physical set-up are the same as Earth's. Especially since it is a metaphysical universe as ThatOneGuy has said. Unfortunately, since the climate of Tamriel clearly works the same way as the climate on Earth (not a bad thing!) the jungles of Cyrodiil didn't make much sense. There is every chance that Nirn's unique laws and metaphysical state could have been used to explain this away and retain, nay reinforce, believability in the world and keep the jungles, but Bethesda obviously decided to remove them instead. Those laws could now be used to explain how the jungle existed there in the first place, but as of yet, they haven't.

I'm going to leave it here. Either you understand where i'm coming from: explaining why the jungle was removed, or you can keep interpreting this as an attack on the lore of TES, which it most certainly is not. Either way, I love you all, and thank you very much for this debate! :hugs:

[Blackdrak]

My latest issue of Game Informer has an article on video game Lore Masters. Part of it mentions the upcoming TES Novel:

"He also played through Oblivion several times to get the actual exprience of how we've presented Tamriel in the game as opposed to written lore."



So Keyes read the lore, and still comes up with the floating city of doom idea. What is worse is that the head honchos over at the dev studio chose that plot.

But wait, here's a gem for you:

Dude, it's Ehlnofex. I didn't even have to look it up. And how is the Tower a dusty part of lore? The Towers and their guardians (mage, warrior, thief) are integral symbols in the TES universe.

Christ KK, playing Oblivion doesn't get you up to the caliber of writing For TES Lore, surely you know that. I would also like to think you knew it was Ehlnofex (even if you didn't know, its only a bit of lingusitic deduction to infer ehlnofex from ehlnofey)

The Elder Scrolls IV: Drake's Fortune

dear God, now I see it....

well for now i'll just keep that thought out of my head. I can only see them doing it to bring in more of the casual cloud like they did with the generic setting

Hmm, Final Fantasy Scrolls.


Darkstorne, the fact is, evidence has been provided to explain why Nirn is not like Earth. You have provided no in-universe evidence that it acts the same way as Earth. You offer evidence of how it works on earth, but your theory is only founded on the assumption that you are correct.

[MatthewJontully]

Christ KK, playing Oblivion doesn't get you up to the caliber of writing For TES Lore, surely you know that.

I like to think he was just plugging their merchandise. A friendly reminder they made this one game a few years back, and the reader should buy it.

[Rhiannon Jones]

Holy... that is amazing news.

Didn't one of the guys from Bethesda say something along the lines of: "We like to wait until we have something to show before we announce anything."

Because if I did remember that correctly, it seems we may well have an announcement with at least a screenshot coming our way very soon.




To tie off the massive tangent about jungles: I'm not implying there's a connection between the two, i'm saying the world of TES has been created with the same standards as every world. It's visually similar in appearance and structure to Earth. Yes, this world has its own laws and is metaphysical, but it does have an Earth-like basis, hence the seasons/weather/climates/flora/fauna/HUMANS etc. As such, it is a common problem amongst all fantasy worlds created this way that if a part of this world doesn't make sense (jungles next to tundra) then it becomes less believable. That's just a fact. And that is why Bethesda changed the lore.

What I am NOT saying is that the lore behind Nirn's laws and physical set-up are the same as Earth's. Especially since it is a metaphysical universe as ThatOneGuy has said. Unfortunately, since the climate of Tamriel clearly works the same way as the climate on Earth (not a bad thing!) the jungles of Cyrodiil didn't make much sense. There is every chance that Nirn's unique laws and metaphysical state could have been used to explain this away and retain, nay reinforce, believability in the world and keep the jungles, but Bethesda obviously decided to remove them instead. Those laws could now be used to explain how the jungle existed there in the first place, but as of yet, they haven't.

I'm going to leave it here. Either you understand where i'm coming from: explaining why the jungle was removed, or you can keep interpreting this as an attack on the lore of TES, which it most certainly is not. Either way, I love you all, and thank you very much for this debate! :hugs:

Give me a source. WHERE has bethseda ever stated that they changed the lore so it makes more sense according to the laws of our world?I'm asking because you keep stating your opinion like a fact.

[Sarah MacLeod]

As long as he doesn't create his own world, say that people are alive/dead that shouldn't be, or not refer to Cyrodiil as a Jungle, I don't care what he does and will go along with the adventure that I know it will be.

I hate you Stivesie89...... :stare:
look at what you've done.
Son, I am disappoint.

[Jonathan Montero]

Christ KK, playing Oblivion doesn't get you up to the caliber of writing For TES Lore, surely you know that. I would also like to think you knew it was Ehlnofex (even if you didn't know, its only a bit of lingusitic deduction to infer ehlnofex from ehlnofey)

dear God, now I see it....


Hmm, Final Fantasy Scrolls.


Darkstorne, the fact is, evidence has been provided to explain why Nirn is not like Earth. You have provided no in-universe evidence that it acts the same way as Earth. You offer evidence of how it works on earth, but your theory is only founded on the assumption that you are correct.

lol I meant crowd

[TASTY TRACY]

Nah, not really. Not everyone is skilled with magical powers. Gunpowder weapons would be just for them. And there's other options as well.

True, but at the same time, would soldiers want to carry around a tube full of blackpowder in a world where a mage could easily touch off a spark in it and create a whole lot of boom? It seems like the first time a mage set off an army's blackpowder supply would pretty much be the end of widespread firearms usage.

[Alexander Lee]

True, but at the same time, would soldiers want to carry around a tube full of blackpowder in a world where a mage could easily touch off a spark in it and create a whole lot of boom? It seems like the first time a mage set off an army's blackpowder supply would pretty much be the end of widespread firearms usage.

So all you need is one mage on your side to shield the powder, and you have a thousand peasant riflemen mowing down the enemy in droves. Yay! Then again you might not even need that mage if you can sneak an assassin in close enough to snipe their current mages.

I never liked the argument that they don't need such and such technology because they have magic. They make it clear in the games that they don't have much magic overall, and the cost of magic is high.

[Rhysa Hughes]

Hmm.... anyone else smell muskets and flintlock pistols? If all of this is true I can imagine a setting similar to Fable 2. And no, I don't mean that in a good way. Not saying guns are bad in fantasy worlds, I just hope we don't get some quick-job so people can get off on shooting Dunmer with muskets.

What if... we can get magical gunpowder? That'll teach those pesky mages a thing or two, eh? Eh?


... No?


Ok I'll get my coat.

[Rachel Cafferty]

200 years doesn't necessarily mean guns/more advanced technologies.

The reason for pushing the game forwards 200 years is likely for the story. So close after the Oblivion crisis nothing interesting would be happening. A few centuries down the track, however, there's large possibility for new story and development. Borders may have moved, power shifted. It will probably be interesting to see how the world has changed.

Can't assume that 200 Tamriel years would have the same technological advances as 200 earth years. So, guns may not happen at all.

[elliot mudd]

Ok, first compulsive action then meaningful post

Compulsive Action:

NO GUNS IN TES!!! :nuke:


Meaningful Post:

ThatOneGuy can probably explain it better than me, as i understood it from him, but i'll try my best anyway, technology and advancement in the TES universe exists from a scale of non-existent to barely there at all, most technologies present were there from the beginning of creation, the sword, archery, craftsmanship, that was all there from the start of the TES universe. The knowledge of these things was given by the gods when mortals were made, and little to no self-progress has come from there, because of this the TES world is literally stuck in it's technological status unless a god presents information on how to make and use these different weapons. So no, guns are no, gunpowder is a no, and VATS is a hell-no.

[Javaun Thompson]

200 years doesn't necessarily mean guns/more advanced technologies.

The reason for pushing the game forwards 200 years is likely for the story. So close after the Oblivion crisis nothing interesting would be happening. A few centuries down the track, however, there's large possibility for new story and development. Borders may have moved, power shifted. It will probably be interesting to see how the world has changed.

Can't assume that 200 Tamriel years would have the same technological advances as 200 earth years. So, guns may not happen at all.

Well events from TES I to TES IV happened in 40 years span. That pretty much shows that interresting things do happen quite close to each other.
Also, post-Oblivion crysis should be very interesting period from political point of view and the plot of the game probably would've been based on political intrigues. Bethesda apparently resorted to telling us what happened during hat time thorugh novels and (hopefully) IG books and other forms of lore. That is also a good way to do things
I just hope they don't make those huge time leeps to make more "facing apocalypse" plots justifiable. Too many of them can't be good

[Kitana Lucas]

Holy crap, there is a lot of stuff between now anmd when I last looked. well, here I go:

Their heavy use of supernatural elements explains necromancy, magic, mythical creatures etc. Their heavy use of Earth-like parameters such as distance from the sun, eliptical orbit (seasons), nitrogen/oxygen based atmosphere, identical flora and fauna etc means it makes perfect sense to say that the layout of Tamriel's biomes must be similar to Earth's unless a well explained reason is provided.

The bolded stuff actually isn't true. There is no orbit of Nirn, Nirn is stationary. Oblivion flows like water around it and the sun, as a hole in the veil of Oblivion, moves around Nirn, and since Oblivion is a thing and not space, there isn't actually 'distance" between it and Nirn, at least not the way it works in the real world.

Now you're just making that stuff up as none of that stuff is even mentioned anywhere and btw that "sun" is hole between oblivion and mundus that makes it possible for the people of nirn to channel magic.

Basically this, yeah.

Yes, because it's sooo great how they have it now. :rolleyes:

In other words, Jungle is cooler because it isn't a Gondor rip off, which the Forested Cyrodiil was specifically designed to be. Therefore it should go back to Jungle. I'd rather have a jarring change back towards being interesting than have it be consistently generic.

Well events from TES I to TES IV happened in 40 years span. That pretty much shows that interresting things do happen quite close to each other.
Also, post-Oblivion crysis should be very interesting period from political point of view and the plot of the game probably would've been based on political intrigues. Bethesda apparently resorted to telling us what happened during hat time thorugh novels and (hopefully) IG books and other forms of lore. That is also a good way to do things
I just hope they don't make those huge time leeps to make more "facing apocalypse" plots justifiable. Too many of them can't be good

Point A: Lots of really interesting stuff happened, but virtually no technological or cultural advancement occurred.
Point B: I actually think the timjump is clever. TES is increasingly continuity heavy (why else would people be pissed about Oblivion ignoring as much established lore as humanly possible?) so having a game where a player could realistically influence the outcomes would play hell with Continuity and be too hard. So this way it can happen but not screw everything up.
Point C: Agreed Completely.

EDIT: Nevermind, I saw a pic of the old synopsis. Busted, Bethesda! here's the old synopsis. Since everyone already kiknows it, I don't see why they don't just leave their accidental hints: http://s56.radikal.ru/i151/0910/07/1139f395d0ce.png

[butterfly]

The bolded stuff actually isn't true. There is no orbit of Nirn, Nirn is stationary. Oblivion flows like water around it and the sun, as a hole in the veil of Oblivion, moves around Nirn, and since Oblivion is a thing and not space, there isn't actually 'distance" between it and Nirn, at least not the way it works in the real world.

In other words, Jungle is cooler because it isn't a Gondor rip off, which the Forested Cyrodiil was specifically designed to be. Therefore it should go back to Jungle. I'd rather have a jarring change back towards being interesting than have it be consistently generic.

Yeah... none of you are getting my point at all, and are assuming I'm claiming to be lore proficient. My knowledge of TES lore is incredibly small. My knowledge of fantasy literature writing techniques and world design is incredibly large. I studied it.

I deducted the orbit of Nirn from the fact there is a day/night cycle, a visible 'sun', and seasons. If the 'sun' actually orbits Nirn, then that doesn't change my point at all, which is that the presence of Earth-like seasons and weather systems means, in a Catch 22 situation, that the biomes of Tamriel must now also correspond to the way they appear on Earth since these systems are intrinsically linked. I'm not saying that the laws of this universe are the same as ours. What I am saying is that for this world to look so similar to ours, to have humans just like ours, it must therefore be using using almost identical laws to ours in these areas. Even if it was all created by the gods, they have been created to work in this way.

Instead of using the laws of Nirn to explain the existence of a jungle in Cyrodiil, Bethesda just axed said jungle in favour of a more Earth-like and believable ecosystem for that section of the world. Following the exact literacy rules that I have kept explaining for everyone, but that everyone is taking as an attack on TES lore for some bizarre reason. I'm not making up the fact that all fantasy worlds that appear Earth-like are bound to this issue. That is exactly the reason the jungle is no more. The lore regarding the change was there to make the transition easier for people, but seems to have just confused everyone.

And i'm sure you didn't mean to highlight my statement that Nirn uses Earth-like (and even Earth-identical at times) flora and fauna as incorrect did you? Please tell me that was a mistake...? You may as well say that the main races of Nirn weren't based on our planet's races either.

[Smokey]

Yeah... none of you are getting my point at all, and are assuming I'm claiming to be lore proficient. My knowledge of TES lore is incredibly small. My knowledge of fantasy literature writing techniques and world design is incredibly large. I studied it.

I deducted the orbit of Nirn from the fact there is a day/night cycle, a visible 'sun', and seasons. If the 'sun' actually orbits Nirn, then that doesn't change my point at all, which is that the presence of Earth-like seasons and weather systems means, in a Catch 22 situation, that the biomes of Tamriel must now also correspond to the way they appear on Earth since these systems are intrinsically linked. I'm not saying that the laws of this universe are the same as ours. What I am saying is that for this world to look so similar to ours, to have humans just like ours, it must therefore be using using almost identical laws to ours in these areas. Even if it was all created by the gods, they have been created to work in this way.

Instead of using the laws of Nirn to explain the existence of a jungle in Cyrodiil, Bethesda just axed said jungle in favour of a more Earth-like and believable ecosystem for that section of the world. Following the exact literacy rules that I have kept explaining for everyone, but that everyone is taking as an attack on TES lore for some bizarre reason. I'm not making up the fact that all fantasy worlds that appear Earth-like are bound to this issue. That is exactly the reason the jungle is no more. The lore regarding the change was there to make the transition easier for people, but seems to have just confused everyone.

And i'm sure you didn't mean to highlight my statement that Nirn uses Earth-like (and even Earth-identical at times) flora and fauna as incorrect did you? Please tell me that was a mistake...? You may as well say that the main races of Nirn weren't based on our planet's races either.

...
My only suggestion would be to go and read the lore. This conversation is over.

[elliot mudd]

...
My only suggestion would be to go and read the lore. This conversation is over.

This is where you keep failing

It's not an issue of lore at all, but lore can be used to explain away why something isn't as it should be in an Earth-like world. And it isn't used to do this in the case of the jungle.

But don't worry, keep ignoring my point and making up your own. I had finished this conversation a while ago, you just brought it back up mate.

[Brittany Abner]

Darkstone, forgive me, but...

No one really cares about the outside-of-lore perspective. Stating that Bethesda changed the lore to make things more reminiscent of how earth functions doesn't matter in the slightest, nor does it make a fantasy setting more believable. It changed previously established lore. It doesn't matter in the slightest if that previously-established lore wasn't as reminiscent of how earth functions, because precious few people who play TES for the lore determine how interesting the lore is by how close it is to presenting familiar earth-like aspects.

Your premise that

What I am saying is that for this world to look so similar to ours, to have humans just like ours, it must therefore be using using almost identical laws to ours in these areas. Even if it was all created by the gods, they have been created to work in this way.

makes no sense, even if you're saying there must only be similarities. You've left out the very plausible (not to mention very evidential) case where two separate conclusions are the same yet the causes for those two conclusions are diametrically opposed. Tamriel can have seasons despite the fact that Nirn does not have an elliptical orbit around the hole in the sky (or that the hole in they sky doesn't have an elliptical orbit around Nirn). Tamriel can have jungle wherever it feels like, because where has it ever been stated that Nirn has polar extremes? We don't even know if Nirn is truly a circular planet in the physical sense, or whether it's a finite yet flat plane. We don't know what lies beyond Atmora any more than we know what lies beyond Pyandonea.

The point is, does Bethesda draw on earthly references for its fantasy setting? Of course it does. Every fantasy setting does. However, there is no uniform "amount" of earthly reference that equates to a better world design. Some fantasy settings have massive amounts of earthly references. Some fantasy settings take as few real-world base principles as they can and build distinctively foreign from there. Ignoring the lore-change for a second, Cyrodiil having jungles is neither better or worse for the fantasy setting. It wouldn't matter if Cyrodiil had been jungle. It wouldn't matter if Cyrodiil had been temperate forest. What matters here is that Bethesda established one thing and then changed it with a divine retcon. That's what pisses people off. There was no real reason for the change. There was no real benefit for the change. The change itself was senseless and damaging to the foundation of lore, because now whenever we have a discussion about future titles and where they might take place, we have to deal with the nagging question of, "Well, who's to say Bethesda won't just say 'screw this' to the really unique things established in this location? Who's to say they won't just start changing things just for the hell of it? After all, they've done it before." And that's not something we should have to be worrying about. Continuity is a powerful thing for a fictional series. Continuity is what makes it believable, not how many references to earth it does or doesn't have. And continuity was given a spit in the face when they pushed Talos into a divine position of flora-clearing.

EDIT: Grammar

[Brentleah Jeffs]

Darkstone, what you don't seem to grasp is that Nirn ISN'T AN EARTH-BASED WORLD.