[Madison Poo]

when bethesda made cyrodiil a jungle they were not thinking about making it more realistic, or about ripping of Gondor (which, btw, is not a forest), or about flipping off the lore masters. they were thinking that a forest would be more appropriate a environment for the story they wanted to tell than a jungle would have been. in the end, tamriel is a setting in which bethesda tells a story.

it does not matter whether we agree or disagree about this, because they did it and it is now lore. turning cyrodiil back into a jungle is confusing and further corrupting the issue, and should not be done. we have what we have, lets deal with it instead of complaining for 4 more years.

[Michelle davies]

lets deal with it instead of complaining for 4 more years.

But it's so fuuuuuun!

[Roanne Bardsley]

you have a messed up concept of 'fun' :huh:

[Ricky Rayner]

you have a messed up concept of 'fun' :huh:

I was being sarcastic.

[carley moss]

Darkstorne, this is where you come off as not having any credit, how can you say that this isn't a lore issue, take this for example, there are people in TES, does this mean that their internal organs are identical to those of a normal person, no it doesn't, there are argonians in TES which can be classed as amphibious, does this mean that they don't have mammary glands? I'll leave that one for you to figure out.

TES is fantasy, it is made-up, sure elements are borrowed from real life examples, but who really wants to make up the names of a 100+ flora? Why walk around the block when your destination is right next door? That's why they borrow real-life elements, and thats why this is a lore issue. Lore is practically the only thing which defines the TES world, there is no such thing as a sun, there is no such thing as stars, heck, there isn't even space if we look at it that way, these are all used to convey metaphysical meanings and anomalies to interested parties such as the fan base. Lore shows this and you would see this if you asked the right questions.

As for the climate argument, even though i agree that transition has to be present to create a believable world, what you aren't getting is that TES doesn't have to be a believable world, if TES was desert to the north, and tundra to the south, would it make sense? No. Would it be ok? Yes, because it is made-up, it is a fantasy, even though it can act real it doesn't have to be, and this is the crucial point you are missing, just because it looks real, doesn't mean it needs to be real.

[Judy Lynch]

But Lady N IS right. Complaining too much about it is senseless, and changing it WOULD only make things more confusing (yes, yes, I know I am being hypocritical. Sometimes it takes a man a while before he sees the error of his ways). My argument wasn't about having it changed back, though.

[naome duncan]

There was no real reason for the change. There was no real benefit for the change. The change itself was senseless and damaging to the foundation of lore, because now whenever we have a discussion about future titles and where they might take place, we have to deal with the nagging question of, "Well, who's to say Bethesda won't just say 'screw this' to the really unique things established in this location? Who's to say they won't just start changing things just for the hell of it?

The reason for the change was to make the world more believable from a human point of view. If we see jungle next to tundra, something nags at our brain telling us 'this isn't right'. And yes, there is every chance that Bethesda will change the lore of other provinces for future games, because TES is such a young and unexplored fantasy world compared to others, that much of the world's layout and history is still relatively unknown to its makers. That's why i'm saying it shouldn't be taken so badly that Cyrodiil was altered, and we should even expect similar changes in the future to other unexplored areas.

Darkstone, what you don't seem to grasp is that Nirn ISN'T AN EARTH-BASED WORLD.

It is an Earth-based world. You can't deny that.

As for the climate argument, even though i agree that transition has to be present to create a believable world, what you aren't getting is that TES doesn't have to be a believable world, if TES was desert to the north, and tundra to the south, would it make sense? No. Would it be ok? Yes, because it is made-up, it is a fantasy, even though it can act real it doesn't have to be, and this is the crucial point you are missing, just because it looks real, doesn't mean it needs to be real.

Ok I can agree with you here. TES doesn't have to be a believable world. But I much prefer fantasy worlds when they are believable. When I can look at them and say "Wow, this could really happen. It all makes so much sense within its own lore that I can really immerse myself and see this being a real place somewhere." When you have conflicting biome locations, the world becomes harder to believe, and loses immersion factor. Sure it's all subject to opinion, but this is the widest opinion, which is why this method of world creation is used by almost every single author in history.



ThatOneGuy and UnknownK: You've both made some great points here. I can certainly see where you are coming from, because of course it is all subjective, and you two are happy to look at this world without question. You see it is as: whatever is there, it's there for a reason, and despite it not making sense in our world, it must make sense in Nirn, or it wouldn't be there at all. Am I right here?

I have a very logical mind, and a strong education in Ecology, and so I need a world to make sense to be believable. Hence my strong support of an Earth-based fantasy world needing to have a coherent geographical layout, with inconsistencies being well explained by lore. As far as I can see, Bethesda didn't put much thought at all into biomes when they first created Nirn, and strongly felt the need to correct this with Cyrodiil. Otherwise the change wouldn't have been made. So hopefully you're starting to understand where i'm coming from too. I'm not making things up. If anything i'm just taking everything one step further than you. ^_^

[Sxc-Mary]

I have a very logical mind, and a strong education in Ecology, and so I need a world to make sense to be believable. Hence my strong support of an Earth-based fantasy world needing to have a coherent geographical layout, with inconsistencies being well explained by lore. As far as I can see, Bethesda didn't put much thought at all into biomes when they first created Nirn, and strongly felt the need to correct this with Cyrodiil. Otherwise the change wouldn't have been made. So hopefully you're starting to understand where i'm coming from too. I'm not making things up. If anything i'm just taking everything one step further than you. ^_^

ok, as long as we are all friends.

[Skrapp Stephens]

ok, as long as we are all friends.

Of course man! I love The Elder Scrolls universe, and I love all of you! :hugs:

[Rob Davidson]

if TES was desert to the north, and tundra to the south, would it make sense? No. Would it be ok? Yes

See Earth's southern hemisphere. earth geography isnt even earth based, or more accurately, geography depends on a whole lot more than just what is located in the south and in the north. mountains and bodies of water, for example, influence climate greatly. maryland and greece are at the same altitude, but it sure aint greece over here.

"earth based" is in inspiration only. we have mountains and people, yes, but the climate is my no means consistent. Maryland is, for all intents and purposes, Cyrodiil. However, we dont suddenly hit a giant wall of snowy mountains, nor do we have an desert to our south and west. even with cyrodiil being a forest the climate is still messed up (at least according to your definition of earth based): notice how Tamriel's largest, hottest desert is next to its snowiest province. Or how the south of tamriel goes from a swamp to a desert to a rain forest. or how highrock is not a snowy wasteland despite its northern location.

Nirn is a dragon, a flat plane, a planet, and a figment of a schizophrenic dude's imagination. coolness (see PGE1) trumps any sort of contrived biome believability. especially when paired with consistency.

[Janeth Valenzuela Castelo]

Am I completely wrong in my recollection that Todd stated in some interview or another that Cyrodiil is forest mainly because it is more familiar to people, not because it makes more sense when comparing biomes with Earth (which seems a really far fetched to me; Darkstorne may have a strong eduction in ecology, but I'm fairly sure most everyone else does not. People here may be familiar with the various biomes of Tamriel, but I suspect most players haven't a clue. I don't think many people would trip over the strange arrangement of climate zones), because it reminds them of LotR or because the story works better in such an environment (it does? Granted, it's been a while since I played it through, but iirc the Oblivion story could have played out on a moonscape and it would have made no less sense from an environmental perspective :huh:)?

Edit: hmm, seems I'm contributing to some wicked off-topicness

[Bedford White]

Yeah, I read an interview a couple years back where Todd said he wanted Oblivion to have a Lord of the Rings vibe.

[Cagla Cali]

notice how Tamriel's largest, hottest desert is next to its snowiest province. Or how the south of tamriel goes from a swamp to a desert to a rain forest. or how highrock is not a snowy wasteland despite its northern location.

Which is why I wouldn't be surprised to see further changes in lore or layout, akin to the removal of Cyrodiil's jungle, at later dates.

But as a quick example of the techniques that could be used to create cohesion in the world: The western coast of Tamriel could have something similar to our north atlantic drift, warming the shores of High Rock and Hammerfell, as well as the Summerset Isles, creating a significant impact on the overall temperature of those regions. Skyrim's altitude could be the highest landmass in Tamriel to account for the colder and snowier locales. Black Marsh could be incredibly low to seal level and lie directly on top of the aquafer in most of it's province, resulting in swamps and carrs. This waterbed would be pushed lower underground due to a much thicker and less permeable bedrock in Elsweyr's region, providing scant chance for soil to regenerate and plant life to colonize the area. That bedrock gives way as we reach Valenwood, and plant life has been given ample chance to dominate this area, becoming a rainforest in the heat this close to the equator (if there is an equator. It's certainly hotter south of Cyrodiil if there are rainforests and deserts). As for Daggerfall being mainly desert... well there I would have to resort to the influence of the gods warming the land. But wouldn't that be better than redesigning the entire province and blaming that on a god?

[Sanctum]

Yeah, I read an interview a couple years back where Todd said he wanted Oblivion to have a Lord of the Rings vibe.

This debate should have ended with this statement I don't see why you persist in trying to explain things with our world or thinking the developers changed Cyrodil to make sense

[Roisan Sweeney]

This debate should have ended with this statement I don't see why you persist in trying to explain things with our world or thinking the developers changed Cyrodil to make sense

What the hell are you talking about? Someone mentioned Todd saying this and I remembered it as well. Chill out, sauerkraut.

[Taylor Bakos]

What the hell are you talking about? Someone mentioned Todd saying this and I remembered it as well. Chill out, sauerkraut.

I wasn't talking to you, I just quoted what you said for the poster below you.

[Lizzie]

I wasn't talking to you, I just quoted what you said for the poster below you.

Ah, okay. I was like "what the heck did I do?"

[Tha King o Geekz]

The way I look at it, Cyrodiil is a melting pot of all the Tamrielic cultures (the main ones anyway), and the landscape in a way reflects this. There's a little bit of Black Marsh in Blackwood, a bit of Skyrim in the Jerall Mountains, etc. A temperate forest makes sense for this kind of setup because it allows for a more seamless blend in a province that doesn't have the high ridges and such similar to Vvardenfell (which imo made Vvardenfell's varying geography easier to justify).

I have always felt Bethesda put more emphasis on how things can affect what they're trying to achieve with the story/setting/tone/etc. of their game and the lore that surrounds it, rather than having emphasis on mundane details such as wind currents and how they affect climate. To me they're not the type to micromanage about those kinds of details that benefit a story or setting so little, if at all.

[Elea Rossi]

Ah, okay. I was like "what the heck did I do?"

yeah the thought crossed my mind when I posted it that you might think im talking about you since I forgot the other posters name lol

[Georgine Lee]

A temperate forest makes sense for this kind of setup because it allows for a more seamless blend in a province that doesn't have the high ridges and such similar to Vvardenfell

I have always felt Bethesda put more emphasis on how things can affect what they're trying to achieve with the story/setting/tone/etc. of their game and the lore that surrounds it, rather than having emphasis on mundane details such as wind currents and how they affect climate. To me they're not the type to micromanage about those kinds of details that benefit a story or setting so little, if at all.

Yes, exactly. It makes for a more seamless blend, because having things like jungle next to tundra would appear out of place. This directly affects how easily Bethesda can achieve things like story/setting/tone, particularly setting. Wind currents and climate may seem mundane, and even if Bethesda aren't thinking about them (highly unlikey they aren't thinking at least about climates) then they're obviously still thinking about them subconciously, and the effects they would have on the land. Hence the 'seamless blend' you're talking about.

In short, if I was wrong about this, then Cyrodiil would still be a jungle, and Bethesda wouldn't be making attempts at a more 'seamless world'. They'd just have a line where grassland suddenly changes to desert without a slow blend. Where snow changes to arid rocky ground within a centimeter. They do consider climate and believable biomes. If they didn't, it would be like playing Aion. That game does have sudden zone changes almost as abrupt as lines. It's weird.

[Taylah Haines]

Yeah, I read an interview a couple years back where Todd said he wanted Oblivion to have a Lord of the Rings vibe.

I remember that interview and recognized quite clearly that TES IV was a LOTR knock-off. Which is why I feel the Elder Scrolls series is going downhill ever since Todd took over. Unless I hear excellent reviews of TES V first then I'm not buying.

[Jani Eayon]

I understand what Darkstorne is saying but i don't agree to the reason of the Jungle change.

Anyone ever think:
Jungle, Imperial City, PC technology = Lag, Crash and Burn

Or maybe they wanted Valenwood to look distinctively different from Cyrodiil? Think about it. Cyrodiil is the providence of the main human race that we can relate to the most of all races, So here you have a "plain" race and a "plain" looking Cyrodiil yet inside the same providence its edges are surrounded with geographical differences. Each one a different flavor. If they are gonna get around to making all games set in a different providence, why make 2 settings the same?

Though i still think:
Jungle, Imperial City, PC technology = Lag, Crash and Burn

Now on-topic conclusion:

Jungle Cyrodill was Lore
Non-Jungle Cyrodill is Lore
Greg Keyes book... wont even describe what we already know Cyrodiil as! ...(Non-Jungle)

[Katy Hogben]

I remember that interview and recognized quite clearly that TES IV was a LOTR knock-off. Which is why I feel the Elder Scrolls series is going downhill ever since Todd took over. Unless I hear excellent reviews of TES V first then I'm not buying.

Oblivion got excellent reviews and still you don't seem to like it. It is most likely that tES V will get great reviews even if it is a LOTR rip off.

[Kayla Oatney]

I remember that interview and recognized quite clearly that TES IV was a LOTR knock-off. Which is why I feel the Elder Scrolls series is going downhill ever since Todd took over. Unless I hear excellent reviews of TES V first then I'm not buying.

Oblivion got excellent reviews. :hubbahubba:

[Ruben Bernal]

Oblivion got excellent reviews. :hubbahubba:

-_-