Fascism is a movement and a specific philosophy that came about under certain circumstances with specific inspirations. To apply it to things like the Roman and Mongol Empires is just to relegate it the position 'a quirk of human nature.'

We fought Nazi Germany, not 'a country with a government based on our lesser instincts,'

No, I meant the style of Tamrielic Empire.

Though as to our point, fascism as a movement and a specific philosophy is known to have used emotion and draw upon our human natures. Though, I don't think they are "lesser" natures. Just dangerous ones, but then anything is potentially dangerous. The Empires of the past fueled themselves on the drive of conquest and glory, things mirrored in the twentieth century cataclysms of war, when emotion overode the other senses. What was Tiber's purpose but for conguest and glory in the beginning?

Fascism doesn't mean imperialism, or even expansionism. It's more an ultraconservative crackdown on a bad status quo, using subversive and minority elements as scapegoats. Then society is reordered into a totalitarian hydra of state and military, and sometimes clergy. None of that reminds me of Tiber Septim in the least.

They were just fighting to be at the top of the pyramid like they were doing since the beginning of time. If you're bent on shoehorning a real-life movement onto Talos, choose Carlism.

Yes, fascism dosen't neccesarily mean imperialism or expansionism at all. Franco lived out his many years a fascist ruler of Spain without being toppled like his European cohorts had, but then again, we can't define politcal facism without dying the death of a thousand definitions, for which there is no time. Philosophically speaking though, the origins of Tiber's Empire had all the markings of the romantic drive for conquest practically emulated by nearly all heroes of antiquity.

Though, I don't understand how any Empire can possibly hope to survive long with being harsh on the military side. Tiber Septim conquered the entire continent, but you don't equate his name with military conquest and glory?

If the Empire is fascist, then fascism is merely the universal zeitgeist of Tamriel, and as such meaningless.

And yes, modern (hint) movements do get a thousand very specific definitions. I was going to mention Franco, except he wasn't a classic fascist. He is best described as Francoist. That should be an indication of how specific this stuff is in European history. And yes, I say European history, not human history. I believe that you can throw labels like fascism around to communicate a point about the nature and tone of policies or governments, but it won't ever be an accurate description or a proper categorization.

Show me the money! It's the economy, stupid. The golden rule: thems as has the gold makes the rules.

Seriously, financial advantage, increased material resources, control of the means of production, drives both people and empire far further than abstract concepts like conquest for its own sake, ever-fleeting glory, or ephemeral emotion. What use is that stretch of land, the title of ruler, or being king of the hill, if it doesn't bring riches to the peasant, craftsman, vassal, and lord?

Every government rises and falls on its ability to distribute the riches that the people fought and died for. Grecian democracies died not from military threats, but when people voted their own self interest out of the treasury. The most serious acts of rebellion usurp this authority, whether by dumping tea into Boston Harbor, forcing new states to decide on freedom or slavery to support an agrarian economy against industrialization, marching to the sea shore to gather your own salt, or establishing a trade embargo against Imperial goods. Lands conquer other lands (stompy robots aside) because they pay for arms, training to use them, transport to get them there, and an entire civilian military-industrial complex to keep the supply train running.

The essence of empire is economic: who gets to regulate and especially tax trade. This is also the bargain provinces make with empire: protect me against enemies foreign and domestic with your cut of our wealth. Fail this, as the Septim Empire did in the provincial wars during the Simulacrum, and again during the Daedric Invasion, and provinces shop around for their own defense forces and refuse to give tribute. If enough provinces do this it can undercut Legion funding and loyalty, reducing the cost of disobedience. Eventually provinces cut back defense costs in the lull between wars, scaling back their standing army instead of funding permanent legions, ornate asylums for mad emperors, and disastrous public-works projects like roads and cities in the Black Marsh. This of course lasts only till Akavir invades again, or the Aka wakes up, whichever comes first.

But the again, Martins kid would also be the son of a devout priest who ultmately sacrificed his life for his people, daedra worshipper or not, the fact tat he gave up his old ways to become a priest and then ultimately saved tamriel speak alot for his character.

In short, Martins kid comes from a good stock.

All from Benito Mussolini. No pre-modern state can be fascist however unpleasant they are. There are some pre-modern states like the Assyrians who might have made very good fascists if they'd lasted into the modern age but they didn't.

I don't think the devs will write of Martin having sired a child. It would be too similar to the main quest of "Oblivion". Somehow the devs have to top each previous game. I don't know how they can; nor will we ever be shown Akavir, I think.

I agree with you on all of that except the Akavir statement. Maybe not in TES V will we see any references to Akavir, but down the line I assume they would exploit the full potential of Akavir, as its own title as well. IMHO

*snip*

Zeigeist of the Imperials, I'd say. I mean, we wouldn't say such about the Khajiti.

The Kajiit strike me as the "Hakuna Matatta dancers" of tamriel--- As long as they got a moonsugar sweet roll in one hand, a bottle of skooma in the other, and a nice patch of hot sand to lay out on, they are happy.

I think they take their roles as guardians of the ja-Kha'jay pretty seriously. If I compared them to anything, I would compare them to Native Americans on a vision quest. That's what Moon Sugar does, after all.

"Dude... I think I can see the Lattice!"

"Gnarly!"

But... Are the Khajiit still holding general elections everytime there's a full moon?

Tiber Septim did conquer the land, but in doing so, he unified the land, greatly reducing infighting between the people in Tamriel. He brought Tamriel out of an age of chaos. His Empire also outlawed slavery and introduced religious tolerance.

The Mer would call this nothing but propaganda.


Outlawed slavery....except in Morrowind. Religious tolerance? A sentence of death awaits (awaited?) any worshipper of Sheogorath, Mehrunes Dagon, Malacath or Molag Bal in Morrowind. The Ordinators would kick your door down and steal you away in order to "correct" you in the big, hovering umm...moon over Vivec City, if you were lucky.

Religious tolerance? Try worshipping the God of Worms in Morrowind. Necromancy will get you killed.

Praise JHUNAL that the evil times are grinding to a halt under His firm and instructive hand.

___The Word Merchant of Julianos


ps Remember that http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Morrowind:Talos_Cult were also trying to assassinate Uriel Septim VII alongside the Mythic Dawn, although for different motives apparently.

I reccomend reading the Skyrim history section of the 3rd pocket guide. I believe I saw a tidbit as to their still being those of royal blood.

Who praises Jhunal any more? The Nords, who worshipped him once, ignore him now. Anyone have an explanation why?





Jhunal was popular enough among Alessia's Nordic allies for her to include in the pantheon. Taking "modern" to mean the Third Era, we can probably date the Jhunal-to-Julianos conversion to between when Alessia formed the Eight Divines pantheon (http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Tamriel:People_A#Alessia), and the rule of Tiber (http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Tamriel:Tiber_Septim#Tiber_Septim), which led to the Nine Divines. That's about 3550 years, not a specific event. Maybe worship of Jhunal faded when the Elder Scrolls moved from the care of the Aldmoran Nords to the Cyrodiilic Imperials. I wouldn't be surprised that whoever keeps the Elder Scrolls ends up also worshipping a corresponding god.



Oooh, neat. Thanks for the reference. So whomever the new emperor is, has to keep from ticking off three groups of assassins, one within his own legion. Nice.

C'mon guys, Martin is not exactly very young and he's got the most charming voice I've ever heard (I love Sean Bean). He could have a child with someone in his life. I would assume that there maybe an heir whom still has the Septim blood that flows through living out there.

I think the evidence speaks for itself. A unified land will have a lot less fighting. Not to mention that Mer have been able to rule, as in the case of Ocato and Katariah.


Morrowind was the exception. The Empire could not bring abolitionism and religious tolerance fully to Morrowind, because as defined by the Armistice, Morrowind still made its own laws. The Temple were the ones that killed daedra worshippers; the Empire had no say in the matter. However, the Empire did look the other way with abolitionism, and the Legion even came to blows with the Ordinators twice. It is highly likely that if they could, the Empire would stop it.

As for worshipping Mannimarco, Morrowind was the only place where there were laws against necromancy. And even then, most necromancers anywhere got killed because they were hostile and attacked first.

The Talos Cult did plan on killing the Emperor, but the Talos-worshipping Blades were the ones who guarded him.

But why were they hostile?
Why were Daedra worshippers in Morrowind hostile?

If you report the, they get killed, so they want to make sure you don't report them.

...

I wasn't really asking, you know.