So how do you define if a regime is legit? And do you actually think it would be better if the various kingdoms continued to fight each other endlessly?

This form of quasi-utilitarianism is always brought up, and I know, I'm guilty of it too many times, and it won't get us anywhere, unless you can take into account all factors past and present and possibe. Which is quite impossible.

Perhaps ask this; why does the Empire exist? Why did the First Empire exist? How do the Cyrodiilic Emperors claim authority over Tamriel?

I think, when you go back in time to the origins of the mannish empires, you'll find it's more a racial thing by men over the mer, justified perhaps by revenge against the Ayleids, and not that the emperors of the First Empire "just wanted everybody to get along".

I do not think that the Empire derives it's authority as the moral daddy of Tamriel - that's for the propagandists and the aristocracies to feel good about themselves. It's the strongest polity on the continent, so people do what it says. It's not powerful in Morrowind, becuase it couldn't crush the Dunmer, so that's why the Dunmer make their own laws and pay homage to the Empire in tribute.

It's not powerful in Morrowind because Vivec made Tiber Septim an offer he couldn't refuse.

Either way, the comment stands.

Then again, who makes the rules on who should rule Tamriel?

That is one my questions I asked. I do not think there are any rules, but how do the Imperials claim authority?

Power. The Divine Right of kings only exists sofar as you power to enforce it, or are powerful enough to make the people beleive and not question. I think that in Tamriel power confers right, when your dealing in empire.

1.
Ending the wars between the individual Kingdoms of Tamriel ("Days and Nights of Blood and
Venom")

2.
Uniting Tamriel against the attacks from Akavir. Only a united Tamriel could stand a chance of
defending itself against the invading Tsaesci.

So, it's perfectly fine for a Tsaesci to rule the empire right?

I find 2. rather silly, given the Tsaesci and other Akiviri invaders have been fended off again and again without Tamriel being united.

Only after they conquered whole kingdoms. You have to admit, there is a difference between fending off an invading force from a different continent right at the coast where they land, or only after a years-long war in which said invading force has devastated your neighbours. On the whole, and certainly in the long run, the former is a lot less bloody than the latter.

True,
but it is not like the empires qonquest went without masses of bloodshed. So basicly what you're saying (correct me if I am wrong) is that those deaths were for the greater good as they lead to less deaths in the end because the empire was better at defending versus invasions, right?

"the greater good" is a slippery slope....

Actually, a lot of the Empire was won with surprisingly little bloodshed and fighting. Tiber Septim only actually "conquered" a couple of provinces. Morrowind and Elswyr were taken by amistice, Hammerfall was taken at first by playing two sides against each other, then by armistice. The Nords switched sides after Sacre Tor. The Aldmeri Dominion was taken by the Numidium, so it is very possible that their was no one who actually died. Meaning the only provinces taken by pure force was High Rock and Black Marsh.

But the Akaviri had nothing to do with the Empire. Morrowind fended off an Akaviri invasion by themselves, and the only time the Akaviri had anything to do with Cyrodiil was during the Reman times.

Only after Tiber's best troops were repeatedly slaughtered over the course of years of trying to conquer Hammerfell. The death of Thassad wouldn't have even taken them down, it was the betrayal of A'Tor and the split that caused Hammerfell to be conquered. And then a bit of resistance a bit later brought them a bit more favor.

The Black marsh was afflicted only in that the Empire did a smash and grab around the edges of the territory, and Tiber Septim (and almost all the other Septims) being Breton or raised in High rock, it was only small cheese to conquer people who weren't aligned with him. Nothing grand, I assure you.

Which proves my point further. Hammerfall is the only place where real bloodshed took place. Most of the Empire was taken with relatively little fighting.

Oh yeah, I was supporting your position. It seems to me that the empire is an empire for no reason other than tradition these days, there is no robot to force the issue. Which is why I think some nobles will jump at the chance to split and run.

An invasion could unite parts of the empire again though, for the sake of a better story I hope they stay the hell away from that.

I think Alinor was thrashed about quite massively. You can't put "Numidium" in the same sentance as "relatively peaceful". Ever.

From what I remeber, Hammerfell was in a civil war. Tiber didn't play them against each other, after A'tors father died the Forbears and Crowns really split and went about killing each other, only with A'tor and the Crowns slaughtering the Forbears. Only after that, did the empire get involved, when the Forbears agreed that in return for aid, they would come into the empire.

A'tor, was beaten back by the legions with apparent ease. The best Imperial troops we're not quite slaughtered I don't think, given A'tor constantly lost ground before being forced to retreat to Stros Mak'i. The Empire met their match on the sea, not on land it would appear, and that where the bloodshead really came, ending with the empire having to call their pet dragon in. There was alot of bloodshead, but most of it was Ra'Gada blood. Hammerfell wasn't taken by Armistace, it was conquered.

Now, after good o'l Cyrus stirred up some trouble, did Hammerfell rise up and kick the legions ass, in which Tiber was forced to make an Armistice favoring them. Hammerfell wasn't taken by an armistice in any occasion.

As for more bloodshead, Tiber invaded Morrowind, in which many, many bloody and devistating battles took place, or am I thinking of Remen?

High Rock was conquered too, so I would add Hammerfell and High Rock as the two areas 'fully' conquered, but either way, there was tons of bloodshead.

I don't think we get the whole story after Numidium. No matter what, i don't think Numidum was all that was used to conquer the Aldmeri Dominion, it doesn't seem likly at all. There had to have been some actual fighting in between, it just doesn't seem logical they would give up at the sight of sir' stomps alot.

I'll let you see where you contradicted yourself.

You're thinking Remen. Vivec compromised and gave Tiber the Numidium in exchange for autonomy

But as Shades said, Tiber is Breton, and much of the Breton armies were beat at Sancre Tor.


No, the Numidium screws up time and makes it that the Dominion was just part of the Empire, just as in the Warp of the West made each kingdom just win. The Numidium isn't as much of a weapon as a reality changer.

Edit: I really don't know why that last quote box is so screwed up.

Ahh, silly me, I always get that part confused with Remen and Tiber. As for contradicting myself, I don't see it, but I'm tired, so eh, maby I did, I just don't see it.

Tiber is said to be either a Nord, a Breton, an Imperial a Nead or even an Atamorian, or is that the same as a Nead? eitherway, no one knows for a fact.

Tiber is either a Breton or a Atmoran (which is impossible). If you believe the Heresy, he is a Breton, and Wulfarth is the Atmoran part. He definately is not a Nede or an Imperial.

You said Tiber was forced to create Armistice, then in the next sentence said there was not armistice involved.

Why is it impossible that he's Atmoran? Or what about a Nord?

lol, oops, looks like I did. Actually, what I was saying was that in either case, Hammerfell didn't compromise with the empire in either case. First time, they we're out right conquered, the second time, the empire lost and they we're the ones who had to compromise.

Isn't an Atmoran called a Nede?

The Atmorans were the proto-Nords of Tamriel. Everyone (in-game included) confuses them with the Nedes, who were Tamriel's indigenous humans, along with Kothringi.

It's impossible that Tiber was Atmoran because Atmora had been uninhabited for a couple millenia. He could be Nord, but I would say he is probably Breton. The Underking was from Atmora then.

i believe i heard somewhere that tiber septim was orginal a breton