New Engine disscussion thread

Post » Wed Mar 17, 2010 11:34 pm

If they can achieve Just Cause 2 level graphics, I will be amazed and more than satisfied. Does anyone who knows what I'm talking about think that is a likely scenario?


Yes, but I have actually higher hopes than Just Cause 2 graphics. I'm hoping more for something like Red Dead Redemption graphics... which is even better I think.
The best possible graphics so far seem to be CryEngine 3 graphics. Not sure if that's what they've done here though...

We do know, however, that Bethesda has been hiring new people. Very good people.
They've stated that they have been able to be very very selective, they've been able to afford it.
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Daniel Holgate
 
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Post » Thu Mar 18, 2010 7:40 am

As much as I would love to see tessellation effects in a TES game PLEASE keep in mind that TES V is also announced for dated hardware like the XBox 360. I'm sure it will look prettier than Oblivion, but do not expect groundbreaking GFX stuff fitting for modern gaming PCs.
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Je suis
 
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Post » Thu Mar 18, 2010 8:12 am

Yes, but I have actually higher hopes than Just Cause 2 graphics. I'm hoping more for something like Red Dead Redemption graphics... which is even better I think.
The best possible graphics so far seem to be CryEngine 3 graphics. Not sure if that's what they've done here though...

We do know, however, that Bethesda has been hiring new people. Very good people.
They've stated that they have been able to be very very selective, they've been able to afford it.

Red Dead Redemption looks better than Just Cause 2? Does that extend to consoles, as well? I think Just Cause 2 on my PS3 looks amazing and I can only imagine what high-end PC gamers can run.
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Ells
 
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Post » Thu Mar 18, 2010 4:48 am

As much as I would love to see tessellation effects in a TES game PLEASE keep in mind that TES V is also announced for dated hardware like the XBox 360. I'm sure it will look prettier than Oblivion, but do not expect groundbreaking GFX stuff fitting for modern gaming PCs.


Look at the CryEngine 3 and how they have done it for PC, xbox360 and ps3.
Restrictions of consoles is not really a valid excuse to "limit" the PCs possibilities. And takes a lot to actually get to that point of restriction as well...
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Gemma Woods Illustration
 
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Post » Thu Mar 18, 2010 9:25 am

Look at the CryEngine 3 and how they have done it for PC, xbox360 and ps3.
Restrictions of consoles is not really a valid excuse to "limit" the PCs possibilities. And takes a lot to actually get to that point of restriction as well...


Aye, true. I guess I'm more worried about their willingness to invest some extra time in the PC Version. *still occasional accidently trys the "M" key to open the map in oblivion*
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Taylor Tifany
 
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Post » Thu Mar 18, 2010 9:05 am

This will never happen. Let me rephrase. This will never happen.

In case you missed the above, perhaps you are hard of hearing (what?)

This will never happen.


Ok, that's out of the way:

What I wish for: Skyrim as a cutting edge game.

Tessellation. Directx11 Features. Complex geometry, that makes every other game rethink graphics entirely. Insane levels of detail, thick lighting that bounces. Fog volumes that shift as things pass through them. Separate interactive blades of grass. Separate leaves on trees that dynamically have a physics system that reacts to weather and touch. Weight/Bone based physics, similar to grand theft auto 4's physics animation system only with the same amount of joins as the actual human body.. Reactive water, that has waves, shifts with the wind, and crashes on the shores. Support for up to 24 processors, 8 graphics cards no ram limit (mods), textures for the pc version that are 32 times larger than the console versions, and require a graphics card, or cards, several generations ahead of what we currently have. An ai system that lives a complete and full life, which can then branch according to your interactions with it. Everything, including the ground you walk on, is completely destructible, debris stays forever, as do corpses, the game scales the polygons of actors according to how many are on screen and what your pc spec can handle. The game engine dynamically scales the detail and roundness of objects according to your system specs, a computer 20 years from now will have multi billions of polygons with the 50 processor cpus available. A randomly generated island system, 500 times the size of the original gameworld, which in itself will be 18 times larger than oblivion. These islands have almost no limit, and contain randomly generated dungeons and monsters and pre-scripted quests out of a pool of 10,000 that are unique to that randomly selected island, allowing for a playtime of over 10,000 hours, these islands can also be instanced for mods. Two billion animations, each of which trigger according to the appropriate circumstance, be it combat, love, or simply idle animations. The magic system will allow for an infinite amount of spell types, according to an infinite amount of factors. The main quest will last for 200 hours if you speed run it. Side quests, of which there are over a million, will last upwards of 10 years of non-stop playtime. 500 guilds. Each of which has a unique storyline lasting anywhere from 20-200 hours. Combat is movement activated, so you wave the mouse as a sword, and it shifts and moves as you move it, 1:1, the game comes with a mouse attachment that detects weight and movement of your hand.

I could go on.
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Nick Jase Mason
 
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Post » Wed Mar 17, 2010 11:04 pm

Like Gunmaster95, I would hope for better handling of shadows in the new engine - that alone would do wonders to how the game would look.

I wouldn't mind a more efficient way of handling LOD in exterior cells.

My biggest request? Double at least the amount of references we can put in a single cell. :)

Miax
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Ana Torrecilla Cabeza
 
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Post » Wed Mar 17, 2010 11:42 pm

Something I recently thought of-it would be excellent if they included "real" clouds in Skyrim, especially considering how mountainous the area is I think sticking with the same old sky with a bunch of simple two-dimensional layers to it might not cut it anymore-yeah I suppose they still could do it the old way, but it would be really cool to walk up a mountain and literally walk through the clouds-and if they end up including mountable dragons (or even if someone ends up modding it in like that one mod for Oblivion) it would make flying around through and above those clouds pretty dang awesome. Also, it could help make weather effects a bit more dynamic as well.
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Sylvia Luciani
 
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Post » Thu Mar 18, 2010 6:18 am

I could go on and on about a ton of technical stuff, a lot of it over most on these forums heads :shocking: But just a visual target that everyone can understand is enough for now. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iwizeeBTnk8, for those who haven't seen it.
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Darlene DIllow
 
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Post » Thu Mar 18, 2010 5:51 am

Red Dead Redemption looks better than Just Cause 2? Does that extend to consoles, as well? I think Just Cause 2 on my PS3 looks amazing and I can only imagine what high-end PC gamers can run.

On the PC Just Cause 2 is DX10. It looks very good maxed and I would be happy if Skyrim matched it. I would still like it to be a little better though.

I could go on and on about a ton of technical stuff, a lot of it over most on these forums heads :shocking: But just a visual target that everyone can understand is enough for now. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iwizeeBTnk8, for those who haven't seen it.

Feel free to get technical. I'd like to hear it.

Separate interactive blades of grass. Separate leaves on trees that dynamically have a physics system that reacts to weather and touch. Weight/Bone based physics, similar to grand theft auto 4's physics animation system only with the same amount of joins as the actual human body.. Reactive water, that has waves, shifts with the wind, and crashes on the shores. Support for up to 24 processors, 8 graphics cards no ram limit (mods), textures for the pc version that are 32 times larger than the console versions, and require a graphics card, or cards, several generations ahead of what we currently have. An ai system that lives a complete and full life, which can then branch according to your interactions with it. Everything, including the ground you walk on, is completely destructible, debris stays forever, as do corpses, the game scales the polygons of actors according to how many are on screen and what your pc spec can handle. The game engine dynamically scales the detail and roundness of objects according to your system specs, a computer 20 years from now will have multi billions of polygons with the 50 processor cpus available. A randomly generated island system, 500 times the size of the original gameworld, which in itself will be 18 times larger than oblivion. These islands have almost no limit, and contain randomly generated dungeons and monsters and pre-scripted quests out of a pool of 10,000 that are unique to that randomly selected island, allowing for a playtime of over 10,000 hours, these islands can also be instanced for mods. Two billion animations, each of which trigger according to the appropriate circumstance, be it combat, love, or simply idle animations. The magic system will allow for an infinite amount of spell types, according to an infinite amount of factors. The main quest will last for 200 hours if you speed run it. Side quests, of which there are over a million, will last upwards of 10 years of non-stop playtime. 500 guilds. Each of which has a unique storyline lasting anywhere from 20-200 hours. Combat is movement activated, so you wave the mouse as a sword, and it shifts and moves as you move it, 1:1, the game comes with a mouse attachment that detects weight and movement of your hand.

I could go on.

8 Graphics cards is not currently supported by anything anywhere. Also, We don't all have 4 Tesla cards running to calculate all of that grass, the leaves, and water. Also also, 24 processors? I know you said it won't happen but I think we should be slightly realistic.
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Madison Poo
 
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Post » Thu Mar 18, 2010 10:18 am

I could go on and on about a ton of technical stuff, a lot of it over most on these forums heads :shocking: But just a visual target that everyone can understand is enough for now. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iwizeeBTnk8, for those who haven't seen it.

For consoles I think that's a good visual target, as well as low on PC. For a maximum setting PC version though I'd expect the level of detail I see in the uniengine Heaven benchmark, lighting and shaders being more towards this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-pogBXwt3qk...something we already have running on High end DX10 PC's. So I dont think itd be unrealistic to have max settings targeting high end DX11 PC's looking like this. Itd run like dog crap but max setting should be future proof, will give a game that relies heavily on visuals longer legs.
When it comes to art style I know RDR is far from that Crysis vid I linked. Of course art style would be more consistent was linking it for a target of shaders, geometry levels etc.

Edit: i know the waves in Crysis have been linked before in this thread. If anyone is interested in how it achieves this it uses a CPU based form of Tessellation.
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Tai Scott
 
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Post » Thu Mar 18, 2010 6:39 am

Feel free to get technical. I'd like to hear it.


Sure, but I warned you!

One of the biggest limits on the visuals in games right now are consoles. Just as much because excessive work needs to be put into the console versions in order to match modern expectations as the limit they place on art. Making ultra high resolution textures and then downscaling them doesn't look as good as making textures targeted for a specific lower resolution, so we'll automatically be stuck with whatever the consoles can handle in that area. Fortunately for meshes and polygon density making ultra high poly meshes and then reducing them is how it's done. Often the details lost from the reduction are used for the normal map. But with Direct X11 and the idea of displacement maps the original higher polygon meshes can be stored and reproduced without a lot of trouble, so we'll have that.

Another limiting art factor is the construction of the world itself. Variety in the textures used for a given place, how many models and their variety can be used at once, how many npc's will be onscreen at once. All will be limited by the console, they'll only be making one world. Which is why I've repeated that the visual target would be somewhere within the realm of nice looking open world console games. That being said there are things that can be done for the pc. Write once, apply everywhere. This would mostly be limited to shaders or "effects" as most people might term them.

As for basic technology that everything can use.

This is almost ever white paper (lots of math) from http://advances.realtimerendering.com/s2010/. The talk from Crytek (Crysis 2, etc.) on making sure deferred rendering works on consoles and better texture compression (meaningbetter looking textures without using more ram) is something the folks at Bethesda might appreciate. Essentially they lower the amount of color in a texture for better compression, then expand it back to it's original using a shader.

Of course http://www.crytek.com/cryengine/presentations page has all of Crytek's publication's. Their technique for 3d (stereo) could bring Skyrim to 3d both on consoles and the pc with relatively minimal cost. Essentially they're taking the single viewpoint you render normally (what you see), turning it to simulate what the other eye can see, and then filling in the blank spot that the first eye couldn't see.
That and their implementation of virtualized textures, while not up to what Carmack accomplished, could still help a lot. Essentially allowing only the parts of a texture you see to sit in the RAM, though only for terrain if memory serves. Normally the entire texture is stored in ram, even the parts you can't see (and is thus essentially wasted space.)

I'm also looking forward too GDC 2011 and http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/digitalfoundry-halo-reach-tech-interview review of how they managed dynamically take 3d models and turn them into impostors. Essentially taking an entire model and turning it into a 2d image (think of the leaves that turned with you in Oblivion). But since they're far away they don't turn that much and it's hard to notice.

And advanced, pc pc only effects:
The same guy that was in charge of making Red Dead Redemption look so stunning on consoles worked with a bunch of other people to come up with a way to display dozens, or hundreds, of point lights (think candles, fireballs, etc.) with soft shadows at once. A link to screenshots http://www.wolfgang-engel.info/blogs/?p=141 though of course Bethesda will have to shell out $60.00 or whatever it costs for GPU Pro 2. Still, just about every light in the game could have a shadow.

There was, at one point, a paper describing all the Direct X10 effects shown http://www.shacknews.com/onearticle.x/52320 but my googlefu seems unable to find it. Anyway, for rain they essentially point a camera at the ground to get a texture of what falling rain might "see". Then they project a shader that makes things look "wet" (making the texture darker and more reflective) onto that area. As for the shiny god rays, if I recall correctly they take the sun shadow map (a texture of what the sun can "see") and use Direct X10's geometry shader to dynamically create the same sort of godrays used in Fallout 3, shooting out from the sun.

Research is still not that advanced for Direct X10 or 11, as many triple A looking game companies still have their attention on consoles. But of course http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IfbT1aWjM64&feature=channel has done things simply to show off their new video cards.
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Franko AlVarado
 
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Post » Thu Mar 18, 2010 6:54 am

^ Interesting! Thanks for the knowledge dump :D
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Liv Staff
 
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Post » Wed Mar 17, 2010 9:58 pm

The graphics need to have a small increase in themselves. So it isnt TO intense. So then im not buying a 60$ skyrim PC DVD + a damn 1000$ computer to barely run the svcker!

well if you want to play the lastest games..logic would say you need the latest hardware/software

@tombofsoldier - please, tell me more. i need to hear this!
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NO suckers In Here
 
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Post » Thu Mar 18, 2010 8:30 am

well if you want to play the lastest games..logic would say you need the latest hardware/software


There is a min of two year span between development start and release and in most cases much longer than that. Given that fact, NO game will ever require the latest hardware to run. Even if it were possible to release a game that did require the latest hardware it would be financial suicide to do so.
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Helen Quill
 
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Post » Thu Mar 18, 2010 8:53 am

8 Graphics cards is not currently supported by anything anywhere. Also, We don't all have 4 Tesla cards running to calculate all of that grass, the leaves, and water. Also also, 24 processors? I know you said it won't happen but I think we should be slightly realistic.


I was being dramatic in the direction of the "never going to happen". Simply because I know the game will simply be a really pretty console game, but without much, if any, allowance for current pc hardware.

Which is fine I guess, but If i had a choice of any new game actually being truly something graphically "new", I would wish that my favorite game series did that.Since that's the thing I will be looking at most.
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Lyndsey Bird
 
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Post » Thu Mar 18, 2010 11:03 am

I was being dramatic in the direction of the "never going to happen". Simply because I know the game will simply be a really pretty console game, but without much, if any, allowance for current PC hardware.

Take a look at http://translate.google.de/translate?js=n&prev=_t&hl=de&ie=UTF-8&layout=1&eotf=1&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.pcgames.de%2Faid%2C706639%2FMetro-2033-PC-vs-Xbox-360-Teilweise-gravierende-optische-Unterschiede-festgestellt%2FPC%2F&sl=de&tl=en.
you really think that publishing a game on consoles (Eg. Crysis 2) bottleneck's the probable graphical potential of that game?

BOT->
I would love to see some basic things such as:
-body morphing using basic changes to the character skeleton (if that method is still used).
-real time dialogue || void dialogue added together, so that the world goes on when you are Talking to NPCs but stops when you script it, to remove the possible bugs.
-support for quad-core threading.
-support for dual GPUs in-game.
-support for more animations being played in one scene.
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Emily Graham
 
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Post » Thu Mar 18, 2010 1:58 am

My wishlist for this engine

Obviously less bugs and glitches then Gamebryo (Times this quote by 1 million)
I would love to see some form of Body Morphing as that would be pretty sick also better looking faces either more options when making the face or make it easier to use the sliders.
Better Graphics as when you look off the top of Throat in the Mountain it should be an amazing sight.
Enhanced AI for both NPC's and Enemies. I'll give an example you go into Sneak Mode in a store

"Get up now I know what your planning if you don't get up I'm calling the Guard".

"I'm just tying my shoes".

"Leather Boots don't have laces fetcher".

Different Eye Colors don't give me just Blue, Green, or Brown if somebody wants to have mako blue type eyes then they should be allowed to do that.
More unique Hair choices
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jenny goodwin
 
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Post » Thu Mar 18, 2010 10:18 am

so long as everything is very optimised i am fine, id also like a lot more mod freedom.


id be content with extreme optimisation and non buggyness- but since we are going into detail


i want the game to look better than crysis on a windows 3.0 machine :cookie:
if they can make it look decent on a piece of crap, then they can work wonders on something decent

but, since you probably want a little more detail, i want nice shaders and weather effects. i want more modability, better particle effects, cloth physics, if i ever get a dx11 graphics card then i want that too- that would make the game future proof if dx11 could make heightmaps out of models. i want nice water too, and cloth physics, and a good body morphing thing, i also want the lod system from hell http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EEqIFG2tO88


halo reach engine is fantastic, combine that with better physics and the open world capability that some games have any you have a pretty good thing. of course i want way too much, but you wanted too much
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sophie
 
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Post » Thu Mar 18, 2010 6:23 am

For the love of all that is...NO DAMN 2GB LIMIT.

Unless its been said before.
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Hilm Music
 
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Post » Thu Mar 18, 2010 2:10 am

Hope the graphics is as good as Assassins Creed, I love how many people are just walking around doing anything lmao XD
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mollypop
 
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Post » Thu Mar 18, 2010 1:17 am

Duuudes http://www.gamedev.net/community/forums/topic.asp?topic_id=591698 trick is totally awesome. It's not even worthy of a whitepaper, more of a "duh" kind of moment. Instead of having the cascade shadow maps projection going from the light source you place it behind the player's view frustrum and point it towards the light source and just change the depth test to greater than or equal to. This gives a much better scaling for resolution detail in terms of how close objects are. I still wish I had my rendermonkey install, maybe I'll go find it again.
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Anna Beattie
 
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Post » Wed Mar 17, 2010 11:06 pm

Quick question - I am an oblivion mod user like everyone else (nearly) and I always get frustrated when my complex yet well constructed fcom install insta-crashes-to-desktop when i reach 1.8-1.9-2.0gb of ram. The question is - does the 4gb/patch/patches (ntcore, etc) do anything at all. Besides saying "your file has been patched" because I really don't see the 2gb limit every being something the game goes over.

It always crashes at that mark, nomatter the amount of mods I have (for instance, i might just choose to get carried away with RAEVWD + better cities, etc). And when the magic number comes up, its simply a matter of time before i am instantly staring at my desktop, its not vram either. It's exactly how much memory oblivion has loaded. (I am using ati tray tools to monitor vram/ram/cpu etc)

x64 win7.
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Isabella X
 
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