Wow it feels great to be back to these forums.

Anyways, I was reading the "Mana and Scrolls" topic and decided to create this branching topic. If you want to discuss how that specific design should work, continue there. But here is where I want to invite people to express their total views on how the magic system should work in Skyrim. I'll start.

FIrst thing first, I feel like Oblivion is one of the first games to get Magic almost right. For once, playing as a pure caster was just as approachable as a pure fighter. So I commend that. Being able to instantly cast, the variety of stacking effects, and the magicka regeneration all contributed to that. I personally would like to keep this immediately approachable magic system in place, for the most part. Instant cast is great (no raising the arms). Hotkeying spells allowed for quick selection too. Stacking effects is the beauty in the magic system. I loved finding loopholes. It was during designing my own spells that I really felt like a Mage. The magicka regen though, i think, needs to be scaled by a bit. I like that it works off Willpower, but I think a better system would be bigger magicka bars. Something along the lines of chakra from Naruto where each character has a set amount that does come back over time, but not instantly.

I would like a success-failure rate back. And if you fail, I would like to see some effects. If I try to cast a fireball way to strong for me, I think it would be hilarious to have it blow up in your face. So a player can still risk trying to cast the spell and if they succeed it can be a great moment, especially if it saves your life.

I would like to see different animations. Everything is a step-up compared to morrowind with the animations but I would like to see more than just me sticking my arm out and seeing the same spell, just colored different for different effects. I look to Bioshock plasmids and DM for examples.

I would like the return of some of our beloved spells that were cut. Namely, slowfall. Sure, jump and levitation are nice, but nothing made me feel more like a bamf than jumping off a castle wall and slowfalling down to the ground

Self-enchantments and scroll-making would be a nice return. They add to the overall mage feel. If I am stuck in a dungeon and I'm low on magicka, I would like to be able to make a couple scrolls as back-ups.

I would like to see different approaches to studying the colleges. They all feel the same to me. I'm going to use the Arcane University for example. In a way, I wish it was more like a University. If you wanted to really get to understand the magic system, I think classes with teachers that taught tricks on how to stack spells would have been nice. I would like to see mages practicing destruction act different and do different studies than those practicing alteration. I think the atmosphere of the magic system needs work. And also, i would like to see necromancy separated from Conjuration. I think having its own skill that has to be learned (make it a minor skill in all cases) and having its own approach could really make my necromancer characters stand out. Having to perform certain rituals and commit certain acts to gain the abilities of necromancers. Even go so far as to go under the ritual to be a Lich (if you so wish) would be nice. These are the kinds of things I mean when they need to work on the atmosphere of being a mage. Give me a reason to sit down at a desk and make a scroll. And a nice touch would be seeing your characters hand write along the paper as you make the effects. I'm tired of menus that cover the whole screen. I'm all for menus (not a fan of Fable 3) but in the background have the action take place.

Anyways, thats all i got.

I like your ideas and would propose an aesthetics update to the magic system as well. A visual difference in casting a low-level fireball and a more advanced elemental combination spell would go a long way towards making the wizard class much more interesting.

I'd like to see the success or failure of casts back, too, though not tied to an RNG. Maybe something similar to the Gears of War reloading system, where once you start the process, you have to press the button again and hit a sweet spot on the meter. Letting the meter go all the way would result in a failed cast and hitting the button at the wrong time could result in a backfire. Of course, the more powerful the spell, the smaller the "sweet spot" on the casting meter. And of course, raising your skills would increase the size of this sweet spot.

The bad thing about this system is that it would probably get dull after a few hours.

I like the idea of studying with teachers to get better at magic or unlock new techniques. I feel like that would be awesome, especially if you were being instructed in necromancy or something.

For some greater changes to the magical system, we need to redefine the schools and what the attributes regulate.

Willpower should regulate your mana pool, Intelligence should regulate how quickly you learn the spells (reduced failure rate) and how well you can learn spells from observation. Intelligence spells should be mostly ritual based, and take awhile to cast. Willpower spells are the quick ones.

Willpower: Illusion, Enchanting, Dynamism, Destruction, Thaumaturgy

Intelligence: Mysticism, Daedric, Necromancy

Alchemy is also an intelligence skill, and I'd prefer potions to have different effects than spells. Daedric is the combination of conjuration and daedric from the previous games, and you should only be able to summon daedra with it. Dynamism spells are generally from the alteration skill, with all the "force" power spells included, like telekinesis. Thaumaturgy is the magic of the divines.

I really like all of your ideas

I would like some form of a charge time for spells. Like lets say you start the game and play a little bit. You get a fire spell that requires a level 5 in destruction to use BUT you can charge it past the level 5 strength if you charge it long enough but the stronger you force yourself to make it not only the more magika you use and the more chance you will have to fail the spell or have it backfire if you hold it too long. Now lets say your level 10 in destruction and want to cast that same spell, its initial strength will now be stronger due to your strength being higher and you can charge it higher but due to it being a level 5 spell you will start reaching the spells limits in strength and wont be able to charge it as long do to overcharging a weak spell and therefore you need to get a more powerful version to keep up with your general strength BUT those lesser spells can still be useful later on as quick casts to help word off enemies with a barage of attacks( or perhaps you could fuse weaker spells of simular type to create higher level versions.) Also to tell if a spell is getting too powerful for its level or your own and your risking a backfire there could be a means of looking at the charge animation and the energy could start looking unstable in some way. Tell me what you think?

I think one of the most important aspects of spells was lost with Oblivion, which was the fact that one could learn ANY spell type and attempt to use it, regardless of whether you actually had a chance in hell of it working. I enjoyed that aspect because sometimes you had "those" spells that were last ditch efforts. Sometimes they would work, and sometimes they'd fail terribly. It was up to the mage to determine when to use them and when not to. Having no spell failure both forces them to implement a ridiculous tier based system and also causes an odd two-sided system where they don't seem to want you to be able to make ridiculously overpowered spells, yet, due to having no failure chance, you can combine tons of effects to do just that!

A lot of people say they enjoyed Oblivion's magic system, yet the only thing I ever hear is that they liked it because it had no "ready-cast" implementation as in Morrowind. Well of course that's all fine and dandy, but spells themselves were totally gutted. The removal of travel oriented spells (jump, slowfall, levitation, mark & recall, various interventions, etc) along with the total GUTTING of mysticism (both for removing those mentioned spells and for moving drain spells to Restoration, for whatever reason), really ruined the magic experience for me.

Enchanting was also ruined for me due to the lack of the "cast on use" option. I guess they thought that staffs made up for that (they didn't). In addition, they put a cap on certain enchantments (such as chameleon) in an attempt to balance them, not that it matter since you could just stack multiple enchanted equipment for a similar effect. Mages suffered from the clothing system in Oblivion: Because robes counted as such a large portion of apparel, you missed out on some 3 pieces of enchanted equipment. Not to mention the loss of the ability to enchant things like paper/books and other such things.

Oh, and please have a delete button for spells Bethesda. That's just sad that you missed that. Todd even apologized for this one, yet I don't recall them ever patching it...


Yes, I've suggested the same thing many times for several years. I called it "Overcasting."

Here, I'll post the upgraded idea from Rhekarid's huge suggestion list:
Most normal spells can be overcast, done by holding down the cast button instead of tapping it. When overcasting, the spell is “charged,” rapidly building up additional energy before being released. This increases its parameters such as range and magnitude, but is done as a gamble. The caster cannot see the level of the held spell, and with the increase in power comes an increase in spell failure. Failing an overcast comes with a much higher chance of more dangerous, dramatic failure. Though the spell might fail on release, if held too long the spell will fail automatically, with even higher rates of backlash effects. The overcast increases the power of the spell by a percentage, meaning that more powerful spells are increased dramatically. Though for most mages overcasting is done infrequently as a desperate measure, for archmages who have the highest level of control, it can be the source of the most powerful of spells.

Yeah with the overcasting as you call it, it could allow some lower level magic users an attempt to pump out a super strong spell as a last defense

You know, I'll just post this whole snippet of one of my old posts while I'm at it:

Illusion isn't just about images; it's about perception. The reason things like blind, deafen, and paralyze are in the Illusion tree is that the tree affects one's PERCEPTION of the real world. The reason an enemy stops in his tracks when paralyzed isn't because he actually can't move, it's because he thinks he can't move. Illusion is magic that toys with the 5 senses of the target.

What should really be changed is that spells like Deafen, Blind, Light and Sound should all be changed to do what they actually mean. Sound would make a sound from where it was targeted at, causing a nearby baddie to hear a sound, and go investigate it. Blind would make the enemy obviously hard of sight, allowing one to sneak easier. If it's 100% blind, they can't see at all, and you could easily walk by them (so long as sounds are not being made). Light would create a bright light, allowing one to see, or causing an enemy to investigate. It could even force nocturnal or light-fearing creatures to flee, especially vampires. Deafen would make the enemy hard of hearing, allowing one the ability to sneak by or allow one to dispatch a nearby enemy without another hearing. One could even slow down conversations by having a person constantly having to repeat their words to the deafened individual. Silence should not just make an enemy not be able to cast spells, but render them mute, unable to call out commands or converse with others.

A skilled Illusionist would have the ability to combine 100% Blind, Deafen, and Silence for a devastating sensory lockout. One would become a deaf-blind-mute under such spells, allowing for skilled Illusionists free reign over them.

Even more abilities should be created. Mirror Image, the creation of a copy of the target. It would fight as an ally, and also allow for sinister trickery, like copying a high councilor, then walk with them to the council chambers, as the guards believe you are his guest. Other spells would allow one to disguise themselves as another person, or a generic creature or humanoid.

Perhaps there could be even more sinister abilities. Because Illusion deals with senses, the sense of touch could be explored. Pain, a spell causing the target to experience false damage (when this spell is used on a player, they experience it as the health bar lowering, but not actually going down underneath it all). Sickness, making the target queasy, could make someone sick enough to go home (using it on a shopkeeper, for example), or go lie down. A strong enough sickness would make them gag and throw up on the spot, allowing for one to use this precious moment to flee, attack, or sneak around.

It's about time Illusion stopped needing to be complimented by other skills. Mysticism has become the same way with the moving of Absorbs to Restoration, and Alteration has never been able to be used on it's own offensively.

Alteration certainly needs improvement as well, especially with the loss of Levitation. Because it deals with the Alteration of the physics of the real world, I think this would be a perfect skill to put abilities like a force field wall, or a force push. Spells like Burden should be able to target individual items, so that one could increase the weight of a combatants weapon to the point of it falling from their hands, too heavy to carry. A skillful use of Burden could be increasing the weight of a rock to ludicrous amounts, and then using Push to shoot it across the room, demolishing all within it's path.

Because Alteration deals with the forces of the world, mainly weights, inward, and outward forces, and it's plethora of gravity defying abilities, it should have the ability to modify gravity. Vortexes (similar to black holes), could be created, pulling all the objects and creatures in an area to that single point, and then exploding, pushing them out in all directions with deadly force. Swirling tornadoes of gravity could push across the battlefield, and when used in water, would create a devastating water vortex.

Because of this Alteration of the world's physics, it should have telekinesis moved to it.

So, at the basis of it, Alteration does not fight using traditional means of damage to the enemy. It fights using the environment, sending objects and people flying with deadly speed, or having the ability to carry an anvil as if it were a feather, and then drop it upon a foe as if it were a mountain.

A lot of good ideas here. I wasn't too fond of "overcasting" when I first read that post but after a few minutes I kind of like the idea but I think it should actually be a technique that has to be learned from Mages. I don't really like the idea of bandits wondering around being able to overcast and possibly get lucky every now and then. Just seems like something, to me, that should be a perked learned from a quest.

I like what Orzorn has to say about some of the magic abilities. In Oblivion I rarely used Mysticism and Alteration because they just weren't stand alone magic skills. Although, I must say, I find Illusion to already be quite helpful. But you do have some creative ideas there about how to improve them. And I want to add one to Mysticism...some form of precognition. I think it would be cool if you could cast the spell and the world stops for a brief moment and allows you to control a ghost version of yourself around to get a glimpse of what's around the corner. You can check for enemies, guards and their paths, traps, yada yada yada and when the time runs out, you return to your actual body and time resumes. Obviously, this is a powerful spell so it should only be taught to archmages or something.

I would be okay with something like a perk that one had to learn or something. Then again, bandits really shouldn't have magic at all anyways.


Interesting idea. It reminds me of what Oblivion did to overhaul the detect spells (which I loved, by the way. Oblivion really hit the nail on the head in this aspect). I could see a spell like that taking an average skill to learn, but a high skill to keep going for more than a few seconds. Basically, if you learned it at 50 (literally the middle of the road), then you could get the spell to last 4 or 5 seconds. A master could have it work for upwards of 20.

Actually, I did not like the Chance of Success that came from Arena, BUT would not object it (I assume it is tied to your level or better, School Proficiency...).

I just was about to start a poll about Magic Schools.

Whether we have six schools or less (I wouldnt mind), I think the system could include some other 'magic enhancing' skills that would (reword them if you please) e.g.:

Empower (damage / intensity),
Extend (duration / area),
Improve (makes more difficult for foes to resist effects with their willpower or magic resistance) and
Resist (improves resistance).

Something like this... School Proficiency would allow you to cast higher level spells and more cheaply (and with greater success, if applicable). Obviously this would mean that Willpower would grant you some modifier to resist spells (as in other games), while also recover mana (which was a nice touch in O).

I say 'reword' because the descriptions are from magic system from games like Never Winter Nights, so Beth would have to change somewhat.