I thought I would make a new thread about the new magic system since it seems many are confused about what has and has not been confirmed, as well as shed some light on the many threads addressing the magic creation system. Here are some of the older threads that have reached the post limit:

• http://www.gamesas.com/index.php?/topic/1163948-why-no-spell-making-is-a-good-thing/
  
• http://www.gamesas.com/index.php?/topic/1163969-bethesda-why-are-you-taking-the-tes-out-of-tes/ Note: Even though the OP in this topic has multiple game elements as the topic, if you read the thread most of it is about how people feel about the magic system. Not really much of a debate, but you may be interested.
  
  Some of the original discussion about the spell making went into these threads:
  
  
• http://www.gamesas.com/index.php?/topic/1163190-no-spell-making/
  
• http://www.gamesas.com/index.php?/topic/1163142-no-spell-customization/

And finally the thread that started much of the controversy is outlined in http://www.gamesas.com/index.php?/topic/1163115-skyrim-italian-coverage/ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Giochi_per_il_mio_computer Here is a http://bethblog.com/index.php/2011/01/17/dragons-preparing-to-deliver-skyrim-details-worldwide/ planned to be released. Also the follow up thread for http://www.gamesas.com/index.php?/topic/1163214-skyrim-italian-coverage-thread-2/ for reference.

To quote a few people from those threads who translated what was said:





An important quote from Twitter about what Pete Hines said while this magic hysteria was happening in the forums:




I'm glad with most of this information. But I would like everyone to keep in mind when asked about combining spells in the building better combat update Todd Howard said:*


*Italics denote a quoted post here. (I'm out of quotes)

And when asked about combining spells in the Dutch magazine he said:



Here is a reasonable post from someone who posted in an earlier thread about all of the information above this sentence:



*EDIT* Here is some new information about spell customization from the GI podcast. http://www.gameinformer.com/b/podcasts/archive/2011/02/03/toddhowardse.aspx, I recommend you listen to the podcast itself as well as this transcription to remove possibility of error (in interpretation and perhaps my own). I have transcribed most of what was said about magic (he starts talking about crafting and magic at 12:50 into the interview), if you do see any discrepancies feel free to point them out.


With this new Podcast it sounds as though there is probably evidence that the magic creation system from older TES games will not be included in its entirety. The evidence from this new podcast shows that, to quote Todd, "spell crafting is kind of a real wildcard." He also says that, "we have some ideas that we really like and how to solve that and I don't know where that's going to go."

You should take note that the spell creation system itself has not been confirmed as removed in its entirety. In the GI article it sounds as though they are still working things out Please when you are posting about the possibility that the new spell system may or may not include the same spell customization as previous TES titles keep in mind that Todd says, to quote him again, "We'd like to find, we have some ideas that we really like and how to solve [spell crafting] and I don't know where that's going to go." (Brackets are mine for context). He also says, "We do have a lot of crafting. So we do have crafting within each discipline now." And, "[Crafting is] all in the game now and its going to go through a few changes. I don't want to get too specific but there is a lot of that and more emphasis on it this time around."

There could possibly be good fruitage as a result of this feature being postponed, replaced or removed. As many have said in those threads it could very well promote a much more fluid and creative magic system.

In order to have a constructive thread about the new magic system here is what we know so far:

It will include these skills as confirmed through http://www.gamesas.com/index.php?/topic/1162905-skills-we-know-are-confirmed/.

• Enchanting
  Here is a quote from somebody on another forum as to what Enchanting was in Morrowind:
  It basically did two things. It let you make magic items yourself (so you didn't have to spend money, just a soul gem and the base item), and it determined how quickly your magic items recharged.
  
• Alteration
  
• Restoration
  
• Destruction
  
• Conjuration
  
• Illusion
  
• Alchemy
  This skill belongs to the stealth category now.

I would also like to point out specifically that Todd mentioned in the GI Podcast that there are currently about 280 perks, and they can be applied to specific categories of discipline like "fire spells", not just the entire school (destruction in this case). This is what they are focusing on instead of adding a "skill with a number".

Here is a link to the GI http://www.gameinformer.com/b/features/archive/2011/01/24/skyrim-building-better-combat.aspx?PostPageIndex=2 about the new spell system. I will also try to highlight some of the most interesting changes.




For those interested here is some game play from the Bioshock realm of spellcasting http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HXbaPOQmTkU and http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=feWQTRij1k0&feature=fvst (the videos are a little graphic fyi).



It sounds like they are going to focus on giving those with magical powers more depth in that you will feel like you are actually performing magic, instead of just pressing a button.



This has been taken literally by some. It is far more likely that this is referring to 85 different spell effects. In fact I believe there was a twitter from somebody at Bethesda about this very thing, perhaps someone can help me out with this



It certainly sounds like they are making spells themselves more versatile to me. Instead of having several "Fireball" spells that were different only in their damage or with some variant like an AOE or even more dubious the "touch" or "target" system, usually causing you to have separate versions of the same spell in incremental steps, it sounds as though now you will be a mage who is 'versed in fire' so to speak. A bit similar sounding to the Diablo 2 skill tree, where your mage would choose frost, lighting or fire and then continue to upgrade that element with different perks. Yes, perks will effects spells too! According to the new GI podcast Todd says that you can pick perks within Destruction to enhance your fire abilities! (This information also eludes to the idea that you can pick perks for every element! How exciting!) Also, he mentioned there are already 280 perks in the game if you include ranks, and you only pick 1 perk per level. Exciting stuff! (The GI article about the User Interface also eluded to the fact each magic school had its own perks because of the constellation that shows the perk tree in the picture. Can view the UI article http://www.gameinformer.com/games/the_elder_scrolls_v_skyrim/b/xbox360/archive/2011/01/28/skyrim-menu-system-overhaul.aspx.)



This sounds like it will add to the immersion of playing a Mage. As far as how magic should be portrayed in different fictional works is very much an opinion, but what the word magic actually implies isn't open to debate. Since that is the case, it will be nice to see the graphics complement the idea of being a "magical" person making "magic".



With this new tactile approach to magic the difference between your elemental spells will be more than merely aesthetic. This is another step forward with the new magic system indeed.



This is an important quote because many feel that since the article has touched specifically on allowing two of the same type of spells in each hand to create a more powerful version, and also says you can't combine spells to create new ones that you can't have two different spells. This quote ends that debate as it clearly states you can have an attacking spell and a warding spell in each of your hands. If it is really that true the old spell creation system has been transfigured in any way than this would certainly cover many of your concerns about spell creation.

As to how the new spell system could possibly be used I would like to discuss the most (Feel free to discuss anything from the new podcast and what is important to you however regarding the new information. Cheers!).

Here are a few videos of games or mods that change how spells act and are just for inspiration:

• http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F-Ght6YDytE A very interesting magic combination system that was a very interesting watch. Thanks to Chong Li for posting this.
  
  
• Early http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LL2sr7RXdEc. Some of his other ones: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2R4OoLmCTSA http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yymBkioFY3A http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ee1l5nGN_e0&feature=related http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y_qBysDmhQ0
  
• These fanmade videos might be more to the point with a little less drama: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KiUt8NqY-Co&feature=related http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fCrh4wxK490&feature=related

There are other videos I'm sure perhaps someone else can post some for inspiration.


If for some reason Bethesda later confirms that magic creation is somehow removed please keep this point in mind that I posted in another thread:

"I would like to point out that it is short sighted to believe that Todd or any of the other team members at Bethesda are against the idea of spell making. I would reckon they want it in the game as much as any of the fans. But they have constraints put upon them as designers. They are limited by both time and money available. They even said they want to implement a spell combination system, but may not have enough time to do it before release, so it is still up in the air.

Balancing a huge project like this can be difficult. They not only need to balance their resources but any smart developer will set aside resources for correcting errors. Time is spent to find unpredictable errors and problems. Remember when they needed to remove the AI system from Oblivion? Do you think that was planned? Of course not! They had already devoted a large (and who knows really how large) amount of time and resources just developing the system! Only to see it be taken out later in the project. I am sure it was disheartening to them as it was to any fan.

The spell creation system may really be too much of a gamble development project if they are really implementing a much deeper and richer magic system. They want to put it in as much as anyone, but right now they can't say "its in" without a doubt I would imagine.

Just my thoughts on the matter."

great thread, and you linked to mine, how flattering

however, I admit the way the article had written it, it could have meant there is no creation of spells through dual wielding them
great thread to read for all the facts, however

Damn this should be sticked , with all that work you put into . You do have a point , nothing is set in stone so for now I would like to tune out the annoying people .

Wow. Great post.
Very informative and heartening.
Thank you, sir.

Really nice thread, I trust that whatever ends up being put in Skyrim for spell making/combining will be great

Thanks for compiling all the info with links.

And, especially, thanks for reminding us about that bit about the wizard duels - I've been reading through all the spell customisation threads, and I don't think the implications of that info have been discussed nearly enough. Will need to think about that some more.

:thumbsup:

Yeah I tried not to allow my personal opinion on the matter influence how I presented the facts. In truth it can be interpreted both ways with the information we have since this writing, but it's certainly not set in stone.
I have never seen these forums sticky a user's thread before, and I am not responsible enough to actually upkeep a thread that is considered important



You're welcome! Hope it helped you.

Your welcome I find that I appreciate links in other forum threads so I thought I would make it easy.

About the wizard duels, that sounds really fascinating. It seems as though you will have to cast the ward sort of like raising a physical shield in real time battle, I am very interested to see the game play with this in it. I imagine Gandalf when http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5nyDYI-bO-8. He was engulfed in flames and then after they abated he wasn't singed at all. It would be neat to see wizard duels played out in that manner.

There is a quote from that Dutch magazine where Todd is talking about the Ice and Fire spells being together and how they couldn't work that out because fire remains on the ground for additional damage and ice slows the enemy down. I'm not really sure I get the logic in the post itself and it sounds like he is talking about spell combining to make a new spell altogether. My reasoning for this is, with all of the different battles in the game there is no way they could not account for situations where both a fire spell and a frost spell are cast on the same person or the same location. It doesn't make sense to think he is talking about not being able to at least have both a fire spell in one hand to cast on its own, and a frost in the other to cast on its own, but that is just my reasoning. What do you think?

Not to overstate the obvious, but why do people think that the magic system won't be one of the first things modded? Yes, it may take some time for the modders to do it, but rest assured, it will be done, just like in Oblivion. For that matter, I'm sure there will be mods to make Skyrim's magic system EXACTLY like Oblivions. Or any one of a countless number of other possibilities.

I think you are pretty much right, and having thought about it a bit more, I want to offer a new interpretation of the "can't combine spells".

What Todd was saying was that if you have a fire spell in one hand, and a frost spell in the other hand, you can not cast them simultaneously. However, you can still cast them one after the other, alternating fire spell then frost spell.

Why do I think this? Well, one thing we know about the new magic system is that if you put the same spell in both hands, you can use both hands at the same time to cast a more powerful version of the spell. I think what Todd was saying was that they hadn't found a good way of how this would work if you had different spells in each hand.

As to your other point about spell-effect stacking: yes, it does seem implausible that there'll be no situations in the game where an enemy or an NPC has only a single spell effect upon them. For instance, suppose you have a Burden spell in one hand and a Silence spell in the other? You cast Burden, then Silence. Won't the NPC then be both Burdened and Silenced? Of course, there are ways to prevent the spell-effects stacking, but none of them sound good.

So where does this leave spell-making? Well, you might say that if spell-effects can stack, then surely there's no technical obstacle to spell-making. But with the new way that you can customise a spell by the way you cast it, that might introduce a new obstacle to spell-making. For instance, what normally happens when you "charge" a fire spell is that you shoot a flamethrower. Now let's suppose that "charging" a Paralyse spell increases its duration - if you tap the cast key, the spell paralyses for five seconds, but if you "charge" then the spell paralyses for ten seconds. Now suppose you want to create a single spell which combines both fire and paralysis spell effects. What happens when you "charge" the spell? Does it charge both spell effects? Or does it charge only one? But which one?

I don't think these are decisive problems to designing a workable spell-making system. But, at present, I can't come up with any better ideas of what possible implementation difficulties there might be with spell-making. (There's always other design reasons for why spell-making might not be in, such as balance, but that's a different question).

This is an interesting new thought. I wouldn't be surprised if this is how spells are implemented in Skyrim on release.

About what you said about combining paralysis and fire, having some sort of paralysis for 10 seconds and then a flamethrower might sound like a good idea at first but what if you just want to paralyze someone? What if the spell itself is a projectile and "charging" the fire turns it into a flamethrower everytime? In practice I would begin to be annoyed at how I have a stream of flames coming out of me everytime I cast the charged version. It might not bother everyone but it would bother me. I would want more control over my magic. And in the lore of most fictional works, fantasy and sci fi (like Star Wars), control is part of the beauty of your power. Anakin wasn't that cool until he was trained. Having these predefined spells in a mashed combination would eventually annoy me as far as immersion goes.

Yes it's very clear, I had not seen this before so I assumed the Italian magazine was mistaken. Same way as no HUD outside combat is probably wrong, will svck to have to open the stats to see how much health you have outside combat and the map to see if you are going north or south.

So no spell making or combining, casting a spell with both hands increases it's power, perks also increase it's power, you probably have charging really hope so you don't have to use your combat grade heal spell to heal scratches or dragon scaled shock effect to kill a rat.

Sad, indeed sad, but again pure mages was unplayable in Morrowind to and it was still a great game.

No moding will not solve this, yes it will greatly increase the flexibility and add some hundreds options they left out here like health regeneration and water walking on touch is just two examples, but it will not fix the problem.
Perhaps somebody is able to mod the enchanting system into a spellmaker, however if they ditched spellmaking I'm scared to think how the enchanting will work, it was nerfed enough in Oblivion already.
If we are real lucky we might be able to use two effects on a weapon.

One note about enchanting in Morrowind, in adition to let you make your own enchantments (this required serious fortified enchant or intelligence) and increased recharging it:
Reduced charge then using a cast on hit or use magical item, increaced the recharging from soul gems.

Is there any way you could expound on that? Do you speak Italian? More references might be a good thing.



I'm not sure I understand completely (I didn't really use enchant when I played Morrowind), having higher enchant 'reduced charge when using a cast on hit or use magical item' means that if say you had a sword with 100 charge and your enchant was at 0, when you hit someone it would take 10 charge away, but if you enchant was say 50 it would take 5 charge? Is that what you mean? Also I don't fully understand 'increased the recharging from soul gems'.

Well, if you just want to paralyse an enemy, then you can just use your spell which had only the paralyse spell effect.

As for how the spell which consists of both fire damage and paralyse spell effects behaves when you "charge" it - I agree that there are some issues here to be worked. One possibility I've mentioned elsewhere is that when you create a spell with multiple spell-effects you can designate one of the effects as the primary spell effect. Then, that primary spell effect, and only that primary spell effect, is altered when you charge the spell. The other spell effects are just fixed to whatever you set them as when you created the spell, and can't be changed by charging the spell.

So just to give a concrete example: suppose you create the fire damage + paralyse spell. Suppose you select fire damage as the primary spell effect. With this spell, when you tap the cast key, you get fireball + paralyse for 5 seconds; when you charge the spell, you get flamethrower + paralyse for 5 seconds. But now suppose that you select paralyse as the primary spell effect. With this spell, when you tap the cast key, you get fireball + paralyse for 5 seconds; when you charge the spell, you get fireball + paralyse for 10 seconds.

This is an awesome source of information, thanks alot!

Touche


I like this idea of primary and secondary effect. It might be complex, but it seems that magic by nature isn't going to be an easy 'idea' to simplify. I think that the force in Star Wars has a good system, where there is this base idea about power of control and then everything else you can do stems from that power of control whether it be lightening or mind tricks. I think that TES might be missing that foundational idea and just sort of goes off in each direction.

It would be nice to see something like what you mentioned though, primary and secondary effects (maybe even tertiary?). Honestly the video I posted on the game Magicka had a really cool combination system in place. I'm sure that some people at Bethesda would weep if Todd said we must develop this system for Skyrim magic but the finished product could potentially be really cool.


You're welcome!

Excellent post. I've watched the entire "no spellmaking" in Skyrim start from an obscure quote from a translated magazine turn into a fact by "TES Ragers" in a short amount of time. I am definately a critic of Bethesda (mostly due to OB) I still believe they are the top developer in the world when it comes to creating an immersive experience. The rage/rant combo usually doesn't work very well and generally makes everyone stop listening to the viewpoint trying to be made. that is my two cents. Just remember it could be worse.... look what happened to Bioware.......

Hey, thanks for taking the time to make this thread really, this should quiet fears and douse the multiplying threads regarding the matter. any future threads I will link them to this :celebration: :goodjob: .

Since they are overhauling the Magic system and adding environmental effects such as lightning stunning and draining magicka or fire continuing to burn heres a potential list I think with regards to current spell effects. made it a few hours ago on another thread just using the Oblivion and Morrowind spell effects archives. its more like a detailed possiblility ect ect.

School of AlterationBurden: Increases the weight of an object or all objects on an opponent. can be used to increase your standing power or keep an object out of an opponents use, failiure results in a higher than normal burdening possibly culminating in crushing of user or casted object, or lack there of.

Feather: Decreases the weight of an object or all objects on an oponent, can be used on self to lighten weight and move faster or jump higher in difficult situations, failiure results in unstable field, unwarrented deactivation

Fire Shield: Evokes a Field/Sphere of FIRE around the user, effective at staving off localized frost hazards and attacks. can increase dmg done by fire attacks both incoming and out going, as well as potentially killing the user in hostile environments where heat/fire is in excess. can be nulled by Dispel if its higher then the casted shield, failiure results in burning

Frost Shield: Evokes a field/Sphere of ICE around the user, effective at staunching off Fire based attacks, Can increase dmg done by Frost based attacks both incoming and outgoing, can kill or dmg the user if used for too long in frost hazards IE Blizzards. can be nulled by Dispel if it is higher than the casted shield, Failiure results in frost damage or possiblity of temporary freezing

Open: magically opens a locked container or door. lower levels can unlock doors not sealed by magical means, Higher levels require dispel or great profieciency in open when used with telekinesis, doors can be opened at a distance, allowing the user to gain ground from a pursuer

Lock: magically Seals an open door or Container, when used with Telekinesis doors can be locked at a distance giving the user some repreve from an extensive chase or lock their hapless victim from continuing to flee, it is different from physical lock in that the seal is reinforced by magicka and takes more than a key to open, however without local enchantment or certain perks, the magicka reinforcement will run out, leaving the lock level to remain. note a lock spell cannot increase the level of lock already on a door.

Shield: Creates a Magical Shield that universally protects the user, however it is impermable and does not allow for magical attacks in or out the field, can be nulled by Dispel, little protection from environmental hazards. failiure results in an unstable field, allowing objects/attacks to penetrate the field. perks are availible to extend the natural caste time of this spell as well as add push back force to heavy blows incured on the shield

Shock Shield: Creates a Sphere of Magical Electricity, able to damage opponents coming to close to the user, Shock based attacks are doubled going out but do not penetrate the field, does not protect against environmental hazards /fire/frost. failiure results in an unstable field lashing out an anything in its reach and potentially damaging the user

Water Breathing: allows the user to utilize Magical breath sustaining the user under area's low or devoide of Oxygen, can resist air/inhilation based poisons, failiure invokes astral vapors disease

Water Walking : allows the user to walk on water, lower levels restrict the user to *walking* higherlevels give greater stabilization to allow running and even sprinting or extended combat over water. failiure results in a lost of effect.

School of Conjuration often this school of magick requires both hands be free for spell casting

Bound Armor and weapons: ability to pioritize a set of weapons/ Armor for instant equip and use during combat for mages that cannot use armor effectively. the Bound Objects are specialized for the mage to allow maximum magicka usage and mobility despite that armors type, is vulnerable to dispel and disintegrate but are more resistant. the armor can be fortified with additional magicka, Failiure results in dispersion of the armor, greater levels of Bound weapons allows the user to summon unorthodox weapons and armors from the Deadric planes with the required teachings/perks.

Summon Ancestor Guardian: a Purely Dunmeri Ability, a Dunmer is able to call upon its ancestors for aid, Ancestor ghosts can aid in battle, provide council, possess enemies or buff the users with its blessings, the Ancestors are giving strenght through offerings and reverence made at local Temple shrines. failiure results in summoning the wrong Ancestor, potentially from another family, or no ancestors at all. Higherlevels can evoke 2 more ancestors to aid the user.

Summon Animal - Spiderlings, Bears, Wolves etc etc: depending on type of summoning a Prexisting animal from a nearby location can be called to aid the user, otherwise a magical summoning is brought fourth which is more vulnerable to magick disrupting attacks, preexisting animals leave after their service has expired, and only familiars stick around to continue aid. various animals have different abilites and are helpful in a variety of ways. failiure results in the summoning turning on you and or phasing out of existence in terms of magical based summonings

Summon lesser Deadra: understood as low caste Deadra, these include deadra of what mortals believe as limited intelligence deadra, Daedroths, Clanfears, Scamps etc etc, these Daedra are bound to the user when summoned, many are aware of the situation and will do as told, however unexperienced casters have found how smart these individuals can become, and bringing fourth to many can have dire consqeuncess if you don not posses the required skills/knowlegde.

Summon Dremora: summoning Dremoras is a risky business, and often are possible through prexisting pacts with a particular Dremora or common summoning speech used to bring one forth, while lower tier Soldier Dremora are common but no less risky to call fourth, Dremora Lords are a whole other animal and are best done by highly skilled practitioners with a clear goal of what they want the Dremora lord to do, otherwise the Lord will show little hesitance to strike at anything in range if left at its own devices.

Summon Atronach: Atronach's are similar to Dremoras in the risks involed when summoning them, they are often silent, and obidient, which makes them fairly deadly as they are not as predictable as the Dremora Counterparts, each Antronach form has a different cognitive type. as with all Daedra a modicum of caution a preparedness is essential for survival.

Summon Undead: encompassing ghosts, wraiths, skeletons, zombies, Summoning Undead can be done on the fly with a weaker magically summoned varient, or one from a disturbed area were souls roam, by using summon undead and culminate of apporpriate assemblance of bones and weapons, flesh and cloth, or a spirit will come to your aid, Failiure of such results in either a dude casting, or another opponent to clash blades with. (or run from)

Turn Undead: Lesser instances of this spell effect will send undead creatures fleeing from your sight, greater instances burning them and banishing them from their corporeal forms. failiure results in..failiure and a mad spirit.


School of Destruction

Damage Attribute/Health/Magicak/Stamina: this is a purely magical effects handy-capping its related target, where its applying unseen damage to a targets health, breaking their Magicka, or Stamina a target without the appropriate defense will find themselves falling really fast, Single caste Damage spells take a significant amount of Magicka use and more often harm other effects in addition to their intended targets but to a lesser degree, while temporary damage takes less, and is well...temporary. is extroadinarily useful with other destruction based attacks or those used in succession with debuffing spells. this effect is not pleasent for the victim and is not harmless like absorb.

Disintegrate Armor/Weapons / Area: does as it says, this Spell degrades armor, weapons, barrier doors, anything inanimate is subject to this spell effect, when used in conjuction with out destruction spells, that particuler effect is enhance, and can chip away defences vulnerable to its type, like a disintegrating fireball on a barrier, however because of its purely magickal nature residual effects like frost, burn and frost only last the duration of the entire spell, failiure results in a wild cast or destruction of personal equipment. resisted naturally by enchanted weapons/armor.

Absorb(Restoration)/Drain: works similar to Damage, but the damage is done overtime consistently, Drain is not instance, and in its use the users magicka pool is reduced, however the effects can easily turn the tide of battle and are useful for items to gain a charge, store it , and apply to yourself on an enchanted object. failiure results in a dud caste, or polarized Drain/Absorb. this effect is also harmful unlike absorb.

Fire Damage: Produces the Magical elemental version of Fire, as potent and just as dangerous, magical fire remains as long as its duration/power of the spell, with some naturally heat produced flares remaining behind, Fire damage can be focused into a stream, a volitile ball, or an explosive bolt. touch based fire damage can be utilized in strikes or grabs, burning the area of choice and potentially instantly killing depending on the area. failiure results in a dud caste or fire damage.

Frost Damage: similar to Fire Damage can freeze on contact, used on the ground can create a slippery area for opponents, will naturally evaporate after its duration is over.

Shock Damage: ditto can be used on bodies of water for an even greater effect on enemies occupying that area.

Weakness to: reduces resistances


School of Illusion

Calm: the user whipes the mind of his/her attacker and evokes a sense of disinterest, the effect is increased when utilized with chameleon or invisibility literally forcing the target to forget you were their long enough for you to disappear., greater levels are required for high INT individuals or excessively aggressive animals. Failiure results in a dud spell. higher levels can extend the effect beyond the victim, sudddenly becoming disinterested in their current tasks, Zoning out, laxness, or even sleep when combined with Drain fatigue and Drain Stamina

Chameleon: makes the user into a shilouette(sp) of sorts, you are still able to do actions such as attack and pick items up, but such will allow your opponents to focus on you more, the greater distance between you and a target, the less chameleon you require to sustain, opponents with abilities like Detect life or being hit by marking attacks such as spider webs, or projectile vomit will paint you out despite the Chamelon. some animals have a greater degree of senses and can locate you. failiure results in partial chamelon casts or dud cast.

Charm: Charm Hijacks your targets mental processes and luls them into having a greater degree of being persuaded, Animals are drawn to protect you and people are placed into a sense of ease around you, high INT can negate this effect and animals with higher senses /smell/sight etc etc can shake themselves out of the effect. Higher levels of Charm can have undeterminal effects on the victim, including near insanity, incoherent babbling, etc etc.

Command : the greater cousin of Calm, Command Hijacks the victims cognita and forces them into service for you, some higher INT opponents may be well aware that they are under your controll unwillingly and will generally try to resist, too strong of a Command can completely stupify its intended victim leaving you with a useless husk, like Charm, permanent Casted Commands take more magicka and are prone to resistance while durations are cheaper and gradual, allowing for greater control.

Demoralize: Scaring your opponents bowles clean, this spell effect evokes an irrational sense of fear or hesitation in your oppoents, where lesser creatures require little Magicka for use, Greater opponents like Dremora are nearly impossible to scare witless, Demoralize may not always work as intended as some animals and people as well will flail against their fears, putting a overly confident user into a bind. the effect is increased when used on Weapons, armor or even another individual. failiures include dud casting or simply pissing off the intended victim even further.

Frenzy: Invoking an overwhelming sense of rage into your opponent, this is an excellent alternative to taunting, due to some opponents being resitant to taunting and some animals (they don't know you are taunting them) it can be used to force an enemy to expend more energy, and lose focus making them slip up, make mistakes, or not notices things (like the Fire trap I just layed on the floor) animals also lose touch and focus with their senses allowing you to sidestep them and evade them easily, or plain just tire them out and put them out of their misery, like most spells, Duration, touch and or short range spells take less magicka than do range spells, making spell such as a light fire damage spell and a frenzy can cause nearby enemies to lose moral at seeing a flaming raging beast of a man/animal. failiure includes a dud spell or in a perfect world, your character getting pissed and going on a killing spree out of your control(jk)

Invisibility: this spell effect phases out the user, they are still tangible but not obeservable in the physical world the effect persists so long as no extensive action is taken interacting with objects outside the players field will disrupt the spell, although undead/ghosts/spirits can still see the user, most other enemies not using spells like detect life cannot see the player but can hear them, unlike chameleon invisibility's optimal range is all whether close or far, but factors like projectile markers (vomit/spit/webs) can signal out the player, animals with heightend senses can also detect where the players general area is, but cannot focus on them, ranged attacks also generally miss. like other spells Invisibility can be used on objects to conceal them from thieves, or their seekers, but because of the magical endowment can be detected by Detect enchanted objects spell. failiure includes dud casting

Light: Illuminates the area via light Orb or object that the spell is applied to (rings, swords, Shields, clothing) the spell persists under duration or as long as magicka is feed into it from the enchanted item or player, Light can be intensified to stave off light sensitive creatures/abominations, it can also be combined like other spells into forms like fire damage combined with light gives Solar burst, an intense daylight effect useful for keeping vampires at bay(those sensitive to light anyway), you cannot sneak while illuminated unless you cancel the spell or pocket/drain your items with Drain Magicka.

Blind: Obscures the Vision of the victim, often causes a slight demoralization for eye reliant enemies, has no effect on *blind* targets such as blind moths or those with high perception, negates the use of vision enhancing effects like night eye , detect life, detect magicka. when used with Light, it literally becomes blinding light, obscuring the foes vision in the appropriate intensity of the spell, enemies afflicted lose all focus on the player and will generally flail about, those with higher INT, Levels or well trained will at times calm down to better improve their chances of striking the player, sound plays a huge role at this point and taunting oh throwing objects can sway the enemy, to prevent the enemies recolection its best use in conjuction with frenzy or demoralize. spell failiure includes Cast Dud.

Night-Eye: a spell effect used to mimick Khajiit's natural ability to navigate the darkness with little trouble, such requires a steady flow of magicka or releveant enchanted items equipped, it comes in intensities from low light illuminations to complete near daylight like hues, however the spell effect Light as well as other light sources can disorient the user or anyone using night eye. failiure results in *blind* spell effect.

Paralyze: this spell/effect can range from making movement extremely difficult (coupled with burden) to nigh impossible applicable by poisons, Inhilation, injection. this effect as a myriad of transmissions, it can reduce the effectiveness of a combatant in battle, inhibite mages from hand castes, and make them vulnerable to attack, combined with Frost, it could indefinently entomb and kill an opponent, or burn them alive for the more sadistic practitioners. failiure includes dud caste of paralyzation on self.

Rally: The opposite of Demoralize, Rally can invoke an overwhelming sense of bravado and courage into its target, at higher levels such can become near zealous or suicidal Higher INT *enemies* may notice something is wrong but they are compelled to carry out their fearlessness onto the duration of the spell unless they are able to resist and shrug off the spell, when used with Charm or command they are more susceptible to Rally, Rally does not substitute for a true leader however, who is able to invoke true bravery and zeal, but the spell is an excellent alternative to those with low speechcraft and charisma. one thoughtful way to employ this spell is to caste it on a sword, with an area effect and caste on activation not hit (or you'll be making your enemies more willing to kill you) then brandish your sword in a rally call and the effect will boost their moral. failures include dud casting

Silence: Does exactly what it says, it prevents vocal castings and doubles the lenght of time it takes for castes that require vocal and movement casting, it also prevents foes from calling for help or rallying others to their position, if they die during the silence caste, they will generally make no sound depending on the intensity for some opponents this can reduce moral in combat. casting silence on an NPC will not enable them to talk, where it would be a decent show of superiorirty to your percieved lessers, casting it on an citizen is generally a crime and not well recieved. Failiure includes back fire silence, one inventive way to utilize silence is in combination with paralysis leaving the individual fully aware but helpless as you pifler their store, blind is also useful aslong as they did not observe you prior, thus forgoing having your image posted all over town.

Sound: apart of the casting inhibiting spells, Sound creates a thought scattering noise on the victim, disabling thought evoked spells (spells casted by recalling them or remembering them) much of the enemies or players spell repetoire is disabled for the spells duration, and combined with the other spells of its kind can be quite potent, in addition sound combined with a fire ball can have a demoralizing effect on lesser creatures and enemies. spell failiue includes self infliction of sound, and *shell shock* type of effect.

School of Mysticism I know its gone

Detect Life : Allows the user to see living things through solid objects. whether they are cloaked by darkness or Magic, so long as they have life, they will glow. failiure includes spell dud caste.

Dispel: depending on the casters proficiency, this spell can severely weaken or utterly abolish any Magicka based spell present on an object, from falling shields, wiping away buffs, and Enchanted weapons (effective when used with Drain can completely remove the enchantments) Dispel is essentially voiding Magicka from an object or area. failiures include spell dud caste.

Absorbtion/Reflect Damage/Spells are inherent in magicka Shield, certain birthsigns and combination of certain perks as well.

Soul Trap: makes the smallest applicable soulgem active for the target in question as to which it will encase that living targets soul upon death. spell failiure includes spell dud caste or soul escaping based on its strenght

Telekinesis: you to pick up an item or individual from a distance based on strenght of the spell. from there you can bring them to you and send them flying at another target, higher levels allow for multiple/heavier objects to be utilized as either shields or projectile weapons, even as buidling blocks to access other areas. spell failiures include dud cast, uncontrolled telekinetic throws, application on self and afformentioned Throws, or wild cast.


School of Restoration

Absorb: from Magicka to health, attributes and skills Absorb allows to user to gain strenght from other individuals/Objects for a temporary boost, the effect is not harmful and is somewhat symbiotic like drain, where the victim / source ceases so are the gains, like drain spell effect failiures include polarization of the stream, this spell is useful for absorbing magical items or friendlies with strenght to spare.

Cure Disease/Poison/Paralysis: this spell effect reduces or removes the effects of their appropriate relations, Reduced spell effects are able to comback in intensity for low cost duration cures while removing them completely or reducing them completely takes more Magicka, Failiures include dud spell cast.

Fortify: Like Absorb, Foritfy gives a substantial boost to the user whereever the deem relevant, the spell is dependent on the amount of Magica availible to the cast, because both temporary and permenant fortify are based from magick, their effects can be nulled by dispel and or damage/drain magicka.

Resist: resist nullifies detrimental effects pertaining to their caste type (shock, fire, frost,etc etc) as with all the other spell effects in Restoration it can be permenant or duration and can be nulled by Dispel, spell failiures include spell dud.

Restore: Returns attributes/health/Stamina back to normal, if used while under duress from a drain/damage effect the spell will be continous natively until the opposing effect cease, duration ends, or magicka supply runs out. spell failiures include spell dud.

What a great thread,well written and layed out.
I appreciate the effort.
Seeing it layed out like that,makes you think more about the system,more positive,than negative.
Well done

@ MK- { OMEGAX }.
I also enjoyed your post,some great ideas there. :thumbsup:
This has been a great thread to read. It's cheered me up

Also...in the bio-shock vid's, plasma ( magic-skyrim ) has a sense of great power.
You never felt that in oblivion or morrowind ( effects wise ).
To me visual effect is important,especially whan playing a mage/wizard etc.
You want to see the fire or lightning charge in your hands ,with powerfull sound effects.
Thats where you get the sense of great power in my opinion.
In oblivion you had a bare hand then a ball of fire come out,not the same really is it?
I know tod is a fan of bio-shock,this bodes well for magic users
I play assassin/ranger types most of the time,sometimes paladin types.I would love to try mages again.
If magic and effects are anything like that bio video or better,i will be tempted to try a mage once again

Am I the only one who considers that Oblivion way of casting spells is better?

I mean, if I "equip" a spell, Do I have to carry it in my hand?

I'm divided. I think the system will be more streamlined and robust, but streamlined is the opposite of what I want. Fooling around with different combos and effects made the mage feel more scholarly. You were actually doing spell research and coming up with something new.


My issue with TES in general isn't that I think it'll be a bad game, just that it won't feel like a TES game. It's getting too action/adventure for my tastes. But, hopefully someone will mod in spellmaking of some sort.

No spell making is defenately a good idea. First of all spellmaking will only serve to unify the magic schools, making the magic repetive and boring. Second, it would complicate the magic, making it harder to see more outstanding and unique spells. Last, you will have to learn from others how to cast spells and not learn them by yourself, which is a good thing - obviously, just think.

Strongly disagree on that point. I play pure mages. I like feeling like my spells are a product of my own research and not just learned and the local trainer.

I all for this new system, if it allows different kind of spells than the previous ball + effect stuff. Some thinking out of the ball stuff.

Like flamethrower, shockwave all around you (maybe as ''the ground option'' of the telekenesis), minor mindcontrol (holding down the button to first mark a target and then pointing where it walks, or something), a spell that freezes something solid, gravity manipulation and all kinds of stuff that I can't make up.

Of course I would like to make my own spells too, but it seems that this time we will only have one spell for each effect, and that spell will get stronger with you. So, maybe there won't be any real need to have spell making, as it seemed to be in the last games just to make magic useful and to avoid getting stucked with that level one Flare.

And I agree with Davii that currently it seems to be less scholarly, this magic in Skyrim I mean. But now I can make my brutal Nord Mage with no understanding of arts of spellmaking. It didn't make much sense when I needed just to do a bigger fireball, I had to go and stuff my gold to some magical candlestand.

Really spells are from research not that you bought them from a person that sells spells, at any point if spells are sold they should only be from scrolls, where then if you are not associated with the Mages guild (now Synod and Whispers) then you memorize and incorporate that spell, rather than buying it from some store. and of course you can be *taught* the a spell or rather spell *effects* from other trainers, but ultimate what spells you have are what you concentrated and formed yourself. i made a post about this somewhere ill edit it into this one.

I envisioned a spell making system were it was ACTIVE.

The Player would muster a large portion of their Magicka and a concentrate it into a specific kind of Speff effect, the amount of magicka Mustered would be diminishing so a kind of trail and error or you'll have to know exactly what kind of spell you want to make before you make it apporach would be needed. you couldn't do it on the fly, a form of contcentration of focus would be needed to even start the process, meditating or being at rest and utilizing the magicka.

so during the task you control

Concentration: whether or not its densely packed / and if that affects a wide or limited area

Sustained or not - deciding whether or not its a flame thrower or a fire ball, an arc of lightning or a sustained flurry

Frequency would control whether the effects lasts after the intial caste, such as setting things on fire, or effecting a persons mind after using a very powerful charm spell.

the more adept you are at spell making / being a mage the more effects you can utilize while making a spell and the less likely you are to backfire during the process
, spell effects are taught by their respective guild schools (each Chapter in Oblivion speciallized in a school) or by Books/Scrolls.

You would be able to make spells beyond your scope, but it would be difficult and taxing to your character in making it and casting that spell. certain spells depending on how you made them would be difficult for you to caste at first, but with more use you become more proficient at using your spells.

You could still be taught spells from other mages or learn from scrolls bought at varios stores ment for the ease of individuals not proficient in Magick.

I like what they have done with the Magic in Skyrim. If we lose custom spells then that's a small price to pay for more complex spells.