So I looked this up in the forum search bar and I didn't find anything similar to this so apologies if this has already been said and I just didn't see it but, I was playing Oblivion and trying to level up my Illusion a few levels to become a master. I know that part of the reason Beth took out the spell creation was so that we couldn't use what I was doing right there, an easy way to level up. But then I thought, "Wait, if we don't have spell creation, then how will we be able to do more damage with spells?" And then it hit me that the spells are level dependent just like damage done with a sword is level dependent on your strength and whatnot. This is just a theory so I could be horribly wrong but I just wanted to throw my idea out there. And again apologies if this has been said already

I see this thread with no replies so I guess I'll throw you a bone here.

Are you asking if skill level will determine how powerful spells are? Like Fireball at level 50 is stronger than Fireball at level 10?

Im not sure if Im understanding correctly.

I don't understand why they'd take it out, making my own spells felt "right". No harm in making a Rally+healing spell to create pumped up regenerating comrades?

Well thank you, now I don't feel like a complete loser :tongue: And yes that is exactly what I'm saying, like a fireball's damage would be based off of your overall level and your destruction level. Unless of course we just buy the spells with pre-made damages at the local mages guild or whatever they have in Skyrim, but IMO that would bring back the spreadsheet feel of magic by giving us preset damages.

Would be cool if spell making was covered by enchant... so depending on your enchant skill and perks you can make more powerful and efficient spells.


I'm starting to think that it might be, because I cant imagine what kind of perks enchant would have.

You'd put rally on one hand and healing on the other..

I believe the last word we have about spellcrafting is that they were still trying to work out on how to fit it into Skyrim in a way they were happy with. In the IGN interview a couple of weeks back Todd completely ignored the question on whether or not spellcrafting made it in. Hopefully this means it's still up in the air.

Just realized that because of how we were told fire spells would work, it probably means we can now use one healing spell to have the same effects as a self one and a touch one, hopefully.

Whoa whoa whoa...Who said anything about not having spell creation? It's still up in the air, and as long as nobody whines about how unfair it is that mages can create an uber pwnage spell, there's a good chance that they can fit it in.

this thread isnt about if spell creation is in or not..its about the OP's idea in how bethesda is creating the magic system.. his theory is that spells will get stronger as you level up just like OB was with swords.. a glass sword at level 10 did like 13 damage.. at level 40 it did like 28 damage..those numbers are probably wrong but you get the point.. and with that being said..I'm not sure how i feel about that there are a lot of pros and cons there.it could be great or an awful idea.

On a side note i think i'm the only one that wouldn't mind if spell creation was gone

Well spell leveling and chargeable spells can work here, to create Dynamic Magic System
http://www.gamesas.com/index.php?showtopic=1172799&view=findpost&p=17305802
http://www.gamesas.com/index.php?showtopic=1172799&view=findpost&p=17309686
http://www.gamesas.com/index.php?showtopic=1172799&view=findpost&p=17310647

I didn't like the spell-making system in Oblivion. For one, it made all spells feel really mechanical and number-based, and not actually magically. And for another, it was easy to make low-level spells to level-up really fast, and then make EXTREMELY overpowered spells later - such as 100% chameleon.

Question - Ignoring the potential lower-bound loopholes such as making and repeatedly casting low-level trainer spells, how can high-level spells be considered overpowered? If I've put in the energy to be 100 in a magic skill, then I should be able to do some pretty overpowered things.

There always comes this argument about whether your character should be able to become overpowered or not, but in my opinion a game should always be challenging - even at your character's strongest you shouldn't be able to cast one spell easily and then be able to just run through every quest or it wipe out an entire town unless maybe it has some super-awesome animation, long cast time, etc. - all of which 100% chameleon didn't. Chameleon 100% was just something you could use to get through quests without any work whatsoever.

Ive never heard one person say this until Todd said spell making was too 'spreadsheety'.

Magic should be number based, complicated, take trial and error, etc. You have to work at it and in spell creation you actually were doing that in real time. Studying and doing all the cliched wizard stuff you can think of, was replaced by the Alter, as a representation. RPGs are all about something representing something else. Maybe Todd didnt even think of that? Either way, I want it more involved. Two hand simulcasting doesnt compare to the unlimited potential of spell making.

I think I remember him (Todd) saying something like that, but I agree and since I discovered the alter I've always felt like that - I hate sliders and such in games. Like F:NV's hardcoe mode, it never felt at all hardcoe because you could see numbers on the bar, it should have not been visible and for the effects of dehydration just to turn up to let you know you needed water. The alter was also never complicated and didn't involve trial-and-error, it was basically "higher numbers = stronger spell". It never had unlimited potential either, all you did was combined spells that you already had and tweaked the strengths - you never created actual "new" spells. I like the system proposed in the original post where spells level up as you do as it feels the least mechanical way of doing things, and allows spells to be kept unique (i.e. there not being 5 different versions of the same spell in your repository with slightly different strengths to each other).

It would have felt more natural to have more variation to the spell making system. The system in Oblivion was just too cookie-cutter for me. It was too easy to realize how it worked. Magic is supposed to be a mysterious and unstable sort of thing.

If they are going to have some kind of simplified system of button tapping and charging:
I would like it as you charge up the spell, it shows a light drainage overlay for how much the spell would cost.
Charge up one hand slower than with two, maybe a speed, minimum and maximum charge time per hand based on skill.
Minimum and maximum damage would be a rating of shortest to longest charge duration. Maximum charge duration should also be included.
I remember reading a post about tapping the button to make it a different kind of spell.

On the other hand, I think professional warriors and mages should be able to wipe out mundane creatures with no magic resistance easily. Resistances should not use any percentage system, only a point system with a soft cap limit. Percentages mess everything up so that a low level with rare items can become immune to any amount of damage. Instead, they should be immune to x-amount of points and if a little guy faces a powerful mage, it should be burned to a crisp.

I agree that spell creation would be a good addition. Magic is basically the science of TES, even though it does cooler stuff (debatably).

Depends entirely on how its balanced, along with how it integrates with things like the magic-regeneration rate and what-not. If 100% chameleon was something I could legitimately use every 5 to 10 minutes for, say, 10 to 30 seconds, I don't see what the problem would be.
And frankly, if they adjust things to where its more effort to get to 100 than what's been present in previous games, I still see no problem. I hypothetically invested my work in getting that skill up to par and getting my magicka pool ready enough to do what I wanted it to. Perhaps the spells I get as a result shouldn't be press-key-to-win spells, but they should still have extreme utility.

If that's the case, I wouldn't mind so much because they would no longer be overpowered.In Oblivion you could easily make it so that your magika pool replenishes much before the spell times out, allowing for constant invisibility. I don't mind you being able to reach a powerful spell as long it can only be used extremely sparingly (I don't mean imposing a limit like with Greater Powers) as you suggested - although I would still prefer it be able to be done without a magic creation system, the spell could be leveled up in different ways (effect time, power, etc.) depending on how you apply points to it, possibly.

Hate the levelling with you idea, I want an over-powered fire spell, that uses loads of magicka, for Ice wraiths and giants I've inadvertantly annoyed, and a weaker, low cost spell, for taking out baby spiders or lone and foolish bandits. No way I want all my magicka depleted to kill a rat, effectively punishing me for improving my destruction skill.

Ah yes, I just realized that may be a problem - perhaps spells leveling with you isn't such a good idea, unless there's a system to allow you to use it at a lesser stage such as the charging-up system suggested earlier in the thread.

You definitely did make new spells, not just tweak the same stuff. You obviously didnt even get into spell making extensively.

If I remember correctly, you had to have a similar spell in your repository already to be able to use it at the alter (e.g. you had to have at least one feather spell to use the feather effect in any way at the alter) - all you could do with it then is mix it with other spells, change the power/effect time, AoE, and target.

Could you please provide some examples?

Heart Attack spell