My current character has at the moment a sneak skill of 75 and i use these mods:



Now 3C Class Advantages.esp [Version 1.01] gives the player 3 advantages when you choose a standard OB class, and it allows you to choose 3 advantages if you make a custom class. My player is a custom class with Magic as specialization and sneak as one of the major skills. As such i could choose Automagic cloak at the beginning of the game. Automagic cloak does the following;



Now could it be that the combination of an Expert level sneak skill and the automagic cloak nullifies the sound and light penalties from your mod? last night i could sneak up to a Dark Guardian(A skeleton type from WAC i think.) and stand right smack in front of it in sneak mode and it could not detect me even though there was a fire pretty close. Even jumping did not alert it. I tried the same thing with one of the guards in Bruma, he was standing next to the gate with a fire nearby as well and he also did not detect my player? The mod does seem to work because when i start the game and open the console i can see that SDR is initialized, and the sneak damages for melee and ranged attacks are applied as described in the SDR ini.

Maybe this is all as it should be, but it felt a bit weird to me so i thought i should mention it here.

Hey, just stopped by to see how this was doing. It looks really cool, very nice work!

Well, it certainly does seem odd, but it may be possible for you to be that sneaky, but it could also be that I haven't quite got my formulas perfected yet. If you don't mind doing a bit of grunt work, some additional details could help.

I am assuming you are using all of the default settings in the ini and that you are playing in hardcoe mode.

On my side, I've verified the following:
- Chameleon only impacts sight penalties as long as your total Chameleon value is < 100
- Chameleon acts as a multiplier on all the current sight penalties using the following formula: dSightBonus * (1 - ((player.getAV chameleon)/100))
{note: I call it dSightBonus because it is a bonus applied to the detector's sneak skill}

That means that if you have a Chameleon of rating of 25, your actual sight penalties would be 75% of what they would be normally.
A Chameleon rating of 50, would be 50%.
A Chameleon rating of 90, would drop your sight penalties to 10% of their original value.
A Chameleon rating of 100+ automatically functions like Invisibility, and prevents you from being detected, regardless of sound/sight penalties. This is an Oblivion.exe thing, and there is nothing I can do about it without writing a custom plug-in. It checks that first before proceeding with the rest of the detection model.

With a Sneak Skill of 75, if you are only wearing Cloth, you won't be completely silent, but you might as well be, as it will be fairly negligible at that point. What kind of gear are you wearing? If you are wearing any Armors, I would also like to know what your Mastery level is in those armors, as well as the Armorer skill.

The SDR mod adds the sight and sound penalties together, and then applies them as an offset to the NPCs Sneak Skill, which is then further modified by the distance. At close range (six feet or under), NPCs get a bonus, and then another at 41/2 feet away. These bonuses are currently applied after Chameleon is factored in (although I am tempted to switch the formula around in that regard). So the NPC should have gotten an extra 40/80 temp bonus to Sneak skill depending on how in their face you got.


There are a couple of things that you can do to help determine if this is playing out the way it is supposed to, or determine if something else is going on.
1. Enter console mode, and type in the following:
tdt
(then click on the target you want to check against, and then type)
tds
(exit the console)

This will turn on the detection reporter. You will see a whole bunch of stats:
Name of detector
Sneak value of detector
Sneak value of player
Line of Sight (1 if yes you are in their LOS, 0 if no)
Distance between (128 units equals six feet)
Blindness value on detector (should be 0 in most cases)
Light level on player (if in close proximity, the light level on the detector will be very close to that if not the same)
Invisibility level of player (this is your Chameleon value)
Boot weight of player (ignore this if in SDR hardcoe mode)
The next several bits display what you are doing (moving, sneaking, running, etc.)
Finally at the end is the detection level of the detector to your character.

- If they are not on alert, and the detection level value is below 0, they won't see you.
- The sneak value of an NPC cannot be adjusted below 0 or above 100 (nothing I can do about that)

In the console mode, click on the detector, and then type:
getBaseAV sneak
getAV sneak
- this will return the detector's base sneak value as well as their modified sneak value. Unless there are other factors playing in from other mods, the difference between the two is how much SDR is modifying their ability to detect you.

One thing to look for is your invisibility level. I looked at the mod, and from what I could tell, your invisibility value should be 25. If it isn't, then either the class mod is probably doing something that it shouldn't or there are some additional spell effects in play. My mod does not change or add to the Chameleon effect, so any number you see there is not SDR.

I'm working on the manual at the moment, which will have greater details on how everything is formulated. I will also include a "debug" option in the next release of the .esp. The debug option will allow you to turn on or off various print to console options via settings in the ini. That way you will get real time feed back of what the mod is doing when tdt is active.

If you could provide me with the stats described above, it will be very helpful. It wouldn't surprise me if my formula needs tweaking, and the feedback could help pinpoint where the issues are if there are any.

saebel

Thanks! So far so good. The tokens and scripts seem to be functioning quite nicely. :thumbsup:

I'm thinking I may need to change the formula for sight detection a bit. I'm waiting on more feed back before I make any changes.

Working on the insanely detailed manual, :read: as well as a new version that will include debug options for real time tdt console feedback of the mod in action.

Response to the concept in general has been very positive, which is always nice to hear. :biggrin:

Yeah i left all settings as they where, so hardcoe should be active.



I guess the Skeleton and the guard where blind then.



My char only wears clothing from this mod http://www.tesnexus.com/downloads/file.php?id=27902

It is enchanted clothing:

*Deerskin gloves: Shield 6% on self - Fortify Blade and Marksman 10 points - Fortify Security 15 points
*Deerskin leggings: Shield 12% on self - Fortify Illusion 10 points
*Deerskin mocassins: Shield 6% on self - Fortify Sneak 10 points - Fortify Speed 15 points
*Deerskin Tunic: Shield 12% on self - Fortify Sneak 10 points

And darn it, now that you asked what my char is wearing and me having to type it here i see that due to the enchantments my chars sneak is 75+20 from enchantments...making it 95. This is the culprit then, stupid me. :banghead: If the fortify sneak on the clothing is the culprit, then i will take those out with the CS. It would not be fun if my char can not be detected at all any more. The chameleon effect lessens the chance of discovery already so i do not need the Fortify sneak then.


Or does your mod keep fortifications out of it's calculations?

EDIT: I just did the detection reporter check on two guards in Skingrad. And the fortify sneak on the clothes was removed before i did this, so i can not explain why my chars sneak value shows as 94?

http://i176.photobucket.com/albums/w172/Illius_photos/Mod%20Problems/Guard01.jpg
http://i176.photobucket.com/albums/w172/Illius_photos/Mod%20Problems/Guard02.jpg

So guard image #2 was actually the same stats for guard image #1 (notice LOS was 0, and distance over 2000). When switching between targets, you have to do a "tds" to turn off the current target, click on the next target, and type "tds" again.

My mod does not ignore fortifications.
Depending on how the clothes were built in the other mod, it's possible that they might be fortifying you even if you aren't wearing them. You will have to ask the modder who made it about that.

On the bright side, your issue forced me to take another look at what I've got, and I found some glaring errors. :ahhh: I've patched them up and reworked the formulas so that the results should be more in line with what is expected. :grad: I want to add some debugging options first, but I hope to have a new version up in a couple of hours.

Whoops sorry. :blush:



Alright i will.



Great...the new version i mean.

New beta version 1.01b is now available: http://www.tesnexus.com/downloads/file.php?id=37385

Nice looking PDF :icecream:
Will read it after I gotten some sleep. Play the mod? Haven't a working Oblivion install nor the time; but I'll read the PDF anyway - I'm kinda backwards that I read the manual but don't use the mod

Thanks for making this!
I'll have a closer look at it at some time.

Cheers!

Thanks saebel, will install the new version.

I installed the mod and I'll give it a go later alongside Attack and Hide.. I gotta paper to write lol

I've been looking for something that made Oblivion play more like a real stealth game, where line of sight and lighting had a noticeable effect. Once you max out sneak you basically become a ghost.

Question to those of you who are either using or considering using this mod:

I was thinking about adding an option (that can be turned on/off in the ini). The option would make it impossible to have a Chameleon of 100% or more, forcing it to 99% regardless of how many items/spells you throw at it.

The reasoning is as follows: Philosophically, Chameleon should only limit someone's ability to see you, not hear you. This is normally the case. However, if you have a Chameleon level of 100+, you are completely undetectable in any way shape or form. By forcing a limitation of 99 max, it would allow the other detection penalties for sound/movement to come into play. This sort of feature is tricky, and I'm not sure whether or not it will jack anything up, but I'm willing to investigate it if you folks think it's a worthy idea.

Tangent:
P.S. I've solved one of the issues about auto-move. The next release will allow auto-move outside of sneaking. I've already got it running smoothly in my development version.

I would not mind such an option with forcing chameleon to be set to 99 max. Even at that level you will be a ghost so being able to be detected through sound/movement seems very fair to me.

JRoush's http://tesnexus.com/downloads/file.php?id=34841 is a more elegant solution to the chameleon problem.

It certainly is. And since he is the one who figured out the original detection formula in the first place, it would probably work very well with what I'm doing. I'll chat with him about it. I might apply the settings for sneak detection, blindness, and chameleon.

Thanks for mentioning it.

So how will this work along side having two companions? If the dark area is small and can only truly accomodate the player, the companions will not be as hidden. So the observer can see them but not the player and there goes the surprise.

I guess to answer my question, that would be the reality, that the whole group can't sneak with you, as there is no way for them to wait and follow a path when you have cleared out of it.

To have the companions be completly ignored by the observer would break any realism of sneaking.

Any thoughts on this?

Just dropped in to say I really like what is developing here and am looking forward to the polished result. :goodjob:

Yeah, it is tricky. But due to the limitations of the game, there is a side effect to what happens with companions.

To get an understanding of the challenge, in order for the hard core settings to work, I had to nullify the Sight and Sound portions of the detection formula, and artificially boost the detector's sneak skill to compensate. So technically it ends up boiling down to a Sneak skill vs. Sneak skill contest, with a few minor adjustments (if the player attacked the detector for example). Ideally, I'd rather be able to replace the entire detection formula, but I have neither the skill nor the time, so this is the best I can do for now.

In general, this seems to work fine, but there are a couple of side effects when you throw companions and followers into the mix.
1. There are two tokens in the mod, one for the player, and one for everyone else.
2. That means that companions and followers get an unnaturally boosted sneak skill if they are near you and have LOS of you.
3. Because the Sound factor in the detection formula is nullified, your companions basically will be considered to be making no noise.
4. BUT, the light falling on the detector (and therefore companion) is taken into account, so if they are in bright light, their sneak skill will be adjusted downward if you are in a darker spot.

The result? Depends on if you are sneaking up from behind or within line of sight.
If you are sneaking up on someone from behind, enemy detectors will probably have a better chance to detect you, rather than your companions, because you are the only one making noise.
If you are sneaking up from the front, enemy detectors will most likely spot you if any of you are in bright light, even with the extra bonus sneak skill taken into account. Which make a lot of sense anyway. There is much better chance of spotting at least one person in a group than if it is just a solo person.

Mind you, this is all just a theory on how it would go down, it will be interesting to see what happens in actual game play.

At the moment, my long range plan is to focus on getting the balance right between the individual player and the detector for version 1 series. Then I will look at more options in the version 2 series to take into account companions and followers.

But I've already started to map out some ideas on what would be needed to accomplish this:
1. Some method of determining whether or now someone is "following you" (I've found a couple of references, but nothing really solid)
2. Creating or modifying the detector token to take that fact into account. If they are following you, then a couple of things would happen:
- The whole process of adjusting their sneak like a normal detector is bypassed so that their sneak skill is not naturally raised up due to their proximity to you.
- Their gear/weight movement is calculated similarly to the player's, and their sneak value is adjusted down. Lighting adjustments would also have to be taken into account as those are overridden as well.
This may unnaturally increase their sneak skill progression, but since the player is the main focus, that might be an acceptable sacrifice for the added realism of trying to sneak in groups.

I've only recently started playing with companion mods, so I'm certainly open to any ideas or feedback you or anyone else has on the subject, as eventually I do want to support them.

Some http://cs.elderscrolls.com/constwiki/index.php/GetNumFollowers might be required to take companions into account.

Were you planning on having potential enemies evaluate their chances for detecting each member of the party? Or, just adjusting detection chances upwards for each follower with the player?

Thanks for the reply. Everything you write makes sense and you have a very clear and precise vision, which I think serve you well in developing this mod. As for companions, it is very unrealistic when the whole gang can sneak around, as the problems produced by a group whould be similar to problems produced by direct light, LOS, and noise factors.

Having thought about this further, in the spirit I take your mod in, I would say having companions sneak should penalize you considerably. Imagine one person remaing hidden in the shadows as a guard passes by, much less 2 or 3 (all huddled in a group that the guard would have to bump regardless). Also, when you try to get from one spot to another before someone looks in your direction, you have to take into account that the 3rd person in line will get there a few seconds later, thus exposing the whole group. Furthermore, one person moving silently is one thing, 3 will produce some distrubances by the accumulated result of air movement, 3 times the muffled sound, 3 times the chance of tripping or making a noise from the equipment they carry. So in all, it is not just about being hidden in shadows, there is the mass occupied by 2-3 bodies that is a factor.

Anyway, I do not envy you finding the solution to this, if any can be found. I think ultimately, companions are not players and therefore in difficult sneak situations, either are left behind or your sneak ability is halved for 1 companion, reduced 75% for 2 companions, and impossible for 3 or more.

My thoughts on this.

I agree with this. Sneaking should largely be a solitary activity to be really effective.

The more folks you have in your party, the more chances other folks have of detecting them.

Groups move stealthily too.... of course, they need to be trained to be able to do so.....

Ah ha! That's one of the functions that I will need. Thanks for the link. There are so many OBSE commands to go through, sometimes it takes awhile to find the right ones.

Those are some definitely good ideas. The real question is just because someone notices one of your followers, does that mean they should notice you? One of my favorite tactics was to sneak around, cast a summon spell, and send a critter in to attack my enemy. This then becomes an AI issue. Are they smart enough to realize that someone is nearby and summoning creatures? Maybe. But does that mean they will search for and/or find them? Maybe, maybe not.

Same could apply to followers. If a follower is spotted, the focus would be on the follower. Now if they see the follower as a threat, then I would imagine they would approach or attack the follower. That would put the enemy in close proximity to you (presumably), which means their odds of detecting you would go up. But imagine this scenario:
It's you and a companion. The companion is in bright light, but you aren't. A guard sees only your companion and attacks, but as the guard charges in, he doesn't spot you, and his position puts his back to you while he attacks your companion. Wham! You backstab him.

I've been in roleplaying game scenarios where my [censored] companions got spotted and I didn't. Sometimes that would lead the enemy to finding me, sometimes not, depending on the situation.

Perhaps there is a bonus to the enemy to spot you to some extent that could be offset by the sneak value of your companions:
Something like
10 pts per companion, - companion's sneak skill mastery x2 (if companion is sneaking), multiplied by the number of companions.

Examples:
1 companion, Novice Sneak: 8 points to be detected.

2 companions, Novice Sneak each: 16 points, x2 = 32 points to be detected.

3 companions, 1 novice (8 points), 1 apprentice ( 6 points), 1 expert (2points) : 16 pts x 3 = 48 pt bonus.

If everyone is a master sneaker, then there would be no penalties.

Also, I would throw in the gear / sound penalties into the calculations that would offset the companions sneak skill, and thus mastery level at the time.

The bonus would be applied to all detectors' sneak skills. So as the group gets larger, the easier it will be to detect anyone in the group, with the concept being that the group is only going to be as effective as it's weakest member and size of the party. But it may not necessarily mean that they will notice you specifically. It will depend on the circumstances. Odds are, unless you are really well set up (chameleon, dark spot, etc.) they will most likely spot you once they close the distance to one of your companions.

You can't shove 5 people into a corner. Unless they are all acrobats standing on each other's shoulders. But that's another mod.

I can say with a reasonable degree of certainty that this mod and Attack and Hide don't play well together. When I had both active, I experienced constant crashes (every 15-20 minutes); when I disabled A&H, I could play for over an hour at a time. Does SDR cover the same thing as A&H? I noticed that if I can run far enough away and hide, sometimes I can escape my pursuer's notice. It was one thing I liked about A&H, but that mod made it too easy.

Another thing I noted: If I attack something at range while sneaking, some of the creatures nearby will notice me and attack, but others won't. For example: I was in Plundered Mine, at the top of a short tunnel leading down to a room with a half-dozen goblins. I shot one, and it and three others nearby noticed me and came to attack. The other two, which were out of my sight (I was using detect life and nighteye) were apparently blind and deaf, since they completely ignored their friends. When I moved down to the room and shot one, both of them attacked. This could be because the cave was pitch black and they were out of sight... I dunno.

Other than that, SDR works pretty well. I'm using Advanced with slightly tweaked settings (I increased the detection range a bit) and FCOM. Since I can only get off one or two shots before they come running, poisons become more useful - with A&H, I could shoot once, then immediately disappear; lather, rinse, repeat until the target's dead, and they never get close, nor do I have to bother with poisons to soften them up.