http://www.gamesas.com/index.php?/topic/1194753-relz-sdr-sneaking-detection-recalibrated-2/

When posting bug reports, questions, etc., please include which versions of SDR, OBSE and AV Uncapper you are using.
http://www.tesnexus.com/downloads/file.php?id=37385
http://planetelderscrolls.gamespy.com/View.php?view=OblivionMods.Detail&id=6608
http://tesalliance.org/forums/index.php?/files/file/893-sdr-sneaking-detection-recalibrated/
Brief description below. Latest version news follows description.
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Sneaking Detection Recalibrated (SDR)
This mod completely rewrites how sneaking/detection works. Complete details are on the main file site (see link above). A brief list of the main features are as follows:
- Takes into account the light falling on the detector as well as the player
- The player's sneak skill is not modified in any way
- All penalties / bonuses are calculated separately for each detector-player relationship
- hardcoe settings override all the default oblivion Sneak Mastery perks, and are replaced with new rules and adjustments.
- Having a lit torch will cancel out any current or cast invisibility spell effects on the player.
- Silence spells cast on the player will nullify sound penalties
- As your Sneak mastery level increases, the speed at which you sneak gets faster
- Extended sneak attack bonuses up through Master Sneak.
- Everything you have equipped impacts your sound penalties, not just boots.
- Equipped gear takes into account, clothing, light armor, heavy armor, and weapon (if drawn).
- Equipped gear penalties apply to player and NPCs.
- Skillup bonuses for sneak attacks using bows if not detected (courtesy Haarvest and Sky Captain)
- These and more features covered in the readme .txt and a .pdf manual (part of the download package)
- Only one .esp, one .ini, OBSE v19+ and AV Uncapper plugin required.

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Current Version: v2.00, 2011/05/25
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Feedback, suggestions and bug reports are very welcome.

Ohh - will be watching this and try it out once OBSE 20 is out of beta.

Because I have two mods that OBSE 20 does not play well with.

I have downloaded this and will be testing it as soon as I can get my Fcom Install Running as i'd like it

Thanks for the work and Look forward to playing this

I have created an OBSE 19b compatible version. (only one line of code needed OBSE 20, and it was just to suppress a sound)

Both archives are available here, you only need one:
http://www.tesnexus.com/downloads/file.php?id=37385#fileanchor

Thanks - been slowly refining a new load order - may be a while before I can actually play.

Sounds pretty good...will this finally bring us a sneak experience like in the thief series :drool: ?

Hmm. Not being familiar with the series, probably not. But if you describe the other kinds of experience you are referring to and how you imagine it would work, I could look into it.

The only adjustment to sneak experience in this mod was co-opted (with permission) from Haarvest and SkyCaptain. If you are in sneak mode, and you use a bow, hit a target for a sneak attack, and remain undetected, you will gain some experience for the shot.

Right now in default vanilla, you gain .75 experience for each second you are sneaking undetected with NPCs/Critters nearby. You also get a sneak bonus of 2.00 experience points if you successfully pickpocket someone without being detected. More details of how this work are here: http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Oblivion:Sneak

hmmm....for example ...imagine a big castle with guards patroling everywhere and you have to make your way to the vault or a private quarter (or whatever) to steal some documents or assassin somebody :toughninja: ...
if this castle has enough dark corners, doorways etc you should be able to manage this without being spotted...in other words... if a guard looks the other way or has moved around a corner I should be able to reach the next dark spot... when the guard returns he should not detect you even when he passes just a few feet away from your position...of course as long I am standing in the dark and do not move ....mabye as well depending on your sneak skills and other factors...
if this would will this way it could perfectly combined with mods like thieves arsenal...using water arrows and stuff..wohoo this really makes me excited :celebration:
also mods like near miss magic and shots aleart the target or fresh kills now aleart the npc will probably work fine with yours...

cheers

If you have a very high Sneak skill, what you described might be possible. You can also tweak the settings in the ini to get the results you want. Here are some features of the SDR mod that apply to what you are describing:

1. Lighting conditions.
- In vanilla oblivion, only the lighting on the player was taken into account.
- The hardcoe settings of this mod also factors in the lighting on the detector. If you are in a very dark spot, and not moving at all, and the detector is in a very bright spot, it will be very difficult for them to see you if they have a low Sneak skill. If the lighting level on both of you is about the same, it is fairly level, but the closer they get to you, the better chance they have of seeing you, multiplied by how much light is hitting the player.

2. Line of Sight (LOS)
There is also an option for bumps within close range. If the detector has line of sight, and gets within 6 feet, there is a bump. And another bump when they get within 4 1/2 feet. I ran some play tests in the training sewers, picking an area that had different levels of light close to each other, and picked a zone where I knew a rat would pass by and I would be in its LOS. In one test, I found a shadowy spot, and stayed motionless. The rat turned the corner and walked passed me. Same area, same light on me, still not moving, but several paces away and in the direct path of travel of the rat, and it spotted me. Rats have a pretty crappy sneak (8), so a more alert guard might have noticed me. But then in the test scenario, my character's sneak was about 15.

3. Penalties for any kind of movement.
Another thing to note is that I had the "make sound when turning" option on. It's about half the penalties of walking, but in close quarters with a target it makes a difference. In both scenarios above, when I turned and was within LOS, the rat spotted me. If I waited for the rat to pass by, I was able to turn. I could then sneak up behind it.

4. What you wear is very important.
Wearing a couple of pieces of heavy rusted iron armor (cuirass and greaves), was just barely doable when sneaking up from behind, but the moment I started to run while sneaking, the rat heard me and turned on me. In vanilla oblivion, I could be wearing a full suit of steel, and no shoes, and the rat would not have heard a thing. This mod penalizes you for everything that you wear, including regular clothing (although the penalties for regular clothing are fairly minimal).

5. Several skills make a difference.
My penalties for wearing heavy armor are offset by my Sneak skill mastery, as well as Heavy Armor mastery and Armorer mastery. The idea being is Sneaking is, well, sneaking. Heavy Armor is how well you move in it. And Armorer is a more esoteric addition, with the assumption that you use the skill to make minor modifications to the armor (padding, oiling, etc.) to make it quieter.
If you have 100 mastery in Sneak, Heavy Armor, and Armorer, you drop heavy armor penalties to 40%
If you have 100 mastery in Sneak, Light Armor, and Armorer, you drop light armor penalties to 20%
If you have 100 mastery in Sneak, clothing penalties are nullified.

I really dig the Thieves Arsenal, and had it in mind when I created this mod. Although I haven't tested them together, when I looked at the inner workings of TA, I didn't notice any code that would conflict. TA is quest/item based, and doesn't seem to modify any of the actual detection rules from what I could tell.

The SDR ini file has some built in descriptions of all the different features, effects, and recommendations. I am also working on .pdf manual that goes into greater detail on how the whole mod works. I may include these examples. I hope this helps to answer some of your questions. And let me know if you have more.

This sounds really good. I'll ask the moderators to add a "[WIPz/BETA]" tag to this to draw more attention to this thread. You can ask the mods to change it (by clicking the "Report" button below the post) to "[RELz]" once it is formally released.

Question: Any incompatibilities with other mods? Like SM Combat Hide etc.?

thx very much for your detailed answer..I will create a test level for myself and check it out :foodndrink:




seems to me as "sm combat hide" and some other mods like duke patricks " near miss magic and shots aleart the target" and "fresh kill aleart npc's" will work very well with this mod...

cheers

Thanks for asking the moderators to add the tag. This my first mod, so I'm still new to the lingo.

The readme has a list of related stealth mods that are compatible as far as I know, as well as a list of those that aren't. I looked at the guts of SM Combat Hide, and I didn't see anything that looked like it would conflict. In fact it looks like it would blend in quite nicely. I'll add it to my list of most likely compatible mods. (until someone proves otherwise)

The SDR mod only deals with everything leading up to the detection event, and does not affect AI packages, routines, or thresholds. I knew there were a lot of other mods that changed those values for a lot of reasons and wanted to avoid conflicts.

My mod does temporarily increase the Sneak skill of the NPC, and once they detect you, it's pretty high. But the mod recalculates every frame, so if you get move out of their LOS, their detection range, and get them to stop pursuing you, their sneak values *should* return to normal. The few tests I've run seem to imply that.

Thanks for sharing your mod. The only issue I have is that even with the obse19b archive from tesnexus, your mod gets disabled ingame because of missing obse20.

DOH!! So much for the quick fix.

I'll fix it right now.

(smacks forehead)

Edit: I have uploaded a new OBSE 19b version that now correctly checks for v19, and not v20. Sorry about that. I was in such a rush to deliver the v19 version, I completely forgot about the v20 checker. :facepalm: Total newb mistake. I'll be more careful next time.

http://www.tesnexus.com/downloads/file.php?id=37385#fileanchor

P.S. I am still working on an in-depth manual, but it's taking longer than I thought (my schedule got hectic), however the readme and the ini should be enough to answer most of your basic questions.

Note that you can easily create one version that supports both. Just check for OBSE version. If version 20 you call the new v20 functions, if not, you call the old functions.

E.g. :

if obse20   call new_funcelse  call old_funcendif

I do similar (though mostly to check whether OBSE plugins are installed in order to use their functions), in my mods.

Btw, the mod looks very interesting, and I plan to include it in my setup when (if) I get around to play and not only mod Oblivion

nice tip! I'll make sure to include that in the next version. Wasn't really looking forward to maintaining two versions.

Although i am pretty sure already i would like to ask here any way.

I use two esp's from the mod http://www.tesnexus.com/downloads/file.php?id=2902 and one of them does this:



I get the feeling this will confilct with SDR, am i correct in thinking this? And will the extended sneak attack bonuses from SDR do the same? The second esp i use from MB only handles Arrow recovery...gravitation and firerate so that one should be fine.

did you check out Phitt's sneak penalties? it seem like it would do pretty much the same thing as this one

Do you mean PPP?(Phitt's Phighting Fixes.) If so then yeah i know it and use it but if you mean another mod of Phitt then no.

Still i would like to try this one out and i would like to know whether SDR conflicts with the esp Mighty_Bows_Sneak_DMG_Bonus_Alt.

this looks excellent! i hope you'll make something like this when skyrim comes.

Yes, SDR does the same, and more. There are actually four different "tracks" of sneak attack multipliers, one of which allows you to set your own values, or you can turn it off. So you have enough flexibility that you will be able to use both mods together. The options are described in the ini.

Load order is important, so if you like SDRs settings, make sure to load it after Mighty Bows. In fact, I recommend loading SDR after everything except maybe Deadly Reflex.

The only other archery related feature is optional, and can be turned on/off in the settings, which allows you to gain some Sneak xp for successfully hitting a target at a distance while sneaking if you remain undetected. It's a mod created by Haarvest/Sky Captain that they allowed me to merge into mine.

Thanks for the info saebel, then to be safe i will remove the MB esp that changes the sneak damage and keep the one that alters recovery, Fire rate and Gravity. Then i will install SDR after it.

Phitt's sneak penalties was one of my inspirations (and I gave creds accordingly), but conceptually there were certain aspects of his mod that I didn't agree with, plus there were a number of other changes to sneaking and detection that I had in mind to do that Phitt's doesn't take into account. However, there is a lot of crossover, and they absolutely conflict, so I do not recommend using both of them together. You'll have to pick one.

The main problem I ran into with Phitt's mod and all the other stealth mods along these lines, is that the player's Sneak ability is modified depending on what the player is doing. Although on the surface this makes sense, there are significant drawbacks to that design.

1. It may very well mess up my leveling path, and thus conflict with other mods.
2. It may allow me to unnaturally increase the rate at which I learn to sneak much faster.
3. If there are multiple detectors, regardless of their distance, they all get bonuses to see the player as the nearest NPC gets closer.

Example: I'm in a dungeon. There is a rat that is 20 feet away, and a goblin 60 feet away. Approx. 1/3 of the ability to be detected is based on the difference between the Sneak skill of the detector and the player. So with the other stealth mods, as the rat comes closer, my Sneak drops, thus improving the chance of the Goblin to see me, even if he is not moving in my direction. :banghead:


SDR takes the exact opposite approach, all penalties against the player are actually applied as temporary bonuses to Sneak for the detector, so each detector-player relationship is tracked and calculated separately. This completely avoids the problems listed above. :rock:

There are a bunch of other factors SDR takes into account that none of the other mods do. Check out the read me and the ini. Although I'll warn you, there is a lot going on in this mod, so you will have to wade through a bit of text.

I am using your mod with http://www.tesnexus.com/downloads/file.php?id=36399k, which has one component that tweaks NPC sneak. Sneaking NPCs can now have invisibility effects (essentially a modification of Reneer's Realistic Sneak for NPCs mod). NPCs with higher sneak than players can become invisible, if I understand that mod correctly.

Please see the description of Haldar's mod pack component 1 to see how it does wha it does.

So in case when I am running both your and Haldar's mod, say I am standing and a NPC ranger comes near me (his sneak gets boosted up) and then he turns almost invisible to me? That makes me understand that i should not use both your mod and Reneer/Haldar's mod together, correct?

Any way you see to fix this? Something in your ini?

PS: Another archery mod that could over-ride your sneak marksman damage settings would be Duke Patrick's Combat Archery. As I understand, that mod changes bow damage by applying a script, so load order does not matter there...

I looked at Haldar's mod pack, and there is no easy fix at all. Unfortunately he uses the GetAV sneak, instead of GetBaseAV sneak, which means that the moment someone detects you, they would turn invisible. In fact, from what I can tell, without testing it, it seems like that might happen a lot anyway, whether they are intending to attack you or not. But I can't be 100% positive, as I was only skimming through it for key conflict points.

The other issue is that the mod has its own separate calculations for equipment penalties that are very different than SDR.

SDR relies entirely on temp modifications to the NPCs Sneak skill. The only way to avoid that is to create a custom OBSE plugin that literally hooks the detection subscript out of the .exe and replaces it with my own code. I don't have the time or skill to do that any time soon unfortunately. (Believe me, I looked into it, and it's a beast).

If you want to use both mods, I think your only current option unfortunately is to turn off the feature in Haldar's mod in the ini.

The only other possible solution I can think of is to try and rebuild his mod from scratch, using my formulas and techniques, and incorporating them. But that looks really complicated, and would take quite a bit of collaboration. First I need to make sure my mod is working as designed, then I'd have to test his out and really see if that's something I want to incorporate. That's a ways down the road.





From the brief description of Combat Archery, I don't think there is any conflict, but load order might matter. It all depends on whether or not he set the fSneakMarksmanMult settings or not. If he didn't then load order doesn't matter. If he did, then whichever mod is loaded last will take precedence. Since SDR is fully customizable, I recommend having it load after Combat Archery, and use the ini to adjust the multipliers to taste. You can either turn them off, pick one of three preset tracks, or customize them yourself in the fourth track.