Hey all. As I am sure a lot of people know Gameinformer magazine has done this article about all TES games and there's a quick recap of all the games' story in the last two pages

"Each entry in the series ties into a single deeply intertwined story. Senior designer Kurt Kuhlmann walked us through the installments and how each connects to the next."

I am not sure if this is just simplified for the mass of the people who read the magazine but there are some points which pique my interest. Especially the one about Sheogorath and Jyggalag.

There have been some posts here which suggest that even after the Shivering Isles storyline, Sheogorath and Jyggalag will remain as they were. In the article they stated that Jyggalag "although defeated, he will eventually resume his place as the Prince of Order, with unknown ramifications for the complicated and opaque balance of power within Oblivion.” So the two Princes are seperated which could mean a number of things as has been discussed in this forum. The following link (http://www.gamesas.com/index.php?/topic/1096021-arden-sul/page__hl__sheogorath) is a nice post concerning this Sheogorath/Jyggalag argument which i thought was a very good point until i saw the article. . Some other posters also pointed out that Jyggalag is now different and this now would mean Landfall is on its way. Why is that? What's going on?

The other point from the article was that Martin Septim's apotheosis now permanently sealed the barriers between Oblivion and the mortal world, forever preventing the kind of invasion attempted by Mehrunes Dagon. Which is fair enough, that was made clear. But Martin Septim is now within Akatosh? Apotheosis means coming a god so is he now Akatosh, is Akatosh now him? Is he just an avatar of Akatosh now "mantling him"? Does it matter? Is a man becoming Akatosh, a god which the Altmer believe he is going to destroy the world and get rid of the men so that they can return to the original state, going to change something? People have recently pointed out that Akatosh/Alduin is going to make an appearance in TES V to bring about the end of the world..

The shivering isles ending possibly points to an end of the world but this Akatosh thingie doesn't. Am I just overanolysing things?

Any input/thoughts are welcome.

Yes. Yes. An avatar is a god revealed, which Martin is; and upon his apotheosis, he became the covenant. The stone is a husk, a shed skin.

There are mirror wars between the pantheons in TES:
Don't forget that gods can be shaped by the mythopoeic forces of the mantlers...


What could be another motive for sealing Oblivion from invading? What if Dagon indeed came as liberator? Don't think of the gods as beneficent, they're only men and women. No. I for one don't believe in over anolysis. If one comes to the conclusion by a shorter road, fine. anolysis is liberating, as the Dwemer well knew.

Ok yes but that doesn't answer the future questions. I never thought that gods are beneficent especially in TES! But since Martin was at least human then there's no motive for him to wipe clean the slate and all humans just because he is now part of/Akatosh, especially after making sure that Deadra can no longer invade Mundus. Annd since you point out the mythopoeic forces, all the humans now believe that Akatosh is their protector and wouldn't bring about the end of the world! I doubt many people would find Dagon reign very liberating. Muight be liberating for the deadra to finally take over a so called and presumably deadric realm if you believe Mancan Camoran but all the actual people who believe in other things would be horrified.

Liberated the Dwemer may perhaps be but the joke's on them from the point of view of all other mortals. I wonder if they can actually feel glad now they are just a golden skin on their god/creation

You assume humanity is worth saving and Dagon is malevolent.

"Just golden skin" might be the most profound existence unimaginable.

Good points indeed but,

I was pointing out what the people in tamriel would think and believe therefore influencing/shaping the actions of their gods. I think based on what we have seen Dagon would appear to be malevolent to the majority of people in Tamriel. This is all from their point of view.

And agreed it might be bliss for them but again we see this from the point of view of other people in Tamriel.

Is dagon in most Elvish Pantheodons? I can't remember, but I think most of his cults have men. Admittedly though I may be wrong, considering that Mankar Cameron is merish.

Well they all know about the dedra so they know he exists but whether he is worshipped or not that depends on the individual i guess. I wouldn't say he has masses of people and countries all dedicated to his worship.

this is a bit off topic, but i never really understood to what extent can or could or would mortals (influence? shape?) their gods? from what i understand, no worship=no god and or need for god so god goes poof? if so, then, if men shape and influence and potentially remove gods(and or remover the need for the gods?) by not worshiping them, is this now, or some time in the future, to be an age of men(and or mer) and not the age of gods and magic?

The gods exist and belief in them just influences/changes some aspects of them, Even with no believers they still exist as spirits strong or weak. And especially the Aedra who help create this world are bound to it/ they are part of this world like gravity exists

These ideals are not going to change in nature, even though they may change in representation. But, even in the west, the Rainmaker vanishes. No one needs him anymore.

eh, OK, i guess its not so much kill and destroy and eliminate as it is about change into something else. still sound like a universe made for and fashioned by(even if only in part) by men and mer.

Can one oust the model not because the model is set according to an ideal but because it is tied to an ever-changing unconscious mortal agenda?

There was an interesting post--by MK I believe--that differently-mantled gods of the same identity may have different motives. For example: Akatosh-Auriel-Tosh Raka-Alduin. If Martin has indeed become an aspect and/or mantled Akatosh, the aspect of Martin may wish to turn against his mirror-brother Alduin to protect his favorite Kalpa.

Don't forget that gods can be shaped by the mythopoeic forces of the mantlers-- so Tosh Raka could be an Akaviri avatar of Akatosh with a grudge against his mirror-brother in Cyrodiil.

Just like Akatosh-as-we-usually-know-him could time-scheme against his mirror-brother of the Nords, Alduin, to keep the present kalpa-- perhaps his favorite-- from being eaten.

Notice all the coulds.

Yeah. That. I think the possibility that an aspect of Akatosh now is Martin could reinforce the possibility of a schism between the many variations of the Time God.

But I'm not getting my hopes up

I don't usually post in the lore forums as I have difficulty keeping everything straight, but I'm curious.

If I'm understanding this thread correctly...Akatosh (or whichever you wish to call him) potentially has multiple personality disorder? And the personalities don't necessarily agree with each other?



Are you saying that there's now another facet of Akatosh represented by Martin, or that Martin has influenced an aspect of Akatosh?

The Aedroth Aka, who goes by so many names as to perhaps already suggest what I'm about to commit to memospore, is completely insane. His mind broke when his "perch from Eternity allowed the day" and we of all the Aurbis live on through its fragments, ensnared in the temporal writings and erasures of the acausal whim that he begat by saying "I AM". In the aetheric thunder of self-applause that followed (nay, rippled until convention, that is, amnesia), is it any wonder that the Time God would hate the same-twin on the other end of the aurbrilical cord, the Space God? That any Creation would become so utterly dangerous because of that singular fear of a singular word's addition: "I AM NOT"?

To translate: Yes.


Martin may just have become a god, as well. Or some sort of weird Talos aspect, perhaps.

I was suggesting Martin has become a part of Akatosh-as-we-know-him, that is the Imperial's worship-deviant referred to as Akatosh. But I have no real evidence to support that suggestion. It's possible that Martin has completely replaced Akatosh, or become an entirely new "version" of the Time God.

Well I believe that there are many different aspects of akatosh that are very different. How else could we have martin become a go through akatosh, the akatosh the cyridiil believe in, the akatosh the nords believe in, and also tosh raka. They all represent time but different aspects of it.

And at least a few of them like to devour the world every now and again and start all over again.