Fight scenes are very hard to write about. The battle itself only lasts a few seconds yet it takes far longer than that for the reader to actually read the paragraph.
It is only the talent of the writer, through the use of fear, tension and chaos of the moment that manages to convey the battle into the mind's eye.
And when you are finished reading you find yourself holding your breath and wonder when that started.

You must make the reader lose his / her space in time and occupy your world.

Did you do that ?

Wow, is that the time??
Damn it.
Sorry, must go............

:bolt:

That was awesome, loved the description of her struggle.
You might want to look at this sentence, I though it to be rather awkwardly phrased:
How about: ..and tossed some fireballs in an attempt to make the bush he was hiding behind, catch fire. His bush... I don't know..... :rofl:

I didn't know about that cortisol stuff you described. I think I can use that.

With this installment, you show your range as a writer- the package and note from Janus, the melancholy of Countess Anvil and "the forger," the heart-pounding fight scene. But even as you write in a more serious tone, we still hear it in Maxical's voice and see it through her eyes. And maintaining that "voice" is not easy when moving from light-hearted mishaps to deadly serious combat. Nicely done.

@ Everyone - SubRosa and I had discussed the need for more fights in our stories before we drowned you all in an estrogen-fest, lol.

Because I have gone to great lengths to keep Maxical from being uber or mary-sue-ish I have not wanted her to get into many fights. (To stay in the story she would have to win them all, so may end up looking that way even if she wasn't written with that intention).

Still, that said - I did not realize that the only fight she has had since the arena was whaling up on Sneakers, lol.

First I want to apologize to you all for neglecting to spike her story with testosterone periodically. In order to make up for the breach I have called in the Big Dog to make sure the fight I wrote would be good enough.

The end result was that Foxy co-wrote the script for this fight. (You might find it fun to try and decipher which of us wrote which parts).

So this fight is for all of you, who have very patiently read through shenanigans, tears, and love scenes when you were hoping for blades and blood that did not have a vampire connected, lol.

I hope you all give kudos to Foxy for this fight, because every idea I have for fighting comes from his thread, (or a 5 paragraph PM) or you are reading his lines, lol.

***

@ Destri Melarg - This paragraph is one that Foxy and I both worked on.

I knew about adrenalin and cortisol because I did my college thesis on stress and the "fight or flight" reflex. Somehow I never thought of using it in writing the fight, lol. (Nothing gets by Foxy.) This sentence is his:

"You can actually count the droplets of spit, count every tooth as their mouth draws back into a snarl from rage or effort."

Thank you so much for your kind words, especially after having read some of your battles where you account for armies of men (and Khajiit)!

***

@ Foxy - You need to take some bows Foxy; not just for the co-write, but for all the time and effort put into your own thread to teach others how to write for combat, but for your personal teachings as well. You pack more into 5 paragraphs than most could in a semester in college. Thank you Foxy, for all of it. Your genius shows in everything you do! (truth)

***

@ Winter Wolf - ROFL! Thank you very much! I hope you enjoy it, it was your comment a couple chapters ago that inspired and spurred me into getting out of my comfort zone and writing this, I really wanted to show you all how much I appreciate you.

***

@ RemkoNL - ROFL!! Let me go fix that, lol. Thank you so much, that did sound odd, lol. (Me too, I'd like to just be able to think before opening my mouth, lol.) - I love the storyline you are doing now!!


***

@ Treydog - Thank you so very much! I am glad you came back before I had to come down there and "fix" that modem with a screwdriver, lol.

I won't ever tell anyone about the day I "fixed" $13,000 dollars and 8 years of research into cross-breeding roses and an underground sprinkler system...Let's just say it was not a pretty picture, and everything was NOT coming up roses anymore.

Treydog I was running on a 4 day without sleeping jag and finally ended it and slept like a banshee - I didn't get to comment your thread before it reached the 200 limit and got locked, so I sent you a PM with my comments, I only pulled one line out to send you, but could have pulled several - many had already been noticed by the other readers. It was the " You know my sense of direction isn't that good- and I won't stop to ask anyone if I get lost." - that had me rolling! Awesome write, I will PM you to death till you get the next thread up, lol.

I am still all for drowning the men in estrogen btw.

If you want to put more fights in, but avoid that danger of uber-ness, you can still have Maxical lose and still survive. For starters she might just run away. If her opponent is slower than she is, it will work. Or she might drink an invisibility potion and scamper off to safety. Another option is that someone else might come in to help her. There are supposed to be legionaries patrolling the woods and forests after all. She might even purposely run to a place she knows there is a legion post or other people who will help her. Or remember early in the Buffy fiction, we saw our youthful proto-heroine being held up by a highwayman, and rather than fight she just paid him (then went back later and killed him from ambush...). In the current fight scene I am writing one of the thoughts I had was for Teresa to leap off a bridge and into a river to escape a group of bandits. I did not use it because I wanted something else to happen on dry land (I do not want to give away any spoilers). But I might still put it to use in a different chapter somewhere down the line.

Also keep in mind that not every battle has to be to the death, they can end in a draw where both sides withdraw rather than risk being killed. Bandits do not want to die any more than Maxical does, if things look bad for them it is only natural that they will look for a way out. For example, in this one you have now if Maxical kills the melee slugger, that would give the archer a good incentive to bug out rather than face Maxical one on one. Or for that matter, Maxical might give him a serious injury that will cause him to retreat, while the archer continues to fire, forcing Maxical to take cover while he escapes. The two might then simply fade away into the woods, leaving Maxical to lick her own wounds.

That is one of the things I love about Fallout 3, some of the enemies that attack you will run from the fight if you are too tough on them, saying "This isn't worth it" or "I don't want to die!"


Maxical will fight to the death, she has courage, just no real skills except blade. She was cut short when they were handing out brains as well, but she can be cunning. In her heart she wants to be a warrior, but she has always been a screw-up.

Your suggestions are def something I will look into so there can be more testosterone floating around in her story - er, that is ones that aren't being used for love. - I can't believe that other word I had there got censored, lol.

Too much combat is boring. I never ever had a feeling your fan-fic was lacking in that department. I agree with SubRosa. Last night I was thinking about a combat scene that ends in a "draw". Not all battles have to end with death.

@mALX1You're into flowers? Go figure, I work at one of Holland's biggest flowerexporters.

Actually no, it was my first husband (he passed away). He crossbred roses to come out with new colors, new patterns of petals.

I'd like to give credit to D. Foxy, first for the information, inspiration, and battle techniques I used to write the fight scene in this chapter. D. Foxy co-wrote the fight segment of this chapter, plus taught me everything I know about writing combat scenes with his own thread "Of Blades, Fights, and Assassins, Martial Arts techniques for Combat Writing" posted below. Please be sure to give him credit as the resident expert in combat !! Foxy, I hope I have interpreted your teaching correctly. Here is a link to that thread:


http://www.gamesas.com/bgsforums/index.php?showtopic=1037618&hl=



Chapter 49: Once A Fighter


The Khajiit's roar was echoed by a shriek behind him. Momentarily distracted, he spun to see his ally, hair in flames from the fireball intended for him. Any other time it may have been comical to watch him trying to put it out. I saw my moment and tried to move in, but made too much noise. Hearing me advancing he spun back around, almost catching me with his poisoned dagger. I leapt back just in time, jarring my shoulder so badly that I screamed and nearly dropped to my knees.

In the Arena I was a graceful dancer pirouetting with my blade; now I was clumsy and slow, noisy and winded. I felt every pain as if my skin were that of a newborn baby. How had I let myself get this much out of shape? I would be booed out of the Arena fighting like this. I had faced a lot worse than this Khajiit, and probably should have ducked in under that axe and shoved my blade up through his throat and into his skull, but I had felt a twinge of fear, choosing instead the safer route of severing his arm. This fight should have been over a long time ago, and I should have been on my way. Instead I was screaming in pain and bleeding to weakness while amateur bandits were about to take me down. I am not even a good warrior anymore, and that is the only thing I have ever been good at.

The only reason I still lived was that the cat was dumber than me. When he had that huge axe, if he had held it horizontally he could have whacked the sword out of my hands and chopped my head off on the backswing. Thank goodness for small favors, these were no pros. I vowed to Akatosh to go to the Bloodworks and start practicing again if he saw fit that I live through this.

My weakness must have been writ across my face, for the Khajiit's expression changed to that of someone who is going to finish me. We used signals in the Arena for that, he had never fought there and was beating me. I have never been so humiliated. I flashed him the Arena sign for finishing him off to frighten him. I could not be sure if it worked.

He got into the fight stance with his dagger, swinging it and trying to maneuver me so my back would be to the archer. I'm glad he did, because I had lost track of the archer, his fur armor blended in to the tall grasses and bushes too easily. Now I knew where he was, and knew to keep my back from that direction.

The Khajiit planted his feet, a sure sign he was weakened from blood loss. He effectively handed the fight back over to me doing that, since I have a long sword and he has only a dagger. That gave me some confidence which I was careful not to let show on my face.

I pasted a look of on my face of someone about to swoon and began swaying slightly, trying to look weaker than I really was and hoping he would respond by charging me. It would waste less of my energy that way, and give me a better chance to hit him. If I attack him he would obviously dodge it, but if he is attacking me has to come straight to me. Unfortunately he never did lunge, his feet were still planted, his legs bent slightly at the knee. He was trying to do a rocking motion, but kept hitting his arm and causing himself pain.

The hand with the dagger was doing some fancy pattern in front of him, like he was trying to lure my eyes in to his movements and distract me. I feinted sporadically, making quick lunges toward him then darting back; letting him think I was afraid of him so as to build his confidence. He should have realized this was a ploy, a long sword against a dagger, but by the superior look on his face I could tell he didn't figure it out.

Following the dancing dagger of the Khajiit was easy, I am a cat, he should have known better. I counted the cadence of his movements to time my plunge just right, steeling a look on my face of what I hoped was fear.

A loud twang told me the archer had taken up a new position already. The next arrow hit my right arm, but did not stick in.

The weak look was not drawing him in, so I changed it to what I hoped was a look of fear.

The Khajiit started laughing and mocking me. I let him continue till I was sure of my timing, and then lunged straight into him, piercing him mid-abdomen. As soon as the foible of my blade slid in I twisted my wrist and wrenched my arm hard with all my strength into a semi-circle that sliced through his liver and then disemboweled him. He made a grunting sound as the blade twisted down. I cursed as I felt him stab my right shoulder with his poisoned dagger, and quickly leapt back before he could twist it. I could not afford to lose use of my right arm.

Whatever poison he had on the dagger was weak, thank goodness. The Khajiit had a surprised look on his face. I lunged back in and thrust my blade up between his ribcage, almost slipping in the contents of his abdomen that was seeping out the hole my blade left and dotting the ground in front of him.

Forcing the foible at an angle to his left while thrusting it up all the way to the forte of the blade I tried to pierce his lung and heart. I was rewarded by the 'shhh' sound as the air left his lungs, and bubbles filled the blood that gushed down. Surely my sword went up far enough to get his heart, yet he still stood. I pulled my sword back out and stepped back.

Somehow the man still stood. I don't know how, but even after pieces of his entrails dotted the ground beneath him and blood and foul smelling fluids were pushing out the hole in his abdomen the man still stood; never changing his position nor that stupid surprised look on his face. He still held his dagger, just staring at me.

I considered taking his head off, but had to save some blade for that archer, it wasn't far from breaking if I kept using it. My blade was dull, I had not used it in a long time, and obviously had put it away damaged and filthy. I did not feel like much of a warrior at this moment.

I had heard the loud sound of his bow several times, and could feel the pain from two arrows as they stuck in me the whole time I was fighting the cat, each movement scrapping the arrowhead against the raw wound and cutting into my muscle. Half the battle cries I yelled as I gored the Khajiit were from pain those arrows caused. It was almost a relief to suffer the pain of their removal rather than the torture of the constant scraping in a raw wound.

You can only kill a person just so much, if they don't die then it is their lucky day I guess. I left him and went after the archer. I forgot and tried to catch some of the arrows with my shield, forcing my arm to move and then screaming because my shoulder felt like the axe was in it all over again.

Finally I stopped trying to block them, the arrows could not possibly hurt as bad as that shoulder. A few arrows had lodged in my legs, I had to clench my teeth hard to jerk out the ones I could reach to keep them from cutting into my muscles each time my leg moved. Had I tried to push them through they may have damaged my leg muscles leaving me unable to walk, but it sure would have hurt less than yanking them out.

The archer had a lot of speed, and was uninjured. If he had left me alone I would have turned and gone on my way, but when I tried he doubled back and started shooting at my back. He had healed his head from the fireball, but could not heal his hair. It was singed off over the top and one side. He kept backing away from me, sometimes even turning his back and running.

The fireball was not reaching the archer, so I changed to a spell that would. If I held my left arm stiffly I could hold the blade for a very short time, but the weight of it was hurting my shoulder if I tried to carry it in that hand too long. The weight of the shield was already bothering that arm, it was beginning to tremble with weakness.

Passing the sword to my left hand, I cupped my right hand around it for support. Walking sideways like a crab I tried to get in closer to use the spell. With the shield wedged up on my arm I could only protect my vital organs by presenting with my left side.

Advancing fast to get him to turn his back and run worked. He did. Quickly I let go the blade with my right hand and started casting lightning bolts at his back. Some hit him, some hit the trees around him bouncing around in a ricochet that scared him into swerving directions. I rapid fired them till I heard him screaming instead of the yelps. Passing the blade back to my right hand I charged him.

He had dropped his bow and immediately began searching for it till he realized I was too close and he drew a dagger. I could not see if it was poisoned or not, but would not take a chance. I held him off at arms length, playing for time till I could catch my breath.

My left shoulder had been bleeding steadily. I could feel the warm rivulets trickling down inside my armor causing it to stick to my skin, and I felt weakened from chasing him so far. Oh how I need to learn to heal.

I distracted him by spouting Janus's stream of curses. It worked, he stared at my face as if I had gone berserk. With one swift movement I swept his ankle with my blade. I was totally out of strength from the injuries and my timing was off from not training in so long. I barely nicked his ankle. He was breathing heavy from running, but appeared uninjured. I felt humiliated by the fail.

I put my blade in front of me, appearing to hold it in both hands, and swayed back and forth; an Arena trick to make your opponent think you are getting too weak to hold your weapon. After my poor attempt to sweep his ankle it was a good time to use it.

He fell for it, I saw the confidence rise in his eyes. I tried to look afraid, and as if I may drop any second as I got into a stance to attack. He was not paying attention to my feet or how I was holding my blade, only mocking me for the weak and scared expression I had put on.

The blade was in my left hand, my right cupped over it. I waved the sword in front of me in a pattern to keep his dagger at a distance, watching his eyes for a flicker that would tell me he was about to make his move.

My trick had worked, his confidence was high. He began laughing and taunting, calling me 'Furlicker,' and asking if it was time to change my diaper.

As soon as he did I dropped my right hand and hit him at close range with the lightning bolt, then passed the sword back to my right hand. I didn't have to run, just lunge hard.

My sword went clean through him, scraping hard against his spine as it passed. I made a quick step back, pulling my blade out at an angle to do more damage to his spinal chord and then thrust it up deeply into his lung, puncturing it with the foible. The tougher muscle of his heart was nicked, the quivering response just barely tangiible through the blade.

He would be dead in seconds, but before he could die I pulled back out fully and with all my remaining strength swung, doing a full spin and severing his head from his body. It flew four feet, no record; but I needed to do that for myself, to remember who I was, who I could be again. I had to use both hands to decapitate him, my screaming from the pain in my shoulder as I did it being the last sound he would hear on this earth.

I collapsed then, too weak to move away from his body. I had not been in a fight in so long that I forgot how filthy it feels to be covered with another person's blood and stinking body fluids or pieces of them clinging in your hair or on your skin. I could smell the Khajiit's bowel fluids on me and my stomach surged into my throat, almost overcoming my breathing. My own blood covered me as well, mostly from my shoulder, but the places I had wrenched the arrows out instead of pushing them through had ripped the skin leaving huge bleeding gouges in my legs and arms. I craved a bath and needed healing desperately.

My sword was so damaged and gouged it was useless, nearly broken. My armor was in tatters, giving me no protection anymore. With no means of defense or protection and all these wounds still bleeding out I knew I would not live if attacked again. I crawled to the archer's body and searched him, hoping to find some healing potion. He had one cheap bottle, it barely made a difference. I needed help.

Anvil was a little closer than Skingrad, but I was afraid to go to Anvil after seeing that forger in line to speak to the Countess. He looked so sad, he may feel he has nothing to live for and be up there to confess all, then point to me as his last job.

Casting invisibility, I forced myself up. Skingrad was the safest choice, not that much further than Anvil, and without the risks. I set out in that direction, stiff and sore, exhausted and light headed. I had not walked far when I saw a man standing in an odd pose not too far ahead of me. I was invisible, but still crouched down anyway and tried to sneak by him, fearing another attack. As I neared I realized it was the Khajiit I had fought. He was still standing there! I crept closer, as quietly as I could. His eyes had a milky film covering them, he had died standing up, his feet planted and knees locked had kept him from falling! I had never seen such a thing, it was eerie.

I liked how you put us so deeply into Maxical's head during this battle, showing us not only how she is thinking tactics, but also feeling her shortcomings and weaknesses. You very successfully portray what would be a simple little one minute skirmish in game as a gripping struggle. Nicely done!


This I loved!

:celebration:


Now some nits:

I was looking over the first post of the battle and noticed this:

Should that not be his axe, rather than hammer?

Also, the Khajiit was fighting with an axe at the beginning of the second post, then a five paragraphs in he is using a dagger. Did he drop his axe?



This should be baby's, not babies



You have a space before the period there.



This sounds awkward. Taking out "own" and making it causing himself pain would probably flow better.



This might sound smoother if it were rearranged a bit, like so: I had to jerk out the ones I could reach,


Movies are filled with it because it looks good on the screen, but a professional never turns their back on their opponent to do a spinning move:

It is not a real complaint, because I understand Maxical's motivations for doing so. It is in the next sentence after all. But it is something to keep in mind in the future.

Gorey..... I liked it.

I'll bet Maxical's glad that's over!

I remember trying to explain to my literature classes why sometimes words are more powerful than pictures. The example I gave (for us old folks) was the difference in a scene in the book and movie The Summer of '42.

In the scene, two of the friends get into a scuffle, as adolescent boys will. In the book, one of them is remembering the advice his father gave, thinking about how his father had been in some professional boxing matches, etc. And then he realizes he doesn't know if his father won any of those fights- what if he is taking advice from a loser?

In the movie- it is simply a quick scuffle in the sand- one boy wins, the other loses, all over.

So- here is another great example of the printed (or illuminated) word being better than the video (game) version of the scene. Sometimes you need a thousand words instead of a picture. We get to listen to Maxical's thoughts, feel her fear, gasp for breath along with her. The fight is presented with a stark realism that underscores the deadly seriousness of fighting with a blade.

On a different note, I really hope Bethesda incorporates a "surrender" or "retreat" option into TESV- it would make game play much more interesting. In the meantime, we can always write our stories that way- the player character or the "bad people" decide to "bravely run away."

Amazing stuff !!
D.Foxy certainly brings such amazing realism to the fight scenes.
The world of swordplay and combat is vastly different to the way it is glamorized, and this chapter shows us the true meaning of struggle.

If role playing and computer games were combat realistic, then no character would ever reach 10th level.
Kind of makes us all want to hide behind illusion spells or destruction spells from distance, no??

Wow! Excuse me while I go catch my breath! oo: :clap:

Striking example! There are sooo many people who don't understand this when I start whining the book was so much better. (not neccesarily the book and film Trey is referring to)
Just compare the recent films of "Jason Bourne" and then read the book written by Ludlum... The film doesn't even come near the true plot.

@ Treydog - If I had not been pressed for words and edited it out, in the first post I had her wondering if she could just run, of course it would have put her back to the archer, and she couldn't outrun his arrows so she stayed to fight, then after the Khajiit I had her wondering it again, but the archer shot at her continuously in that fight, hitting her twice, so she was determined to find him and finish it at that point. The fight would have been 5000 words long before I sent it to Foxy to proof, so I started editing the heck out of it to shorten it, then sent it to Foxy who promptly filled it back up again, but with better stuff than what I had edited out, lol.

Thank you so very much Treydog, I agree with you. Although I have never actually been in a fight, I assumed when people fight there would be some thoughts go through their head. I tried to put myself in Maxical's shoes and wonder what she would have been thinking and feeling; what specifically would stir her rage or her fear.

It always means a lot to me that you take the time to read and post! You ROCK!

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@ RemkoNL - I am not big on blood, and don't even like to watch movies that have blood or gore in them. It is a huge effort for me to get gory, and I have to force myself to do it. (and not eat for a while before or after, lol).

I have one movie I love, (Cat People with Nastassja Kinski) that I have to leave the room when the leopard rips the man's arm off, lol.

Battle tactics and psychology of battle does interest me though, go figure!

Thank you so much RemkoNL !!

***

@ Acadian - I take it you hated this or read it before breakfast, hence the short response - ROFL !!! (either that or I have a PM coming with Nits, lol) Thank you so much Acadian, I will look for your PM and be prepared to edit the H out of it, lol !!

** Edit: At your suggestion I re-wrote the whole fight scene including the first post, hope you like it better now !!

***

@ Winter Wolf - Yes to all, Foxy is amazing with combat, it becomes too real to comfortably visualize for me.

If Maxical could aim I might have to make her a distance fighter so she may live longer, lol.

Still, I remember reading the logbooks of pilots that drop bombs from their planes, and there is a total separation they feel from the bombs they are releasing and the dead or maimed people who are injured by those bombs. They can be discussing a meal while pressing the button, it eliminates the deep thought about what is actually taking place.

I don't know if I would ever want her to reach that point of complacency about killing.

Thank you so much Winter Wolf! I appreciate you a lot!

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@ Destri Melarg - I hope that means you liked it, lol. Thank you so much for reading! - Destri - you ROCK all your chapters, but this latest couple have me addicted !!!

Hey mALX1, I finally get to rest after the exams and I was able to read the story updates. To be honest I was actually reading it when I was supposed to study, but it helped me with my English writing. Don't worry, I didn't copy your story, but your description and the characters feelings helped me a lot. Thanks .
Anyway, I really enjoyed the new chapters you wrote and I hope you continue to keep this story going!

My friend mALX, I see you know me entirely too well for my short benign comment to get past you. As we privately discussed, yes I had some significant concerns with the original post as far as being awkward, hard to follow and not sounding at all like Maxical. We talked in detail and I see you have indeed done massive editing.

I am so pleased to report that, at least for this humble fan, it now sings to me. The awkwardness in your word choices and sentence structure is gone. The action remains realistic, but I can now easily follow it instead of spending too much time lost in the stirring of innards by the foible of a sword.

The entire two part fight chapter is now smoothly written, realistically gritty, polished and above all, Maxical. I highly recommend those who have not done so consider rereading.

My advice on fight scenes: Do not seek them out to satisfy readers. Have Maxical fight when she needs to. Foxy has taught you what is realistic. Now listen to Maxical to determine how detailed you want to present it.

Only one aspect nags at me now, and I don't recommend you do a thing about it except possibly ponder it for the future. An arrow from a long bow is significant. It will ruin your day and quite possibly knock a Khajiit woman to the ground. The first arrow to Maxical's shoulder seemed to get its realistic due. I question her ability to survive the several arrows that followed.

Before I respond to this, I want to make clear that I am not arguing your advice, just wondering if you missed key passages, or the significance of the shoulder wound and the effect of that pain. When you are in pain over an extended period your brain releases endorphins that are similar to taking a hydrocodone or cocaine, a natural pain killer. Fed by the adrenalin of the battle, I doubt the arrows would hold as much significance as the wound in her shoulder, although as you can see from the passages below, she obviously felt them and found them painful. Also, she had three significant arrows by the end of the Khajiit fight and one glance off her. As she chased the archer she got 2-3 more - all in her arms or legs, these are not mortal wounds, no vital organs or arteries are involved.

If you have seen the below passages, and still feel that not enough significance was placed on the pain from the arrows (and in taking into account the shoulder wound) I would be more than happy to rewrite again, (perhaps tonight). However, as the passages below show, I did deal with each arrow hit, maybe not to the extent you feel I should have; and as I said I can always re-write again if need be to keep the realism in the scenes. I wasn't sure if due to time constraints you had just scanned and missed the below passages.

I look at the shoulder wound as: If you have a pain and someone smashes your toe with a hammer, which do you feel worse? In comparison to that shoulder, the arrows do not have as high a significance in the pain department. I think the bolded areas cover the fact that it was painful without actually writing "she screamed in pain" at each hit, in my mind that would become redundant quickly. :

The numbness from the arrow in my shoulder was now a burning pain, and each movement of my left arm seemed to shift the armor, causing the arrowhead to gouge in a new direction in the already inflamed wound. I had my teeth clenched to keep from screaming each time it did that, but the armor had pulled over the flange of the arrowhead blade somehow, making it impossible to remove it without lining up the hole it made going in. There would be no pulling it out, not with the attack still ongoing.

I had heard the loud sound of his bow several times, and could feel the pain from two arrows as they stuck in me the whole time I was fighting the cat, each movement scrapping the arrowhead against the raw wound and cutting into my muscle. Half the battle cries I yelled as I gored the Khajiit were from pain those arrows caused.

Finally I stopped trying to block them, the arrows could not possibly hurt as bad as that shoulder. Arrows had lodged in my legs, I had to jerk out the ones I could reach to keep them from cutting into my muscles each time my leg moved. Had I tried to push them through they may have damaged my leg muscles leaving me unable to walk, but it sure would have hurt less than yanking them out.


Acadian, you know I appreciate your help a lot, and I think you are Awesome - I am definately not arguing your advice, just wasn't sure if you maybe just scanned the story for time constraints and missed some of the key passages that dealt with the arrows. I want you to like my story, of course - but before I go into another re-write I want to be clear that you have seen what I have and factored in all the criteria first.






@ Iain Mc - I am so glad you are getting a break to relax, and I love that you were able to use Maxical to help with your classes! You ROCK !!




*

My only advice here was to not edit your story and to ponder my point for the future. :shrug:
I consider this to be a minor point and would prefer you focus more on the complimentary aspects of my comment that preceded this quote.

I'm not quite sure what else to say except to confirm that I believe I read at what I consider to be a normal level of attention and detail. Did I properly sort through all the factors that you intended? I'm not sure. I got an impression from reading the edited story, and I reported that impression. Discussion now cannot change what I felt as I read the story. For better or for worse, accurately or not, I received the impression that she had been hit by several arrows. I did not question how much pain she reported; I questioned her ability to physically remain on her feet and survive. If you say she was hit in the thigh, I envision her leg being swept out from under her. If you say she was hit in the arm, I envision her being spun around. I'm sorry, but I conjured the image of a porcupine as she approached the archer, and I had trouble with that.

Now, what to do?. You are, of course, free to discount or consider the impression I received. Is it likely that I am influenced by playing archers and studying medievil long bows so much? Probably. Am I impressed by their lethality and stopping power? You bet I am. Am I too impressed by them? Perhaps.

As I indicated, I do not recommend trying to edit something that is minor, yet woven throughout these two chapters.

Whatever you decide mALX, I shall adore your stories regardless. I'm a lot of trouble, but I am your biggest fan.

Again, I am not trying to argue with you, nor am I invalidating your right to an opinion here either, I am sure you know me well enough to know that. - That said, I have searched twice and can't find a thigh hit notated in the story; and I am trying to find where you are seeing that. Still, I cannot understand how an arrow hit can kill you if it never strikes an artery or vital organ, just muscle tissue. I can understand it would hurt, maybe cripple you, but kill without major bloodloss? I don't understand how that could happen.

I am not arguing, I am asking you to explain how it can happen - curiousity if you will. (so I can learn something and will know it in the future).

Again, impressions. As a reader, I did not count the arrows or take notes of their locations. Rather, I sensed 'porcupine' or pin cushion (whether right or wrong), and it did not work for me. I would have expected at least one knockdown from simply the power of impact. Such a knockdown might have been fatal in a 1 vs 2 fight.

I think it clearly boils down to how one views the knockdown power of a medievil long bow. Your call as the author, but perhaps the point is well-belabored?

The U.S. Army did an involved study of the psychology of killing, and found some very interesting things. http://www.killology.com/art_psych_intro.htm First of all most species are hard-wired to not want to kill other members of the same species. That is why the many animals who take part in violent battle for mating rights do not actually kill the males they are competing against. When you look at the rack on a full-grown male deer, those horns could easily rip out another animals innards. Yet by instinct the deer only use them against the other male's horns, not his vulnerable areas. The same for other mammals, including humans.

In human warfare it had been estimated that only perhaps 20% of the soldiers involved actually fought to kill, and have been referred to as the "gutful few". The rest are just along for the ride, due to that hard-wiring above. Many soldiers would go through a battle without ever firing their weapon. For example there were cases in the US Civil War where soldiers would continually load the muskets but never actually fire them. Or they would fire it, but never aim at the enemy.

One thing the Army found was that further away you are from your enemy the easier is it to want to kill them. The less human they seem when it is hard to really see them. Also when troops are trained to shoot at a circular target (with the usual colored rings we are accustomed to), the harder it was for them to shoot at a human. However, if they were given human-shaped targets to practice shooting at that popped up and then fell down when hit, then the easier it was for them to shoot at real people. It is basically Classical Conditioning at work. With such modern training over 90% of soldiers fight to kill.


On the subject of longbows, the English Longbow has been often overrated. You will see some tests of people using modern replicas (the stave built using the same materials and techniques as the old ones) and firing arrows into pieces of mail tacked to a board. The arrow pierces the mail with ease. That is for two reasons. The first is that the arrows being used in these tests have steel heads. The famous English arrowhead was called the "bodkin", and had a very narrow point that was perfectly designed to pierce armor. However bodkin arrows were made of iron, not steel. So they would have not gotten through steel armor. The English arrows that were made of steel were of a broader head and had a barb. They had the right material to get through armor, but the broader head means the force of their impact is spread out over a wide area, not concentrated in a small point. Making it less able to pierce armor. The final piece of the puzzle is ballistics. Armor does not behave the same way when it is stuck against an unyielding frame like a wooden board as is it does when it is over a padded under garment and then a soft human body. These things give it some flex, and absorb some of the kinetic energy of a hit, thus making it better able to take a hit without being pierced. It is the same reason many ancient swords were made with a very hard layer of steel on the outside to hold an edge, but a softer core in order to better take a blow.

This also highlights an important point about arrows. You have basically two kinds. One with a narrow, needle-like point that is good for piercing armor. However, because it is so narrow it will do less actual damage to the target when it hits, simply put it makes a smaller hole. The other kind is the broad-headed arrow, with a sharp edge on both sides. These make a big hole and slice lots of tissue. But as previously mentioned, they lack the same force of impact because their very width spreads out their kinetic energy, making them less effective against armor.

When you look at battles like Agincourt that have been hailed as great victories by English archery, you will find that the archers were not as key after all. For example at Agincourt the French attacked the English uphill through a field heavy with mud. The French first sent their knights to attack the English archers, but they could not get at them because of the stakes the English had deployed in front of them, and the deep woods to either side that prevented flanking. That left the English archers able to fire at the French with impunity. So the French came forward on foot and engaged in close combat with the English infantry. They walked at a snail's pace through deep mud in 50+ pounds armor and under constant arrowfire, with formations so packed that the English literally could not miss them. Yet they still reached the English line in such force that the English infantry could not hold them on their own. So the English archers had to be committed into melee combat to stop them. In the end that battle was indeed won by Longbowmen, but using swords and axes rather than bows.

Another example of archery is Carrhae, where we had the Parthians using their very powerful composite bows against heavily armored Roman infantry. The Parthians had brought extra arrows with them so they would not run out (and they had a huge pack train of those arrows, and a brilliant system in place to keep their horse archers resupplied). The Parthians svckered the Romans out into the desert, destroyed their cavalry with ease, and then charged their cataphracts (heavily armored cavalry) at the Roman infantry. The Romans stopped them cold, because heavy cavalry cannot beat heavy infantry that is in close order and prepared to receive their charge. So the Parthians settled into shooting the Romans with their arrows. The Roman infantry could not open their ranks to present less of a target because of the danger of another cataphract charge. So they had to remain in dense formations, making it impossible to miss. Yet the Parthians arrows did not slaughter them. They wounded many Romans in the arms and legs is all. Their arrows could not puncture the Roman shields and armor (although in this case you have to keep in mind that the Parthians were not shooting at point-blank as the English were at Agincourt). In the end they beat the Romans by slowly wearing them down and drawing out groups of Romans into the open, where their superior cavalry could easily destroy them. In the end the Roman army basically panicked, but only after constant hit and run attacks by the Parthians. However, if the Parthians had not packed thousands of extra arrows, they would have soon run out of ammunition and been unable to do anything to the Romans (which had been what the Romans were banking upon).

The bottom line is that in the real world archery is indeed potent and an important component of combined arms tactics, but it lacks the power we equate with modern firearms. Good armor will stop an arrow. Therefore archers are most effective against unarmored, or lightly armored targets. Even there however, unless you get a shot into the heart, liver, artery, or other vital you will not get an instant kill. Deer hunters will often go for the front shoulder area with the hopes that if they miss the heart they will cripple the animal. Then they can come up and cut its throat. Or wait for it to eventually bleed to death from the wound. Most deer hunters are not using replica bows either, but modern compound bows, which are dramatically more accurate and powerful than something like an English Longbow or Hunnish Bow.

Now in a fantasy setting we can change the rules if we like. We can say bows and arrows are more powerful due to a special kind of wood/horn/glue they are made of (especially magic bows!). Or that even the archers themselves might use magic to impart more force to their shot than someone in the real world (very handy if you are a stringy wood elf girl!). Or that they can innately use magic to make their shots more accurate and hit the vitals of a moving target. Or a combination of all three. Some of these might even be a racial trait, like the Breton's magic resistance. So for example Bosmer (who are pretty much renowned for archery in ES) might have this innate magical talent to shoot harder and hit vital spots, not to mention make better bows and arrows in the first place.


Edit to add:
This does bring a question I have been wondering mALX. You said Maxical was wearing armor. But what kind of armor? Obviously this would play a huge role in the effectiveness of arrows against her. I do not believe you ever said so. It is something I was also wondering about when she joined the Thieves Guild. I did not recall you saying she had armor on in the story, but the pic you had showed her in Glass Armor. If she was wearing the same I would expect Iron Arrows of a bandit to be of little or no effect against her, unless the archer got a very lucky shot. Now if the archer was using something like Glass or Ebony arrows herself it would be a somewhat different story of course.