I didn't say they were more realistic than walking, I said they were more realistic than an in-menu unexplained time warping structureless travel system. It's more realistic to hop in a boat and 'teleport' somewhere than to go in your menu and click on a city to suddenly be there with zero explanation.

What?

**Edit: The explanation is self evident ~they walked.

Is that the secret to all of this? That many players do not realize that FT is an implied walk? (and believe that they just popped out of the air miles from where they 'disappeared'?)
That's very hard for me to accept.

You're wrong.

You're still wrong.

Because it's virtually impossible to walk from point A to point B without encountering enemies, yet fast traveling from point A to point B - theoretically the same walking, just without your attention, means you never encounter a single enemy. That's obivously - blatantly - unrealistic.


Again - if your character is out for a walk, your character is going to encounter bandits and monsters along the way. If you substitute fast travel for that walk - no bandits and no monsters. That's unrealistic. Mage teleportation, on the other hand, bypasses the bandits and monsters, so when it bypasses the bandits and monsters, that is (within the context of the game) realistic.


I already did earlier in the thread. I just did again. I'll reiterate - OB style fast travel is unrealistic because it's nominally a substitute for walking/running/riding a horse, but it doesn't include the essentially unavoidable encounters one has when doing those things. Therefore it's NOT truly a substitute for walking/running/riding a horse. Yet it's not treated as if it's something other than that, so in the end it's nothing that makes any sense. It should either be a representation of walking/running/riding a horse, in which case it must include the encounters associated with walking/running/riding a horse, or, if it's going to eliminate those encounters, it should be something that would logically eliminate those encounters - some sort of "mass transit," teleportation or something else that legitimately does so.

How long does it take to heal in TES? If your character was ambushed and killed them all... he'd be healed by the time he got where he was going. Assuming that the trip is a driven forced march with no concern for anything but getting to where they are going, then they ignored their attacker's remains and continued on their way once they could. :shrug:

I fully agree that FT in TES & FO3/NV is completely broken and exploitable ~in NV its also strangely crippled for no sensible reason reason.
But I don't see it as unrealistic.


BTW, I have argued most of those same points since Fallout 3 shipped, and for the same reasons (other than realism); See... over the years, I had got the impression that many players truly assumed that it was "free teleportation *POP!*", and that it was unexplained magic, rather than an implied walk. (I still believe that some believe this.)

There are many rpg's or psuedo-rpg's without menu bases fast travel, there aren't many without combat



First, it's never explained to my knowledge that it is foot travel. Second, I don't believe it takes away fatigue and you do not experience the hardships that the actual travel would encompass.

As for the argument of realism, the Mage Guild teleportation is explained as magic. The menu based system is ambiguously referred to as 'travel', not walking, not running, just travel. Not only that but you choose the travel from a menu, so it is by necessity separate from the game world.

Sure, there is a "fade to black" for non-menu based fast travel but it makes an entirely different implication. Fade to black is arguable for Morrowind's travel system in my opinion because there is little chance of anything HAPPENING when you are riding a huge animal or a boat or teleporting via magic. Walking, on the other hand, would take far longer thus increasing the already high chances of having an occurrence during travel and thus a fade to black isn't logical. The implication here is that you can walk on foot through the landscape and never be bothered by anything, not be hurt/fatigued, and do it in a comparable amount of time to faster methods of travel, I just can't agree with that implication

Classic argument of someone who is shown incorrect but is unable to admit their fault. Life must be simple having the debating capacity of a child

Please name one? (I can't visualize how that would work.)

I swear, I had not yet read your post before editing my last one. I cannot imagine imagining it to be other than an implied walk.

How is it implied? Not only do you not experience nearly any of the difficulties the go along with walking but it is never referenced in any way that you walked. If I told you I 'traveled' from Chicago to New York would you ASSUME I walked?

If we lived in 1100AD and you weren't a noble... Yes.

But its beside the point. Time compression is a part of every RPG I have ever seen (paper or PC). When your PC travels for free ~he's usually walking.

Morrowind, Diablo, and Pokemon are two obvious examples that don't employ menu based fast travel as their primary method of transportation. I could cite the multitude of linear RPGs that are completely devoid of fast travel methods at all but I feel like it's not an accurate argument for the context. It's mostly only a relevant topic in sandbox RPG's, I don't remember Kotor having any fast travel besides the fully explained and even more realistic in world ship travel system. I can't remember other sandbox rpg's off of the top of my head. I'm sure there are numerous RPG's that are heavily menu based that might employ it for the lack of having other timely options. Bottom line is that menu-based fast travel is definitely not self evident

How can I argue against someone who can't realize the obvious? Where can I argue sense into their mind? Why bother? I'd prefer you be wrong, so I can laugh freely.

An interesting idea but I don't see how it fosters more exploration than Morrowind or Oblivion's fast travel.

Nice idea though.

Peasant's had little need during the great majority of their time to travel distances so that's irrelevant. Nobles had the choice of horseback, carriage, or boat, the latter two of which are not found in Oblivion.

I never said I had an issue with time compression, I said I had an issue with unrealistic time compression that gave you no feeling like you actually traveled the distance other than being at the destination and that removes the ability to interact with the world in order to travel.

Agreed.

OP: If you could only fast travel to were you fast travelled from, wouldn't you just fast travel back to your first spot and then fast travel to a new location? It seems a bit unitutive.

So by showing that my 'wrongness' is only rooted in your preference you freely admit that you have no credible argument? Well at least you can admit to that

I've never played Pokimon, but I have played Diablo, and recall no Fast travel of the kind seen in an open world ~Which Diablo isn't. The closest thing I know of is NWN with the recall stone. In Diablo you have the town portal spell, and it brings you to town and back, but there is no conventional travel at all in Diablo except walking.

*Though there are a few doors that lead straight to town using an implied stair case ~... I can't know that its a staircase, because its never actually shown on-screen; but I can say that in 14 years, this is the first time I ever considered that it might not have been stairs.

The thing about that is all time compression in a game will be like that. There just isn't any time compression feature that can allow you to feel like you actually traveled the distance other than being at the destination and still be time compression.

But yeah, fast travel is implied that you have walked to the place. Something doesn't have to pop up to say "You've walked to such and such place". Since time passed equal to the distance you traveled and you appeared there, I assume I walked there. Now if magic surrounded me when I fast traveled then I would assume I teleported. Walking is a much more typical form of travel than a travel service imo.

I dunno if you're agreeing with me or not. Diablo had town portal areas and the spells. Pokemon had mostly walking, eventually you could teach a pokemon 'fly' which let you travel to any city but I would count that as an interactive fast travel mechanic rather than a menu-based since you needed to have the pokemon with you and it took up room in their move list. Like I said, I can't think of that many pure sandbox rpg's I played so I can't bring up more examples for or against

I don't remember ever going through a staircase directly to town unless the areas were assumed to be adjacent much in the way your upstairs is right above the downstairs so it goes directly there

Darn, I always thought I was using the subterranean equivalent of stilt riders, and now you're telling me were just walking back down to the level of the dungeon we wanted to get to? That is so immersion breaking!!!

In Morrowind I felt like I traveled the distance. I knew the mode of transportation (it was always right there) and it was believable that there was travel involved because I would not expect issues arising from those modes and so the exclusion of issues did not hurt the believability of the travel.

All of the Black Isle RPG's that I've played had time compressed walking (after selecting a destination on the map); and in those you could get ambushed on the way. As I said, I cannot visualize a menu-less mode of fast travel ~unless the destination is pre-determined.

The whole point of FT is to bypass the time. Some will want to explore, some have seen it (plenty of times) and just want to skip to the arrival, and get on with their task. Its the same in Diablo ~that's what the Town-Portal spell is for.


If the game went Third Person as it faded to black, and the PC was seen striding off at a pace... Would that be sufficient?

(I actually suggested this about three (more like two) years ago for Fallout 3.)

An ambush system is even more realistic and immersive than Oblivion's system. In Morrowind if I wanted to get somewhere I might have to go through 2 or 3 other towns and talk to different people. It reminds you that you are in a world. In Oblivion you don't have to really interact with people that much and could go from city to city without pit stops, it was easy to remember that it wasn't a unique world but just a videogame with clear and direct objectives

I guess your other suggestion would help, I'd still prefer an ambush/encounter system along with that and the Morrowind system above them both

But that's the thing, I didn't feel anything more out of a silt strider than fast travel. Walking was just as evident as riding the silt strider. If we go by the way of them not telling us what was going on, then it could be reciprocated to Silt striders and the man/woman could just be teleporting you to the destination while standing in front of their pet silt strider.

You have to take some things for granted, such as walking to a destination. It shows how disconnected we have become as a society when walking isn't a believable mode of transportation. Damn you cars! :swear:

This idea is irksome though... It means that my PC cannot set out on a direct route on foot ~unless I am forced to sit there and navigate him from A to B ; I should be able to choose a location and have him handle the minutia.