The stars are tears to oblivion, and the holes with which magic enters the world through, so I was just wondering if light/heat is a property of magic. Like, maybe, most magicka is not visible to mortals and can pass through matter, so that's why magic still works in dark caves. And torches draw magicka from the nearby area, and send it out as light, or, vampires are more sensitive to perceptable magic, so they are weak to fire/sun damage.

This would explain why spells look so showy, and why shock damage is more difficult to cause, as fire would be concentrating magicka on the subject, and frost would be drawing it away from the subject, but shock damage is sending magicka through the air to the target.

And, with this theory, mages need to sleep to recover magicka because while sleeping, they draw magicka in from around them.

So, to those lore buffs out there: does this theory violate any established lore?

Magicka leaks out of the holes ripped in Oblivion to the Aetherius. The magicka that is leaked out causes Nirn and the daedric realms of Oblivion to be saturated with magicka.

Now, magicka, as I have studied, is not just light and heat, that's luminescent decay (or however it's called. Too lazy to find my chem books). Instead, think of magicka as invisible and massless units of pure potential energy. Magicka by itself will not do anything, as it originates from stasis. Now, when it is acted upon, it readily acts as a form of kinetic energy that allows a talented mage to manipulate his/her surroundings and cause a change. Further study begins to point that realms within the grey maybe are subjected to the 0th-3rd Law of Thermodynamics.
Examples would be casting the 3 elemental spells, fire, lightening, and ice. With those, you take in your reserves of magicka and manipulate the environment to produce a change from igniting the air around you, polarize charges to create lightening, and freeze the air and water around to produce frost. Alteration is almost the same thing, manipulation of the environment around to cause a physical change. Now, what will cause the spells to decay is thanks to Sithis, who, by his very force of being, will cause things to reach 0.

Concluding, magicka is nothing more than pure potential energy that saturates all realms within the grey maybe, thanks to the holes ripped in Oblivion to the Aetherius. From these particles of pure potential energy, a talented mage or higher being can manipulate the potential energy and cause a change in his/her environment, as long as it follows the 3(4) Laws of Thermodynamics.

Last minute note: The welkyn and varla stones seen in Cyrodiil, as described from the Aleyids, as being heavenly stones from the sky. Examining the structure and properties of the two stones, I have concluded that these heavenly meteorites are not some mundane stone turned magical. Instead, they're solidified magicka from the Aetherius. The welkyns are tuned to power a human with magical energy, while the rarer varla stones are tuned to recharge the magical properties of objects.

Also, once one steps out of the grey maybe, all rules previously mentioned are immediately tossed out the window, for the properties of Anu and Padomay are so extreme.

There's a reason they call it magic, it's because it's a stereotypical fantasy word, and people will know what they mean. Magic is undefined in TES, it comes from stars and the sun, but is that light magic? Maybe?
Because magic is just "magic", or they would do something cool with it, is that, if magic comes from aetherius it is reasonable that magic is a blend between totally different kinds of places, and can make weird things happen in either place.
Just theories, pointless theories.

Actually, my theories are actually very understandable, that is if you know the 3(4) laws of thermodynamics and apply a little wiggle room with the whole potential energy bit.

Vivec's... Something calls magic pure chsnge. I see it as the action of converting potential energy to kinetic energy.

Magnus laughs at the laws of thermodynamics.

The man farts his way across the Universe.

Magnus laughs at Mundus. He's an old fart, just ignore him

The problem with this is that magic originates from change, not statis.

No, it originates from possible change, change that won't happen till something does something too it. In other words, potential energy. Plus, things originating from change would have to be close to padomay than anu.

Think of the words "solid change". In most writing and physical properties, solids represent a structured mass of stuff that tends not to do anything, unless acted upon, and even then smashing to solids together won't cause much to happen, other than a mess.

As a physicist, I do feel compelled to point out that there is absolutely nothing correct about this statement or any of the others you have made with regards to physics . Trust me--physicists of all people have thought in great detail what kinds of physical laws you'd have to alter to make fun stuff like this possible. In particular, at the very least you'd have to break the 2nd law (entropy) and probably either the first (conservation of energy), or, locality, constancy of the speed of light, or something exciting like unitarity.

Pointless banter, get to the point


2nd Law of Thermodynamics, according to Atkin's Physical Chemistry, 8th Edition, chapter 3, page 78 states: No process is possible in which the sole result is the absorption of heat from a reservoir and its complete conversion to work. In other words, it's impossible to get to absolute 0 or it's impossible to get 100% work from heat. No where did I say we'd have to get to absolute 0 or turn all form of heat/energy into work. In addition, no where do we break entropy, it's still all around Mundus. Why do spells decay? entropy. Why do things rot? entropy. In a natural state, the universe becomes more random and low energy, and in order to bring something to higher energy, we need to put work in, or something like that. Things don't spontaneously happen out of no where. Magic allows skilled mages to manipulate magic (potential energy) to induce a spontaneous change in the environment. So no, we're not breaking second law.

As for first law, we're not turning nothing into something. Again, magic is used as a something to induce a change. Everything is conserved.

And no where is speed of light mentioned or anything of the sort. In fact, I've only been discussing thermodynamics, not the physical states, Laws, and Theories of Mundus, or anything else outside thermodynamics. At this point, I find that you have been quite rude, and trying to pass off as some higher thinking intellectual. All you have pretty much done is tell me I'm wrong, and not even really back it up. I have in previous threads discussed more in detail about this subject, and addressed the issues with conservation, and entropy. And if you want to know my "credentials" I'm a senior in college working on my chemistry/American Chemical Society degree. I've taken plenty of physics courses and physical chemistry courses, so don't tell me I don't know what I am talking about.

If you want to discuss why it's impossible to warp a creature from Oblivion instantaneously, be my guest, I'm not touching that can of worms. But if you truly want to take down my argument that magic follows thermodynamics, try something else other than saying "You're wrong, because I'm a physicist." Use some magic on us.

Awful defensive, aren't we? If you have to quote a textbook in a discussion with a person with a degree in a subject, I'm sorry, but you've failed. You also quoted the wrong law of thermodynamics--that's the third, not the second [unless perhaps the numbering is not canonical? I suppose it may be different in physics / other languages]. I'm not going to be "specific" because your idea of specific is apparently "fancy words" and really, to be specific I'd need to use, you know, math. Regardless, the point is, you've made literally dozens of implicit physical assumptions that you evidently have no idea you've made, which contradict the laws of physics. You don't need to state (or, evidently, know you've made) assumptions to have made them!

But, really, classically, "magic" is necessarily essentially a "maxwell's demon" type of setup. You can't reorganize things without changing entropy, and arbitrary reorganizations clearly violate the second law of thermodynamics. Exercise for the reader: calculate the transition probability between the states "air" and "air with fireball" (hint: it's really small). Quantum mechanically / relativistically, you've made things much worse, which were mentioned in my previous comment.

If you search through the literature, you can occasionally find published examples of what laws of thermodynamics / the rest of physics things like this would violate, usually under the guise of teaching examples, but the real reason is obviously because it's fun to think about . So if you want to find actual calculations that have no place on a forum showing exactly what details go into thinking about these kinds of things properly, please consult your favorite journal's database.

Alright. I'll concede you are correct if you can prove that what I have been saying is utter crap. Lets see some of your knowledge in action. I WANT you to prove to me that I am wrong by all accounts. Don't shy away from abstract concepts and the like. Beat what I have been saying with a giant sledgehammer, because I've been simplifying a lot of what I've been saying so that most people will understand. I want you to demolish this like no other.

btw, I am right about the 2nd law. Third law says what would happen if something were to reach absolute 0. 2nd law says, other than a lot of things, but that absolute 0 cannot happen, otherwise 100% efficiency is obtainable (along with perpetual motion machines).

Just PM me, we've taken this way off-topic.

Don't make me close this for flaming. Argue decently and in order, not by pulling rank.

Please note that knowledge of real-world physics is not so useful in understanding a fictional world with a somewhat Babylonian cosmology as you might desire it to be. However, calling attempts to explain the Mundus "pointless banter" is not any kind of constructive argument but rather prohibited flaming.

magica actually - to indicate it's different - NOT magic - magic = forumspeak I think

Nice one that CHIM(p) in your sig btw

Looking on it appears that there are micro-particles of magica ... I have no idea what their fundamental properties are but I believe they are cannon. Thing is that as dogsbody has tried to convey there is no evidence to prove that Aetherius and the Grey Maybe are derived from or based on the physics of our own universe - so you have to think in terms of what is rather than what would be needed to change. That makes it sortof a challenge - given you are second-guessing the Devs and they do not want ot make that easy for you in many respects.

For example - if the ES Universe didny start with a big bang ... and if there are no atoms etc ...

We see the ES Universe in a graphic representation and use 'equivalent' nomenclature for 'elements' and such because that is convenient but that does not prove they are the same as our RL elements ...

Not sayng this to discourage you or stuff - just suggesting that you might need to come at this from a totally different angle to get anywheres - i've tried speculating on this too in my simple way - there is a thread here somewheres and a few bits in the Provincial Library I have always intended to take further - tough job that

Something to always keep in mind when dealing with theories (gameworld or real-life) is that just because it doesn't violate anything doesn't mean that it is correct.

Isn't whether real-world physics is useful in this setting the topic that's being discussed? I happen to agree with your point that its not applicable, however naturally any comment you make as a moderator is going to sound like you're "pulling rank" for one side of the discussion - ie, what if that Babylonian cosmology is wrong?

Also a random triviality, the 'pointless banter' bit was directed not towards the attempt to explain Mundus, but the preceding lines concerning qualifications which served as buildup for the attempt - granted, it was innappropriate nonetheless. Note: I'm not contending your moderation, just stating a few particulars.

So the second is obviously broken, but how's the first holding up?

One of the things that really fascinates me about thermodynamics is that physical entropy also exists in information theory. With Szilard's engine, information can transformed into work and a reduction of physical entropy.

This is useful because the Aurbis is a universe of ideas rather then physical matter. If the first law could be violated it would be possible to create new et'Ada without losing the old. Though as far as mythic history goes, this has never been the case.

Entropy shows up in information theory because physics is really dealing with the same thing, it's just information about a physical system you're dealing with.

Energy could go either way. Since most of the laws of physics look mostly the same, I'd say at least that it's usually conserved . You could imagine that, e.g., there's some reservoir of energy out there that everyone draws from when they do magic, and somehow it diffuses back to the reservoir afterwords, or that there are sources and sinks of energy, or that it's just not conserved at all... But from what I've read there seems nothing to me that obviously confirms or contradicts any statement about energy.

whats the difference between two identical ideas and one idea?

If so, neither Lorkhan nor Kagrenac knew how.

Magicka is just like the Force, huh Hellmouth? It radiates from Aetherius and it surrounds us and penetrates us. And certain races are more "sensitive" to it than others, which is why some can use it more efficiently than others. Kinda like how some people can use the Force better than others and some can't use it at all.

:shrug: Not sure how it works in Star Wars, but I guess.