How's this?

The story caught my attention from the very beginning, with the entire "character creation" sequence establishing the world of the Vault. I felt a real idea of what it was like to have been in that Vault, and through the short amount of time I spent there, I felt certain connections to certain characters within that Vault, and felt a true, natural dynamic between them and my character. Then s--- hit the fan in the Vault because Dad did something and I needed to GTFO. I felt a real sense of sadness leaving that world behind, knowing I could never come back (at the time I didn't know that Amata would reach out to me later on), and the first time I walked out into the Capital Wasteland, I felt a true sense of "where the hell am I???"

It was quite an engaging and memorable experience.

And the vaultdweller approach is just a very simple but effective way to explain the world to players new to Fallout.
You can get to ask questions as your character, because your character knows exactly as much as you do about the world you just entered, nothing at all. It wouldn't make sense to have your character ask questions about what ghouls are if he/she has spend his/her life living amongst them.

Bethesda obviously expected to attract a lot of players unfamiliar with fallout. so the whole vault beginning does it job just fine.
I can see why it wouldn't have the same effect on people already familiar with fallout though.

I disagree. I played the original Fallout games and I still felt FO3 did a better job from the start concerning immersion. People can rip on FO3 all they want (it certainly is not perfect) but it comes to a point where people's constant praise of NV comes off as laughable.

In FO3 you live in a small knit Vault community. Your father teaches you how to shoot. You're given a Pip-Boy because everyone is given one. You are a naive vault dweller who has spent their entire life believing you were born there and will die there. You have two friends (Amata and Jonas) and otherwise rely on your father for everything. Then, your father leaves because you've reached an age where you are your own person and he's not directly responsible for you anymore. Jonas is murdered, Amata is beaten and you're forced out by the Overseer. You then travel to Megaton and are more-or-less told your entire life and what your father had told you growing up is a lie.

In NV, you're shot in the head but have no idea why (beyond the package you were delivering, which you find out immediately is a poker chip), miraculously survive, retain all of your mental faculties but develop convenient amnesia for no other reason than to serve as an excuse to not explain what you've been doing for your entire life, where you came from, so forth and so on, are given a Pip-Boy and Vault suit for no other reason than to justify you having them in an entirely contrived fashion and step out of the Doc's office with absolutely no apparent reason to exist whatsoever other than to seek revenge-- which seems pretty ridiculous for a game that emphasizes survival so much but is designed around a deck-of-cards plot device that emphasizes anything but self-preservation.

I seriously do not understand how people consider NV's plot even plausible, much less more immersive than FO3's.

Hehe, well said, and I agree. I definitely think NV deserves the praise it gets but certainly not as a contrasting point to FO3. I didn't really find much difference between the two aside from NV having random characters with more to say. Most of it is fairly meaningless, but its there. That would be about the only reason I'd give the nod to NV in the writing department. Some folks just want to hate FO3 so much that anything that isn't FO3 they'll applaud no matter what. A lot of things I see on the forum that NV gets applauded for I think to myself "this is different from FO3 how?".

So, /shrug. Both games are really good far as I am concerned and that makes me happy because I have two games I can go back and enjoy instead of just one. Now if I could only break my Oblivion addiction and do another run through NV to see a different ending things will be all good.

Well, obviously it's all subjective.

But personally - I don't see how "I wonder why I got shot for a silly casino chip" is any less inherently contrived than "I wonder where my Daddy went to." In Fallout: New Vegas - "revenge" isn't a motivation that's forced on you. If you want to follow the Main Quest, you're going to have to be at least somewhat curious as to why you were shot, and why a platinum chip was worth dying over - but at no point do you have to select revenge as a motivation. To my knowledge, you don't even have to kill Benny. I'm actually pretty sure you can end (in the end) end up helping pretty much everyone that was involved in your attempted murder, if you really wanted to.

In pretty much any videogame RPG where they give you a degree of (generally illusory) freedom - there's going to be an element of contrivance in creating your character and acquiescing to some degree of motivation to follow the MQ. In Fallout 3, you have to be a young advlt from Vault 101. You have to have at least some motivation to find your father (though the reason is left up to you - it inherently has to lead to your character wanting to do that - there's simply no way to "stumble" across the Enclave and become embroiled in Wasteland politics unless you first decide that your character is motivated to rescue your father.)

In Fallout: New Vegas - you have to be a Courier who was shot in the head for his/her package. (ie, in neither game can you be "whoever you want to be -" there are some boundaries even here. I can decide I want to "roleplay" as a Ranger - but the game's not going to recognize that choice.) At some point, you're going to have to make a concession to being at least marginally curious about who shot you, and why. What you do with that curiosity - and the information you uncover, is largely up to you (and certainly a lot more open than Fallout 3's final step in the MQ, I feel.)

I mean, they both require certain concessions on the part of the player. You have to make a character (or the game at least assumes you have) which will fill a certain role. But I really don't see any reason to believe that New Vegas's main plot is any less "realistic" than #3's.

I agree completely. Fallout 3 has the best introduction/chargen i've seen. It is long though, and nowadays i use alternative start mods, or just a vault exit save to skip it.

NV's chargen was all well and good, though i think they could've replaced the Pip-Boy and vault suit with something else, you're not a vault dweller, but it sure looks like that way when you exit the Doc's house.

Also have to agree with Sig-ma on the motivation: "Someone shot you in the head and you barely survived" "Well, i guess i'll get out of here before he tries again", or as Yahtzee said in his Zero Punctuation review "I was supposed to go after a man that shot me in the head, but to me the fact that he shot me in the head was a very good reason to not go after him." (not exact quote).

I'm still not anywhere near the end so i can't judge the rest of the storyline, but most side quests so far seem just as filler as the pointless random dungeons of Fallout 3. The Vaults are well done, though. Except maybe 19, the experiment was as intiguing as ever, but due to being divided in two for the quest it seemed quite small, both in area and story.

You kind of have to. If you read the delivery orders you'd know that if you lose the package for whatever reason you're held responsible. Now unless you want criminal charges filed against you, and to be pursued by bounty hunters for the rest of your life, you'd probably want to get that package back and finish the delivery.



How were the side quests in Fallout 3 any different, honestly?

Yes, there is that. And it provides a motivation other than revenge for my less aggressive characters. Still i feel the personal take of Fallout 3 was better (not talking about the rest of the MQ here, just the premise).



They really weren't. Both have basically the same quests: run around talking to people, and go get something or someone (or kill that someone).

To me, Fallout 3's Vault intro isn't that well "immerse". To start, I am not some a Christian whom only friend is some girl and made a handful of bullies in a small vault that hold only a good 20-30 people. Then there the whole quest line involving finding Daddy and how in it ridiculous form into a rail way line of ya being good and kill all evil. All for "pure" Water. Then there all these "outposts" that exist ingame that made illogical sense as to why they even exist to begin (some don't even have doctors, service, or that many people to be consider an "outpost"). I don't find this any "immersive" or "freedom" in term of background.

That saying, I find New Vegas a bit more "immersive" in term of background of how the pc becomes the Courier, their motive or reason why the PC do what he/she did in the main quest (remember that Killing Benny isn't the only option to deal with him, but all option usually lead to his death anyways).


Revenge for my less aggressive characters? Dead daddy and a bunch of dead Enclave wanna speak with ya on this " revenge for less aggressive characters".


In New Vegas standpoint, doing these quests would at least give ya a good standing of the questgiver's community and isn't done in a very silly matter done like Fallout 3 (Head shot, Ant vs Robot, Megaton blow up, VAMPIRE!!!)

Its amusing how some people believe that anyone who has a critic about FO3's storyline, setting etc etc is immediately ripping on it and then don't elaborate on "why" FO3 was so amazing as they say it was and "why" NV is not as much, all I see are proclemations nothing more really.

I don't, *not* like FO3, I just don't find it as engaging as some people claim it to be I'm not asking for hardcoe proof as to why people think its so awesome, because in the end thats simply and opinion, I simply look for a detailed reason as to why people feel the way they do and all you get is, Because it is or some random reason that has no basis. "its an apocalyptic survival game" no it really isn't there are no survival aspects to the game beyond killing whatever is trying to kill you and Rads that you can easily avoid. "the Story was great" (they dont say why) um ok not really but ok. "its engaging" How? really how is it engaging? "its so big and there is so much to do" like what? shoot stuff? do some quests shoot more stuff? oh freedom.

NV did away with alot of the useless fluff and gave some ground to the game, I remember I had less then 30 percent health, no ammo, an axe, severe dehydration and no sleep (was playing the game like FO3, first time) and I figured ah well I'll just make it back to some town somewhere and get some food no problem.

I was beset upon some canines they got a few lucky hits but kept circling me, so I ran some more not know that I was running AWAY from where I figured I'd find some food, kept running, did some cheap tactics to take out most of the hounds, had 2 left. one ran away and the other one was close to death.

BEWM I died of dehydration.

thats my thought of engaging, never made the mistake again if I could help it.

The dead enclave soldiers were just an unavoidable side effect, said characters let col. Autumn live, after all

Speaking of, can Benny survive?

Which really have no outcome what so ever in that near-failed/hard speech check with Autumn.

Benny can survive in the Legion's camp part of the story. In theory, it is possible (untie his bond or give him a stealthboy and a bobby pin). This usually end up with all the Legion hating ya on that very site (ya in Caesar Tent, btw, so good game).

Yup, I'm just gonna wipe all of 'em before I free Benny this time. He must live!

Your reason for locating your father is absolutely believable-- you want to know why he left, learn whether there is any truth to what Moriarty tells you (in regard to you being born in the vault being a lie and as to what else may be a lie) and you have nothing for you in the Capital Wasteland. You know nothing about the outside world, have no friends, food, shelter or water-- it seems like finding your father would be a pretty big priority, especially considering you've been reliant on him your entire life-- the very same life which up until the vault doors closing behind you has been easy street. Truth is, locating your father may very well be the only reasonable objective at that point in time. Even someone who hated his father would very likely seek him out at that juncture, with due consideration.

As for illogical missions, your father has no idea what is what since leaving the vault (as Three Dog explains). The water purifier may have been a weak plot device (it is certainly a lot stronger than a poker chip however, I'm not sure how that can even really be argued) but the Fallout universe has done anything but stick to accurate science (the G.E.C.K. being the most obvious example), not to mention their technology is entirely different, being tube-based primarily and everyone driving a nuclear powered car-- how does the fact that the water is still radiated not seem plausible? There could a dozen different reasons for that body of water being contaminated (an atom bomb sitting at the bottom of the body of water, high radiation levels from the subway contaminating the water table, so forth and so on). Also, keep in mind, James' intent with the water purifier is to create a fresh water source for everyone. There is quite a bit of purified water around the Capital Wasteland but many people do not have the means of obtaining it, their water purification systems are falling apart (Megaton) and people are killing each other on a daily basis over those water sources.



This I mostly agree with. Please understand I'm speaking purely from a perspective relating to immersion. I don't understand what your motivation would be if not revenge initially however. You want to find the man who shot you in the head and have a friendly chat? I also do not agree with necessarily having to care who shot you. Your average person in the Fallout universe seems to murder no less than ten people before breakfast (usually over really mundane objects such as collectible bottle caps, nuka-cola or tin cans). Seeing as you've lived in the wasteland your entire life, there is no way for you to not rationalize this-- you'd have to be well aware of it.

I will concede the fact that you need to take that leap of faith to play the game (or any game) but for me, personally, the plot was done in such a contrived fashion so early that I'm having a really hard time becoming svcked into the adventure. Fallout 3 at least established suspension of disbelief. New Vegas has a hard time with it throughout.

This is not to say I dislike New Vegas entirely. At its core, it's still a fun game with some interesting quests but I don't think it's really better than FO3. Some of what it does well has to be taken for granted to even provide a refreshing experience from FO3 (such as crafting or hardcoe mode). While it succeeds in some areas as compared to FO3, it fails in others. I definitely do not believe it is so good that it's worthy of the praise it receives (especially from people who aside FO3 as garbage) but yes, I agree-- that much is subjective.

I do have to agree that arguing that a poker chip which somehow magically enables an entire army of robots to go Super Saiyan despite the fact they had those weapons the whole time and apparently couldn't use them for some reason is hardly more logical than a water purifier. Given the SCIENCE! atmosphere of Fallout, a water purifier is hardly an absurd creation; they have laser rifles and fusion reactors, after all.

Both main premises are a bit silly, but that's the whole point. Fallout is not realistic or hard science; it's a black comedy post-apocalyptic universe based off of 50s SCIENCE! and the World of Tomorrow. This is important to keep in mind.

I was under the impression (correct me if I'm wrong) that the AI in the securitrons was outdated, and that the platinum chip was basically a disc carrying the latest version of the AI. In this case, it would be perfectly reasonable for the chip to upgrade the securitrons so that they can use weapons they already have. It's similar to how in the old days you could install a new video card in your PC, but without the latest version of the software you couldn't really use that video card, at least not effectively. The software that the securitrons were using was probably programmed before the hardware design was finalized, so House had to develop an updated version that arrived two centuries late.

This is a good description of (in my opinion, anyway) the biggest weakness of F3's plot. Instead of supporting it, Its entire setup was diametrically opposed to the concept of a free-roaming sandbox style gameplay. It's almost as if Bethesda thought to themselves "We have this vast wasteland with all this places, allowing the player to go to wherever he likes, whenever he likes, now how to best sabotage our entire effort?"
They tried to make you care for your father and insisted your character to have the motivation to find him, presenting the mainquest with a sense of urgency and importance, while at the same time half-heartedly offering some side quests and a big world to explore. Dad left the only home you ever knew and you got tossed out just hours after him; you're right to say that finding him is the only reasonable objective your character would have. How could anyone even contemplate to deliver some letter to Arefu for someone in such a sitation, or help a strange woman with her book? For all I know, my dad couldn't be far ahead, and perhaps is already being torn apart by radscorpions or other wasteland horrors while I'm wasting time searching the Super-Duper Mart.
Some shady man telling about some Mr. Tenpenny. Well, do you know where my dad is? Does Mr. Tenpenny do? No? Then why am I even talking to you? It's the only thing that matters to me; your problems are meaningless to me.

I wanted to do the side-quests in F3, or go out to explore the wasteland, but everytime I did so my immersion was gone entirely, because I had to break character. The mainquest was set up in a linear fashion, constantly reminding you of its importance and urgency, while railroading your character's path and motivation. To me, it felt like the worst possible design decision for a game that was supposedly non-linear and encourages free-roaming play.

This

You know what? I am about as big of a Bethesda really devoted fan as it gets. Morrowind, Oblivion, and Fallout 3 are interchangeably my 3 favorite games of all time (the rest of my "tops" list would be filled up with Metal Gear / Metal Gear Solid and Hitman games, Star Wars: Galaxies original, and then probably some BioWare games like Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic and Dragon Age: Origins)

This is an issue I've had with all 3 of my Bethesda classics. It's not as immersion breaking in Morrowind, where you're not notified really of the importance of your existence in the very beginning, only told to report to Balmora to find Caius Cosades, but at least early on, it can be very immersion breaking to follow up on side quests instead of the main quest.

In Oblivion, the Emperor gives you his jewel, gives you instructions, and then you watch him get slain. His top bodyguard comes and tells you how urgent it is to get the jewel into the right hands. So what happens? You spend some time in the Imperial City, doing some side quests for some local merchants to uncover a plot of someone selling some ill-gotten goods. Or while time is seemingly of the essence as the forces of Oblivion gather and continue their attack against Cyrodiil, you're busy getting involved in guild politics.

Or as you said, in Fallout 3, I need to rush out and find my dad, and find out why he left the Vault and why it was so important that I got kicked out as well, with guns blazing. But as soon as I get into the Wasteland, I'm putting tracking devices in sewer creatures for a crazy lady from Wisconsin.

I mean, it's a video game, and I understand that, so it's not something that bothers me too terribly and it certainly doesn't ruin the experience for me. But it is something that I've noticed with the Bethesda games. Such emphasis put on the severity of the main quest, yet such a focus on exploring and doing things away from that urgent main quest.

You do know what immersion means, correct? I don't understand how this is a problem with the plot either? Perhaps the word you're looking for is pacing?

The main quest certainly feels urgent initially but over time it loses that urgency. The quest for your father takes you all throughout the wasteland and you meet a great deal of people, several of which demand you complete quests before divulging their information. You're never once told you're close to finding your father and you have no real reason to believe that. As you go through the main quest and meet more and more people, you begin to establish yourself and are asked to do all sorts of things. I mean, you realize (for all you know) that your father will come walking into Rivet City at any time or find you, considering Three Dog's broadcast as a reach-out to James, of which, James obviously is aware of since he knows quite a bit of your exploits when you do catch up with him.

Stepping out of the vault it's absolutely crucial you find your father, but as days pass, you meet more and more hardships, it starts to feel pretty reasonable (if not necessary) you'd deviate from that quest. You may never find your father, you will never be able to return to the vault and after a short time (considering you have no resources, food, shelter or anything) you would have to put it on the back-burner to establish yourself. Maybe over time you realize how bad people in the wasteland have it and wish to help them, or perhaps you realize you're readily capable of paving your own way without your father, though you'll always have that question in the back of your head regarding why your father left and what Moriarty told you. It's not like you're told you have 24 hours to find your father or the world explodes.

As the post above me described, I certainly felt what you're describing in Oblivion, but never in FO3.

I never felt I left the vault to go look for my father.
I left the vault because the overseer was going to have me killed if I stayed.
The reason to go looking for dad was because he's the only one you know in this scary world you just entered. And to get some answers out of him maybe. No real urgency there once you start to get a hang of how things work on the outside.

Moriarity also tells you dad is originally from the wasteland and has friends out there. So it's fair to assume he has a better chance of surviving the wastes than you do. Another reason to not just go running after him.

You make my point for me. You know nothing about the outside world, so you're compelled to hunt your father down by trekking through increasingly dangerous missions and locations? That's ridiculous. You're a kid from a vault, you have no combat training.. how exactly is it reasonable for your character to want to throw his life away just to get answers from daddy?

The only reasonable objective? How about not dying? That's the primary objective that would come straight to my mind. "Well [censored], dad got me booted out of my home into a hellhole, now I can... A. Try tracking him down and get myself killed by raiders and super mutants, because all I have is a low caliber pistol that I've never used before today. Or B. Stay in Megaton and try to make a home here." I'd go with B. That's just me, obviously, and maybe a kid fresh out of a vault wouldn't put living very high on the priority list.



You're not sure how that can be argued? I'll demonstrate how. The difference between the fail MacGuffin of Fallout 3 (the water chip from the G.E.C.K.) and the awesome poker chip of New Vegas is that one makes sense in its own context and the other does not. I'll agree that suspension of disbelief will get you a long way, for example the advanced robotics without microprocessors. That isn't the problem. The problem is that within this setting, using a GECK this way still doesn't work. If you try to use the GECK in vault 87, if explains that using the GECK will be fatal to you because it will act as a kind of fertility bomb, rearranging all surrounding matter into a new, fresh landscape. Isn't that a more important use? Isn't breaking a GECK for a water chip kind of... stupid? Yes, yes it is. Further, all this chip grants (in theory, they hadn't tested it) is a source of clean water to the locals in a very low population zone on the east coast.

Perhaps if there isn't enough clean water to live in the capital... leave? Find somewhere with more clean water? Considering it is unlikely any location in the world took as many nukes to the face as D.C. did, they could just pick a direction and start walking and have better water. Maybe take that GECK with them and use it for its intended purpose and not break it with a hammer for one part? No, no, that would actually make sense.

Let's now look at the platinum chip. The chip is actually introduced early, but is not the central driving force of your interest in the plot (thus, it is not a MacGuffin), so it doesn't feel like a contrivance. The driving force behind the plot is first revenge/curiousity, and then politics and choosing a side in the imminent clash. The platinum chip is far more sensible as a plot device because they explain what it does and why it's important, and the explanation is actually reasonable.

It isn't a magical savior device, like in Fallout 3, but it is an item of immense importance to one man, because it vastly increases his grip on the region. This actually makes sense, especially considering the second half of the plot is a struggle for power between several factions. So it serves as both an adequate reason for someone to shoot you and a very good way to thread act one and act two together in the narrative. This logic actually works, and the writing behind it actually got some thought. Robert House designed the chip, was unlucky, and now is willing to do nearly anything to attain the key to fulfilling his plans. So in every way I can think of, the platinum chip is a far, far better story device.

Oh, and you don't have to BREAK A GECK to get it. Just saying.



That isn't the impression the Fallout universe leaves as a whole, it's the impression Fallout 3 leaves. There is a lot of killing in New Vegas, but there are far more peaceful quests and usually the "good" factions will actually need a good reason to kill someone.. badly programmed reactions to stealing a pencil notwithstanding.



The leap required for Fallout 3 is far, far larger. You have to just wave away huge, huge flaws in logic that are throughout both the story and the setting (no sources of food, for example) to enjoy Fallout 3. Once you do, you also have to wave away bad dialogue, and the fact that there isn't even much of the bad dialogue around to find. After you do that, everything is peachy and Fallout 3 is awesome... but those are some big hurdles to jump.

The more I think about the difference between the two games, Vegas is the one where "Playing Bad" seems to be a key design element in the Main quest (wanna be the bar-steward, tell everyone to go to heck and take over, fine!), rather than in Fo3 where its an afterthought (oh just allow him to poision everyone at the end, Evil Ending box ticked). Kudos on Obsidian on actually creating true "Evil" paths that don't involve an evil character having to "break character" just to get past some roadblock (eg- finding dad, getting the GECK for him)

"For some reason"? They explained the reason very, very clearly. They lacked the software drivers necessary. Try using a mouse you have without a mouse driver. You have the mouse, it's connected to your computer, and it's useless unless you have a driver that can utilize it.

The platinum chip containing software drivers makes far more sense in the Fallout setting than the purifier. This is the Fallout setting, where microprocessing was just being explored right before the great war happened. The platinum chip was just completed the day before the great war, commissioned by the CEO of the biggest robotics and computer company in the world. This is all consistent with known knowledge about the Fallout lore.

I think the water purifer is, too, actually. The problem I have with the purifier is that you have to break a GECK to get one. Oh, and you population could just move elsewhere.

To be fair though, I'm suprised that an apparent robotics genius like House couldn't come up with some work around or write a new driver (maybe he's a hardware man, not a code-monkey).