I do have to lecture you cause your are making [censored] up! Not everyone in LA died.

Where is the Vault in the Den, New Reno, San Fransisco, Klamith? Where did the people of DC come from? Remember no one left the Vaults of DC sain. Where did all the people of the Midwest come from? Where did the people of New Vegas come from? Where did the people of HH come from? Where did the 87 or so tribes Caesar took over come from? By your logic they would have only come from vaults.

You do this all the time, we present you with facts clear as day and you reject it. Also 700,000 people is after 200 years. Not 700,000 people right after a nuclear war!

Out of 50 million people for a tens of thousands to a couple hundred thousand surviving isn't impossible.

Surviving in a urban area like LA after multiple nukes hit, would be no easy task....... If you didn't get incinerated, or crushed by debris, the chaos of trying to get out would be unbelievable. Which is why the game says they all died except some lucky ones who made it to the demo vault.

And I'm not saying I'm smart, you dumb, I'm saying that disc is propaganda or a typo.

Emphasis in bold (my edit.) Some posts have been wished into the cornfield, and it looks like this is where things started to take a turn for the worse. I believe what evlbastrd was attempting to say was that he was not saying "I'm smart and you are dumb," etc.

So let's move on from there.

This is the internet. You will often find people who do not agree with you. And this is a videogame forum - healthy debate is sort of the primary thing that goes on around here.

Keep it civil, folks.

How did we end up with two of these?

Look. I'm not denying what the holodisc says.

I'm saying if game develops throw something in that does not make sense, it is your right, to question it. And, there are two pieces of canon, that contradict one another.

But I played FO 1. And I'm playing it again right now. And if someone, game designer, gonna tell me the small communities I saw in FO 1, of like 1000-5000 people turned into some huge 700,000 empire of NCR, ya.. I am going to question that, because it doesn't make sense.

So, is it propaganda? A joke? A mistake?

Why isn't Megaton a 10,000 pop city 200 years later? Or Rivet City?

Why are the Boomers not 25k? Or the tribes on the strip? Or the tribes in broken hearts?

Maybe cuz it not easy to grow out in the wastes outside of a vault? Or bunker.

Oops - I'd split some posts out, but forgot to select our Trash forum to send it to. (Long story on the process involved for removing posts as a mod - suffice it to say that if you forget to cross your T's and dot your I's before clicking the right button, silly things like this tend to happen.)

It is just your opinion, to everyone else it is fact

A fact that makes no sense. You visit three of the city states in FO1.

80 years later, those three plus 2 grows to 700,000.

If that doesn't raise an eyebrow...

So then if BoS all of a sudden has 100,000 soldiers or Enclave fly down from the moon with a million, when would you question things that happen in a game?

Note, my numbers, I said there are 8,000 people in Shady Sands in FO2. It feels like maybe.. 200 people in FO1?

Same with Junktown. And the Hub feels like maybe 2-3k. The BoS bunker, feels bigger than Shady Sands and Junktown combined.

So, I gave extremely high population estimates. By my Shady Sands estimate, there would be about 4k people in Shady Sands in FO1.

Being generous, I come up with a number 650,000 short. That is, a big difference... why would these 650,000 people, thriving somewhere, join the NCR? Heck, they outnumber them 10-1. It just doesn't make sense, based upon what I see in FO1.

It doesn't make sense to you because you are getting alot of things wrong. Trying to explain to you everything about why you got it wrong will only result in going in endless circles with the both of us doing this ==>

As you just said it is a fact, just like 2+2=4 and the sky is blue are facts. So lets just leave it at that.

Edit: Also sorry for the Hostility. Serioulsy I am trying to work on it.

Sorry, I don't have time to read all the replies.

I remember the Fallout Wiki saying Shady Sands itself was around 600,000 people. I used to think the NCR would be at about a million, until I was told this. I think five million is just a bit much. We really have to consider the amount of vaults in the region as a primary factor, remembering that Vaults would eventually begin to compact themselves unless they resort to inbreeding (going from Vault 101, here).

From a quick and rough guess, there's about 11 known vaults in the NCR's territory (as I'm not American and I'm unfamiliar with what states are nearby California this list is poor). Forgetting any possibility of loss of life, that's roughly 11,000 people. Combine that with a few non-Vault survivors you'll probably have 12-13,000 as the vaults begin to open. The vaults I used are in California and Nevada, so that's plenty of time for the inhabitants to populate up until the game starts.

Around the start of NV, the NCR have expanded a whole heap. Being one of the most advanced settlements in the Waste, Shady Sands seems likely to have increased to such a large population (through migrants, births, etc).

I'm not sure if that actually made sense, so good luck reading it.

tl;dr 2.5 million+ seems unrealistic.

Maybe you should take the time to read the posts.

Here are some important high-lights you missed.

First: It is fact that NCR at the time of 2241 had 700,000. Not just the city of Shady Sands but all of NCR territory at that time.

Second: Vault's had very little to do with people surviving the Great War. The amount of survivors of the Great war that survived thanks to the Vaults would be a very small fraction. The Vaults weren't meant to save people. They were designed as social experiments.

Third: Since 2241 (Now 2281) the NCR has expanded to all of California, Baja Mexico, Southern Oregon, and parts of Nevada (Reno and Las Vegas).

Fourth: Thanks to a high standard of living, clean water, fresh food, law and order, medical care and science, the population would have grown alot in that 40 years since 2241 on top of the expansion. The population could easily be 2.5 to 3 million or more.

If you think about how before the Great War California had about 50 million people and now 200 years after the nuclear war, its only about 2 to 3 million people. That is very realistic.

I read most of them, and scanned through the rest. I just addressed some major points I noticed.

http://www.gamesas.com/topic/1363672-new-vegas-population-ncr-force-size/page__view__findpost__p__20578626

Okay, wanted me to prove it... well, a little research goes a long ways.

Read this. Scroll to NCR.

Important things: capital of NCR: population 3,000++

It clearly states the holodisc in FO2 as propaganda.

Footnote clearly states the insane population as exaggeration.

Thank you.

http://www.duckandcover.cx/content.php?id=74

It says "The NCR capitol (Pop: 3000+)" Its talking about Shady Sands, not all of NCR.

Ya no kidding. Which is about right, and LESS than the high estimate I gave Shady Sands. I didn't say 3,000 was the entire population, but used the 3k to show my numbers are ACCURATE(and high), for the point I was making.

It also says the disc is propaganda and the pop numbers exaggerated.

Sooooo, I think using logic, my 50k NCR, and with the vault guide of tens of thousands, is a pretty good idea of NCR population.

Which makes the capital about 1/10th the pop of NCR, instead of 1/200th

Where do you see that because I see this:

"
HOW BIG IS NCR?
Founded eighty years ago, the NCR is now comprised of the states of Shady, Los Angeles, Maxson, Hub, and Dayglow. Approximately 700,000 citizens are pleased to call NCR home.3"

"
The Hard Sell: NCR has a decent marketing and public relations department, and they are constantly sending couriers out into the wastes to nail up NCR posters or disseminate NCR propaganda."

That part doesn't prove that the number is wrong. It also says "Or disseminate NCR propaganda" it doesn't say it is propaganda.

There's about 40 years between Fallout 2 and New Vegas. The total pop of the NCR being 700,000 (from the source evlbastard put forward) around Fallout 2 could have grown to at least two million. The world population grow by a billion in around 125 years, I think 1.3 million in forty is acceptable, and I'm now finding myself agreeing that the population could be in excess of 4 million.

You went from 2 to 4 million in just the California area of the United States to a world population of a billion? I don't get that math but oh well. Its also 700,000 in 164 years not 125 years.

It is clearly stated in Fallout 2 that the population of NCR is 700,000. Evilbastd is trying to say that isn't a fact. It is a fact. All he has is a line from a non-canon source that says " NCR posters or disseminate NCR propaganda"

It doesn't say that it is for a fact nothing but propaganda. All he has now is a reason to suspect it is propaganda. Nothing to say that it is. So it would be a endless back and forth. Which in the end is kind of pointless because the Fallout Bible at best is semi-canon and it still doesn't prove 100% that the number 700,000 is a bunch of bull.

Also saying that the Capital of NCR only has 3000 so therefore the rest of NCR's population would be smaller. Most of the Capitals of American states are small cities, with small populations. The biggest city with the biggest population doesn't automatically make it the capital city.

Dude, read the frigging footnote to 3. What, do I have to go to the Glow for you?

Edit: my droid had a devil if a time to copy this:

3 These population figures are exaggerated, though the population of NCR and all its states is pretty impressive. It has been known tovary according to plot purposes.

And before any semi-canon or bible garbage, this isn't the timeline or from stuff outside, before, or after the game but direct comment on in game stuff and clarification. From the designers.

Noooo. I am nit saying the pop of NCR is 700,00. That number is propaganda and a lie, exaggeration.

I put the FO2 NCR pop at about 50k-60k and about double that in NV.

"3 These population figures are exaggerated, though the population of NCR and all its states is pretty impressive. It has been known tovary according to plot purposes."

Doesn't say how much it is exaggerated. If you are saying 50-60 thousand for all of NCR and that says 700,000. That would be worthy of a "Totally pulled out of their ass exaggerated."

Guessing "Tovary" is to vary?" I see that as "Well we can't show a city with tens of thousands of people" but the cities do have alot more people than shown.

Also the Fallout Bible isn't canon, at best semi-canon. The Game still says 700,000 and the game out ranks the bible.

Yes. By using logic. Now, I gave high estimates in my logic. Said Shady Sands be at most 8k in FO2.

Obviously, I was accurate in my high estimate as the population is 3000+.

What I'm saying is my reasoning is sound, based upon populations encoutered in FO1. Yes, it is a wild exaggeration, but propaganda generally is.

I was comparing. I meant that growing from 700,000 to around 2,000,000 in 40 years is reasonable, considering the real world's population grow a billion in around 125 years.

Its still your opinion based on how you see things. The Fallout bible isn't even canon. Chris Avellone said information from it shouldn't be considered canon unless Bethesda says it is. Also you are assuming that Shady Sands would be the largest city with the biggest population. Those things don't make a city the capital. Just look at State capitals in America. Many are often small cities with small populations.

60K and 700,000K is a huge exaggeration and would have been noted by a man like Chris Avellone.

Edit: comment removed because it was uncalled for.