Edit:I made a new build,I will put the old one in Spoilers if anyone wants to use it anyways.


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Ok,i'm gonna post my new build,which I use perks from this mod below,do not worry,I will explain all the perks:

http://newvegasnexus.com/downloads/file.php?id=35979



Specials:
Strenght-----5(+1 From Implant,+2 From Reinforced Spine)
Perception--6(+1 From Implant,+1 from Lonesome Road)
Endurance--6(+1 From Implant)
Charisma----1
Intelligence-6
Agility--------8(+1 From Implant,+1 From Small Frame)
Luck----------8(+1 From Implant,+1 From Lucky Shades

Traits:
Small Frame(+1 Agility,Limbs are crippled more easily)
KamiKaze(+10 Action Points,-2 DT,canceled by the implant that raises your DT by 4)

Perks:
Level 2 - Special Training - +1 to Perception.
Level 4 - Educated - +2 Skill Points each time we level up
Level 6 - Comprehension - Skill Magazines now give you 2X the normal Bonus,and Skill Books give you +1 Skill Point.
Level 8 - Light Touch - +5% Crit Hit while wearing Light Armor
Level 10 - Shotgun Surgeon - 10 DT is reduced from enemies when using Shotguns
Level 12 - And Stay Back - Each Shotgun Pellet has 10% chance to Knock the Enemy Down
Level 14 - Jury Rigging - May repair items with roughly similar ones.
Level 16 - Better Criticals - Crit Hits do +50% Damage
Level 18 - Action Boy - +15 Action Points
Level 20 - Neutral Party (From ''More Perks Mod'')Nobody can mimic your logical and objective reasoning. With this perk, you are more charismatic as long as you maintain your neutral karma
Level 22 - Piercing Strike - Negate 15 DT when using Melee or Unarmed
Level 24 - Finesse - +5% Critical Chance
Level 26 - Pyromaniac - 50% More damage with Fire Weapons
Level 28 - Super Slam - Unarmed Hits have 15% chance of Knocking the enemy down
Level 30 - Ninja - +15% (15 Luck skill) critical chance with melee and unarmed weapons, +25% damage with melee/unarmed sneak attack criticals
Level 32 - Chemist - Chems and Healing Items last 50% More(For turbo,buffout and other good Chems use,Chems will last 83% More if I have Day Tripper,which is pretty easy to get,and turbo will last A LOT if used with Fast Times,so on when using turbo,it will last (50% + 33% + 50%) more,making it an incredible drug,it will also help with my next perk.
Level 34 - Them's Good Eating - Each Living Enemy has 50% chance of having one to three thin red paste or blood sausage,which heal a lot,making my character a tank since it heals over time,also they are both affected by the Chemist,making them UltraPotent,and we also have Implant Y - 7 that Makes each healing item give you a little Health and Action Points Bonus,and with Cardiac Arrest,that increases the effect of Healing items by more 50%.
Level 36 - Paralyzing Palm - Each Unarmed Vats hit has a chance to paralyze enemies from 30 Seconds.
Level 38 - Nerves of Steel - 20% Faster Action Points Regeneration.
Level 40 - Slayer - +30% Attack Speed with Unarmed and Melee.
Level 42 - Meltdown (Enemies Killed with Energy Weapons will Explode like a plasma grenade with less range,the explosion is quite deally(will explain this later)
Level 44 - Overclocked (From More Perks Mod) - Your energy weapons perform +10% better. In other words, laser weapons aim more accurately, plasma weapons do more damage, and pyromaniac weapons attack faster.
Level 46 - Laser Commander - You do an extra 15% damage and have a 10% extra chance to critically hit with any laser weapon.
Level 48 - Grim Reaper's Sprint - A kill in V.A.T.S. restores 20 AP immediately.
Level 50 - Ain't Like That Now - Karma reset to 0, +25% AP regeneration rate, +20% attack speed, immunity to critical hits, 20% reduction in AP cost for all weapons.

Skills:3 Levels Getting 13 points,46 getting 15.
(3 . 13) + (46 . 15)
39 + 690
729 Skill Points
Starting Stats:
Barter - 24 - Tagged
Energy Weapons - 23
Explosives - 23
Guns - 40 - Tagged
Lockpick - 23
Medicine - 19
Melee Weapons - 23
Repair - 19
Science - 19
Sneak - 25
Speech - 24 - Tagged
Survival - 21
Unarmed - 21

(These Values already include Implants and Other Special Bonuses).

729 Skill Points
There are also 4 Skill Books found in the Mojave for each Skill.

Barter - 24 -16 from books = 76 - 16 = 60
Energy Weapons - 23
Explosives - 23
Guns - 100 -16 from Books = (60 - 16) = 44 points
Lockpick - 23 - 16 from Books = 77 - 16 = 61 Points
Medicine - 19 - 16 from Books = 71 - 16 = 55 Points (we just 90 for Shaman)
Melee Weapons - 23
Repair - 19 - 16 from books = 71 - 16 = 55 Points(We just want 90 for Jury Rigging)
Science - 19
Sneak - 25
Speech - 24 - 16 from Books = 76 Points - 16 = 60
Survival - 21 - 16 from Books = 69 - 16 = 53 (we just want 90 for Shaman)
Unarmed - 21 - 16 from Books = 79 - 16 = 63

Points used so far = 451
729 - 451 = 178 Spare Points

Barter - 24 -16 from books = 76 - 16 = 60 - 18(Neutral Party) = 42
Energy Weapons - 23 - 16 from books = 77 - 16 = 61
Explosives - 23 - 16 from Books = 39
Guns - 100 -16 from Books = (60 - 16) = 44 points
Lockpick - 23 - 16 from Books = 77 - 16 = 61 Points
Medicine - 19 - 16 from Books = 71 - 16 = 55 Points (we just 90 for Shaman)
Melee Weapons - 23 - 16 from books = 77 - 16 = 61
Repair - 19 - 16 from books = 71 - 16 = 55 Points(We just want 90 for Jury Rigging)
Science - 19 - 16 from books = 81 - 16 = 75
Sneak - 25 - 16 from books = 75 - 16 = 59
Speech - 24 - 16 from Books = 76 Points - 16 = 60 -18(Neutral Party) = 42
Survival - 21 - 16 from Books = 69 - 16 = 53 (we just want 90 for Shaman)
Unarmed - 21 - 16 from Books = 79 - 16 = 63

Used Points - 680
729 - 680 = 49 Points Remaining
Points:
Barter - 100
Energy Weapons - 100
Guns - 100
Lockpick - 100
Medicine - 90 + 10 = 100 - 39 Remaining
Melee Weapons - 100
Repair - 90 + 10 = 100 - 29 Remaining
Science - 100
Sneak - 100
Speech - 100
Survival - 90 +10 = 100 - 19 Remaining
Unarmed - 100
Explosives - 39 + 19 = 58 - 0 Remaining.


And there we go,this is our Pure Vats Build,let me explain some stuff,first of all this build has two themes,the first one is Vats,the second one is Pyromaniac,you probaly didn't really notice but all the weapons I will use will be Boosted by the Pyromaniac Perk.
Look at my Weapon List:

Riot Shotgun Fully Armed with Dragon Breath Shells,at first they do just 90% damage from a normal shell,plus a Fire Effect,but with the Pyromaniac,it will have +45% power,135% Damage and fire effect?Yes Please!

Gehenna.It becomes AWESOME with all the perks,Pyromaniac increases it damage by 21 DAM,I would also have all the attack Speed perks,so it will reach 4.48 attacks per second,with jury rigging I can repair it with almost anything,and it also weights almost nothing!.

Sonic Emitter - Tarantula.It is also affected by Pyromaniac Perk,giving it +30 Damage,so it becomes my ultimate weapon against robots,doing high damage and having EMP,and when this weapon critsit burns enemies,good thing with Laser Commander,10 Luck,Finesse,Set Lasers for Fun,Ulysses duster,1st Recon Beret...

Saturnite Fist Super-heated.It does not have a high Critical Multiplier or any extra effect,but with the perks I have it will attack very quickly,it also gains +27.5 damage from Pyromaniac,and it can also set enemies on very,oh and high crit damage!

Cleansing Flame - Another Incredible weapon to have with pyromaniac,longer range than the normal Flamer,will burn everyone to the ground.When used with Optimized Flamer Fuel it does 30% more Damage and Negates 5 Points of DT,some people just want to watch the World BURN!

Anti Material Rifle (GRA).First of all,lets take a look at the modifications:

Anti-materiel rifle custom bolt - Increases rate of fire by 20%.
Anti-materiel rifle suppressor - Reduces noise made by the weapon, but does not silence it.
Anti-materiel rifle carbon fiber parts - Reduces weight by 7.

The DAM is already high,110,it has a Long Range Scope,and is useful for Stealth Kills since it is silenced,it is affect by the pyromaniac Perk,but just the flame damage from .50 MG, incendiary,still good,anyways,also has the lowest spread in game,making it incredbly useful.

Red Victory Grenade Rifle - Even trough I do not have a single perk benefiting explosives,it is a very good rifle when it comes to variations,it can shot Incendiary,Plasma,EMP,the incendiary one is affected directly by Pyromaniac,and it is always good to have some potent explosives with you!

Satchel Charges - The best Mine in game,high damage even with no perks,and it explodes very quickly,they are an easy way to deal with deathclaws quickly,I just have to put 3 in the ground to kill one.The sstraategy is simple,lay 3 on the ground,take out the Supresor from Anti Material Rifle,shot the deathclaw,it will come at me quickly,and then we just watch it fly over 50 feet in the air,very funny situation,also Ed-E can make 3 each day,and there are lots of them in the divide.

Flare Gun - Low damage,but another way to deal with Deathclaws when they are close and I can't apply the last Strategy,I can simply shot one and then I have 10 Seconds to kill them with any other weapon,it also weighs almost nothing so I can easily use it.

Elijah's Advanced LAER - Fully Charged with Over Charges,it will degrade VERY quickly since it has just 80 Hp,but it has a 1.5 Crit Multiplier,so it will frequently crit,since I have all the perks that add Crit Chance to it,Vats will be also awesome with it,since there are two in game,I will give one to Veronica or Arcade,loaded with Max Charges,it will never degrade and I will always have someone to Exterminate enemies quickly.

Pew Pew - One of my favorite Weapons,but I need 50 Start bottle caps to get,this is why it is my favorite,it is funny,supports my favorite company,Sunset Sansaparilla and has a 2.5 Crit Multiplier

Compliance Regulator - Very weak,but the paralysis is always good,when using it on vats I will almost always crit,the ap cost also isn't too high,2 shots are enough to paralyze almost anything.

MF Hyperbreeder Alpha - High Hp,High Crit Chance,No Ammo usage,takes just 0.5 seconds to charge,great for weak enemies!

Pulse Gun - Robots Fear my Pulse Gun!It is pretty good when making a second trip to the Big Mt.

Holorifle - Deadly,when with all the modifications is as powerful as a Gauss Rifle,Efficient,one Microfusion Cell per Shot,the Modifications make it awesome;

Holorifle focus optics, increase the holorifle's damage by 25.
Holorifle advanced calibration, reduces the holorifle's spread by 0.25.
Holorifle reinforced components, improves the maximum condition of the holorifle by 50.

Deadly,Efficient,Low Spread,Additional Damage,similar to the Tesla Cannon,Long Range Scope,let the Killing Start!

YCS/186 - More powerful than the Anti Material Rifle,can be obtained easily,and will do nicely once you get a high number of Max Charges,this is pretty easy since NONE of my weapons use Eletron Charge Packs,so I can just convert them all,still,optimized rounds may be more efficient since the rate of Efficient is 3 > 1 and Max charges are 5 > 1.

Multiplas Rifle - AKA Plasma Shotgun,note that I download a mod that adds Energy Shotguns to the list of Weapons in And Stay Back and Shotgun Surgeon,3 projectiles,each having a normal crit chance and 35 DAM,but the spread of this weapon is ''too damn high'' making you miss even that medium range.

Tri-Beam Laser Rifle (GRA) - Another Energy Shotgun,now affected by both Shotgun Surgeon and Laser Commander,it also have a 1.5 Crit Chance and each project does about 22 DAM,but the spread is lower and the rate of fire is higher,making it pretty good when listed with the modifications below:

Tri-beam laser rifle focus optics - Increases damage by 3 per beam
Tri-beam laser rifle heavy duty capacitor - Increases weapon condition by 200%
Tri-beam laser rifle hi-capacity terminal - Increases ammunition capacity by 24.

The user Athenau brought up some calculations about the Tri Beam Laser Rifle,which I will paste in here.
Let's see what a maxed out crit build can do with a fully modded GRA tri-beam.

(10 luck + built to destroy + finesse + ulysses's duster + 1st recon beret) x 1.5 crit multiplier + laser commander + light touch + set lasers for fun = (10+3+5+5+5)*1.5 + 10+5+4 = 61% critical chance

Base damage: 25x3 = 75
Crit damage: 33 (with better criticals) x 1.83 crits per shot (on average, not strictly correct but it converges to this in the limit as the number of shots fired goes to infinity) = 60.39
Total damage before perk and ammo multipliers: 135.39

Total damage: 135.39 x 1.15 (laser commander) x 1.3 (optimized MFC) = 202.41 damage per shot.

Total dps: 202.41x2.73 = 552.58 dps

Ratslayer - Easily Obtainble,Scope,Low Spread,Silenced,it is just perfect for low level,and it looks awesome!Also the crit multiplier is 5X,so each hit means critical!

Sleepytyme - Silenced and Improved Holdout Weapon,my choice when going to casinos.

Knock-Knock - It isn't as good as Gehenna,but can be obtained early(even at level 8),and has high DAM and DPS.

Special Perks:
Full Maintenance from Raul/Better Healing from Arcade
Enhaced Sensors from ED-E
Beautiful Beatdown - AP costs for unarmed attacks are reduced by 10%.
Fast Times - Turbo's effects last +50% longer
Day Tripper - The effects of addictive Chems last 33% longer.
Lord Death - Deal an extra +4% damage to all enemies
Melee Hacker - +10% melee weapon attack speed.
Set Lasers for Fun - ALL energy weapons gain an extra +4% chance to get a critical hit.
Tough Guy - Take 20% less limb damage.
Khan Trick - Unarmed Skills
Legion Assault - Unarmed Skills
Ranger Takedown - Unarmed Skills
Scribe Counter - Unarmed Skills
Big Brained - Head cannot be crippled, +10% resistance to chem addiction, +1 DT if your DT < 10
Cardiac Arrest - 50% poison resistance, Healing items boosted by 50%, Robots have -50% crit chance
Reinforced Spine - Strength+2, DT+2
Implant M-5 - Your crouched movement speed is increased by 20%
Implant Y-7 - +5 health and +2 restored action points through the consumption of food
Lonesome Road - +10% damage and +10% V.A.T.S. hit chance when you have no companions
Scourge of the East - +1 SPECIAL point, NCR Fame, Caesar's Legion Infamy
Camarader-E - ED-E repairs 25% weapon condition once per day
ED-E produces energy or microfusion cells once per day(Can unlock Flamer Fuel and Satchel Charges via Dialog with ED-E)
+2 DT
+5 beam weapon damage
+5% V.A.T.S. hit chance

Chances of Crit Hitting:
Gear:
1st Recon Beret +5%
Ulysses Duster +5%
Finesse +5%
Light Touch +5%
10 Luk + 10%
30%
True Police Stories - More 10%

With a Laser Weapon - 44% (Laser Commander and Set Lasers for Fun)(49%Using Vats)(59% Using Vats and True Police Stories)
With Melee or Unarmed Weapons - 45% (Ninja)(50% Using Vats)(60% Using Vats and True Police Stories)

I always put 10 in intelligence because you get more skill points but that's just my own personal thing.

............are you serious?...no Better Criticals? right off the bat, you should know that a shotgun player relies on Luck and High critical hits to dish out the payload (the more the pellets, the more likely you will get a critical every shot.) You might think that's not much, but every pellet has a chance of getting a critical, which brings in Better Criticals.

Example:
Dinner Bell does 10.7 damage per pellet.
it fires 7 projectiles in a neat Circle.(which btw, you should really focus on getting Trigger Discipline for your shotguns.)
now, it has a critical chance of x1, however, its critical damage is 11 PER PELLET (as normal, so 11+10.7=21.7 damage on one pellet, with better criticals, you add 5.5 points of damage, which means techinically one pellet can kill a raider with ease).

Finally, what you said isn't true. I mean if your not adding VATS that is, but a true shotgun player who would just heavily invest in the mighty shotgun would get everything that benefits it. Math Wrath, Action Boy, Commando. Those help believe it or not since it increases your Critical chance by 15%.

If you don't want to make your game funny with Wild Wasteland, then take Built To Destroy, and Trigger Discipline. Increases your critical chance by 3%, therefore giving you a bigger chance in kicking a$$


remember: the mighty shotgun relies on criticals dude. No Criticals=a dead player.

your favorite shotguns will probably be Dinner Bell or Big Boomer. Dinner Bell relies on good damage and Critical damage (quality) while Big Boomer relies on Pellets and critical Chance (quantity)

I probaly overlooked it when making the build,anyways you don't really need Vats perks,Slug Rounds can easily Replace Commando,Shotguns already have low Ap cost,this with a high Agility,so Math Wrack would give me an extra Shot when full action points,also,the count for Action Points is 65 + (Agility x3) so on with 9 Agility(That much I have on the build) would be 65 + 27,an acceptable 92 Action Points,I would rather Invest one more point in Agility,giving me extra 2 points,but also boosting my Draw/Holster/Running/Reloading Speed.I also use Riot Shotgun alternating on Dragon Breath,Slug and Magnum.

Edit:Added Both Better criticals and Action Boy,I get better criticals right off the bat and Action boy just later(level 38)

Criticals matter less for shotguns. Consider your example: base crit damage equal to pellet damage means that this is essentially equivalent to a weapon with a 1x critical multiplier whose crit damage is equal to its base damage, i.e most guns--the fact that you're firing multiple pellets at once doesn't change the equation. Also, if you use slug rounds (which you should against high DT targets) the crappy crit damage makes crit boosts worthless.

How often do you actually use slugs, especially with flechette rounds being an option now. And even if you are using slugs, a critical hit will still do more damage, so it isn't useless. I'm with Zerginfestor, a high crit build will help a lot with shotgun based combat.

not true. Period. Mutilple pellets have a x1 critical chance, yes, but with the games highest critical chance modifier (over 30%), each pellet has 30% chance of getting criticals, and if a single pellet gets a critical, that pellet literally acts like a full shotgun blast. Since with a large chance of getting a critical (you may think 30% isn't much, but you'd be surprised how many times you get a critical hit by just a few shots). Just because each pellet has more then 30% chance of getting a critical, doesn't mean it doesn't change the equation. In fact it actually helps seeing as your using quantity in your favor (Hunting shotgun has 7 pellets, +30% chance on each pellet, which then you used VATS for a over 45% critical bonus. You basically have 7 chances for a critical shot, which then doubles the damage on each critical.) What's even funnier is that most people would think "oh, 45% isn't much" but their wrong. Fallout New Vegas as well as Fallout 3 are both pretty forgiving when it comes to a critical chance like that :/. Plus if you haven't read his perks, Shotgun Surgeon takes 10DT off the target instantly, therefore the highest DT you would face is...-reads-....5 DT. In other words, you could go with slugs to negate the 5DT, or just go with regular ammo, shoot, get a crit, and watch as the Deathclaw before you turns to bloody mist, or falls down, crippled (Stay Back!+7 pellets->14 pellets=you can kill anyone in the entire waste without a single problem).

Trust me, Criticals is the way to go with the wise path of the Shotgun.

Off-sorta-Topic:

if you went 10 Luck in Fallout 3, got Spiked Knuckles, and got Wasteland Guru, you basically have 13% critical chance, yet I was getting critical hits every few punches :/, then I took Finesse for a 18% critical, THEN THINGS WENT INTO SUPER FUN LEMME TELL YA! lmao, those raiders and super Mutants never saw me coming. Then I got really sinister, made a Deathclaw Gauntlet v3 (which turns my 18% chance into 90%, not even Ninja's x1.15% critical chance is included), lets just say the fun never end. The same goes with shotguns bud.

No, this is wrong. Consider two weapons: a shotgun that does 60 base damage divided over 6 pellets with 10 crit damage, firing once per second, and a rifle that does 10 damage per shot with 10 crit damage firing 6 times per second. For a given crit chance both weapons will have identical dps. The relative benefit of more crit chance depends only on the ratio of damage per hit (per pellet in the case of a shotgun) to crit damage--the number of pellets is irrelevant. The reason you think it matters is because Bethesda screwed up the scaling in FO3, shotguns had crit damage balanced against their total damage as opposed to per pellet damage which made them way too powerful when they critted.

The Riot gun for example does a crit damage of 10, PER PELLET (it wouldn't make sense if you got a crit hit on a Deathclaw or Yao Guai and it just popped out 10 damage, now would it?), increasing their 9.6 damage up to 19.6 on that single pellet. Unless you have the GECK and you have proof that the Vault is wrong about shotguns in F3 AND F:NV, please let us know. Because I'm not sure about you, but the crits basically show off high amount of damage, just like the Metal Blaster did back in F3, and just how the Tri-Beam laser rifle is now. Nothing really changed, since their using the same mechanics for the shotguns (why in the hell would they suddenly make a unique chance for Tri-Beam Laser Rifles and giving shotguns a totally different critical damage mechanic? it doesn't make sense.) Still, I would like proof of this, so I can correct myself.

Damage Ratio does mean something, yes, but can you explain how someone with a High Critical build hits a enemy NPC with a shotgun, and manages to get a critical shot but only with a few pellets through calculations while the others did not? This basically proves the point that the more pellets, the more likely you will get criticals.

the same mechanic can be pointed out on And Stay Back! perk, which gives you a measly 10% chance to knockdown an enemy...PER PELLET, and yet when you look on the Vault and the talkpages on the perk, you will see how greatly appreciated the perk is towards shotgun users, such as using the Riot Shotgun.

I mean does anyone even WONDER why every shotgun has a crit. chance of x1? because if it was just x2, a High Crit player would always get a critical chance no matter what on any of the pellets, and even then, the x1 didn't really help in stopping that.

Another reason in why they made the Crit damage 'so low' is because Obsidian and Bethesda decide that the critical damage goes towards each pellet. This is another reason why the chance is x1, A shotgun with 7 pellets inside literally has a high chance in doing some serious damage.

What it seems to be (in my opinion anyways) that it looks like what your saying is this: even if your Luck is 10, and therefore have a 10% chance with each pellet in a shotgun, you will never get a critical hit if one pellet doesn't do it, or won't do much.

Just do the damn crit build.

Shotguns have issues piercing through armor, so those crits are the saving grace that let you do so. Crit damage per pellet means you take the crit damage x 7, or in the Big Boomer's case, x14. Pretty massive.

What I have been trying to say for the last past minutes in my posts. BUT NO, I guess I was wrong with my crit damage. each pellet has a critical chance of doing a critical damage, which you add on the critical damage as always, thus you get more out of the critical build.

Anyways, @Athenau, why don't you PM Gunny and ask how the calculations work on shotguns and crits, and see who's correct? I plan to myself to see if my calculations are wrong, since I learned it from him quickly :/

Perhaps a concrete example will help:

Riot Shotgun w standard 12 gauge rounds: (65x1.2)/7 = 11.14 damage per pellet
Crit damage: 10x1.2=12

Non-crit damage per pellet: 11.14
Crit damage per pellet: 23.14

Ratio crit/non crit: 2.08

Brush gun:
Base damage: 75
Crit damage: 75

Non-crit damage: 75
Crit damage (total): 150

Ratio crit/non crit: 2

Most guns have a 1:1 ratio between base and crit damage, meaning that a crit will be double damage (2.5x damage with better criticals). The riot shotgun is the same, except that once you start using slugs your crit damage goes into the toilet. Like I said, the only thing that matters is the ratio between the base damage per hit (per pellet) and the crit damage.

NOW I see what you mean. But, why would you use the Slug? I mean I understand that when it comes to accuracy, you will no doubt need it, and that since it's a single projectile, all that crit bonuses and Stay Back! perks die off quickly, but why use slug against Deathclaws and units you know you need to push back and need all that critical stopping power? cmon man!

You'd use slugs because slugs are the best way to pierce heavy armor(and the extra accuracy is nice):

Let's assume a DT 20 enemy. With shotgun surgeon that's 10 DT. Let's assume you have ~30% crit chance (roughly where a maxed out crit build with a 1x multiplier would put you) and better criticals. That means each pellet will do on average 11.14 + 12*1.5*.3 = 16.54, or 6.54 damage (45.78 total) after armor. You've just lost 60% of your damage right there.

With slugs you'd do 65 + 10*1.5*.3 = 69.5 damage before armor and 59.4 after, only a 15% reduction.

Longknife makes a good point about crit damage helping you pierce armor, it does, but this only matters for the range between 11 and 18 DT where regular shells outperform slugs (again, with a fully tooled out crit build). Anything heavier and slugs are the only way to go. Anything lighter and shotgun surgeon negates it entirely.

What is the strongest shotgun shell to use in vanilla and then with GRA?

Okay guys - Athenau, Zerginfestor:

I've edited a couple of your posts (both of you,) and a couple more have gone away. You've both been complicit in escalating this discussion needlessly. We can do without the little personal jibes that started at the beginning of this thread - because as we can now see, it ends with moderator intervention, even though it started out small.

Sorry to call both of you out, but it's 2am here, I'm only up for a few minutes while my heartburn goes away, and I'm far too tired to be writing a series of advice PMs when one post ought to do the trick. :wave:

Anyway, take a deep breath, calm down, and remember that there's no reason to take things to a personal level when discussing a bunch of mathematics.

Have a nice night!

Ok dudes,you guys think that the crit build is better,so I would like to present the definitive Crit Gear.

10 Luck - 10% Crit
1st Recon Beret - 5%
Light Touch - 5%
Finesse - 5%
Ulysses' duster - 5%

Ok,30% Crit,A little question here,4/0 Buck Rounds have a smaller number of Pellets(4),but with a 30% crit chance One pellet would always crit,and since each 4/0 Buck has more Damage,wouldn't that be more efficient?
Also +5% from vats,and since my build includes Math Wrath,Action Boy and Ain't Like That Now,and since shotguns have low AP cost,this is a great Build.

Same here, you end up with 17 or something.

Cheers

Ok,just to explain this, with my build,at level 50,I will have 100 Less Skill Points than with 10 Int,my build uses just Unarmed and Shotgun Skills,so High Int would be a waste,the only difference is that with 10 Int I would max Energy Weapons and put some points of melee,skills that I don't use much,but with my current build I even bother about these 2 Skills,and I get more 4 Special Points than you.


Edit:
About Armor Piercing Skills:I really do not bother with that,this is why I have Unarmed,Shotgun Build does not mean my only weapon is shotgun.Here's my LoadOut

Primary:Riot Shotgun alternating with Dragon Breath,Slug,Flecchetes and Magnum
Secondary:Two Step Goodbye,which will always crit since it has a 4X crit multiplayer and I have more than 25% crit chance
The Rest:Fist of Rawr when dealing with Stronger Foes,so I can just Cripple their Limbs
Anti Material Rifle(GRA) with all the modifications for Long Range Combat.

Gotta add this to the main post

You'd definitely want to avoid slugs for And Stay Back though, which is incredibly practical and will save your life when your damage output isn't able to kill the enemy in a couple shots. I see a lot of people trying to calculate out which type of ammo has the best damage output. That's great and all but seriously, And Stay Back is a lifesaver.

And don't bother with 10 INT. You can max out ~6 skills with 4 INT, and in the end it's perks-not skill points- that make you a master of a skill type.

A shotgun blast only counts as one round in VATS, so you can only get one chance to crit., and even If you do crit. you'll only get one small crit. bonus. Hence, shotguns for Crits. svck in VATS.

Sorry to burst your bubble.

EDIT: With a 5 INT, Educated, and Comprehension, I managed to max out. I still had plenty of skill books to go as well.

From my understanding (and I hope i'm not too late to the party) there's 2 things I would like to reinforce on shotgun damage:

1. The crit damage on slugs is screwed. While Josh had the projectile number changed to 1 for slugs, which means that the listed geck damage is not divided by the 7 or 14 pellets from buckshot, he did not (or could not) have it change the crit damage to x7 (or x14). I think all he needed to do was add an ammo effect that multiplied the crit damage, which probably needed a small amount of scripting support to work, but alas, he didn't. I asked him about it once, but he ignored the question.

2. As I understand it, shotgun crits are all or nothing. I believe there's only one "dice roll" for a crit, and then that applies to all the pellets that hit. Each pellet does not roll for a crit independantly. The only variable is how many pellets hit. But if you get a crit, all the ones that hit get the crit applied. All damage calculations I've used assume all pellet hit damage. Factoring in variable number of pellet hits in the calculations would just be onerous.

To sum up, don't use slugs on high crit builds (or when hoping for a crit) and shove Big Boomer in your enemy's face on high crit builds.

That said, back to my level 50 Argonian rogue and the mess that the Fallout wiki has become...........ta-ta.

-Gunny

I run with only 7 pts in INT (I've done 6 before, and that worked just fine too), and it gives me 16 skill pts per level after bringing It up to 8 pts with the implant. I don't notice any great loss in character capability due to not getting that 17th point to allot each time, and having two extra SPECIAL points to put in more important stats from the start- that is nice. I used to run with the 'OMG you gotta have maxed INT for all the yummy extra still points!' crowd, but I wised up. It just isn't any big deal- really. Four DLC's and 20 more levels made it a total non-issue.

And while they're laying on their back trying to shake their wits out of their shorts, you can empty the rest of your shells into their helpless form. Calculate THAT! Mwuhahahahaaa!!!!

Ok,you guys did NOT get it,I already said this once and I will say it one time more,I have an Unarmed Build,so I don't really need to rely on ''And Stay Back'' the ''Fist of North Rawr'' has a longer reach(1.3 AKA 30% more)
the critical multiplier is good(2X) and it does bonus Limb Damage,also,I can always start a combat with Unarmed,use ''Ranger Takedown'',the enemy will fall on the ground,switch to shotgun,and clip their sorry ass!

EDIT:

I downloaded a mod that add Non-Overpowered perks(the only one,lol) called ''More Perks'' I will post my build with it Later,here is the link for the nexus if you want to see it.

http://newvegasnexus.com/downloads/file.php?id=35979