[RELz] nGCD v2.0

Post » Wed Sep 01, 2010 5:46 pm

EXAMPLE to check whether vanilla or modded progress-rate is enabled/running
(the mod named Progress is not meant here!)

Create (or use an existing) character: IMPORTANT!
(check my http://www.linklost.com/occ/?Bishop&Bishop&0&2&5&1&0&1&0&1&4&5&6&14&15 class regarding to Wizardry 8)

  • Race: Breton
  • six: Male
  • Specialization: Magic
  • Major skill: Mysticism

Mysticism will be 40 then.

Visit the http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Oblivion:Increasing_Skills#Acquiring_Experience_Points page.

As you can see each Mysticism spell cast gives 3 experience points.
A raise from level 40 -> 41 will cost 0.25883 x 40 ^ 1.5 = 65.479 x 0.45 (for specialization AND major skill) = 29.47 experience points.
Divided by 3 experience points given each spell cast, you should level up the skill in no more than 10 spell casts of Minor Life Detection (Mysticism) in _VANILLA_ Oblivion.

-

In my OOO (FCOM) default configuration I have slower progress (3x slower), so I need ~ 30 spell casts to level Mysticism from 40 to 41. Also some rough vary due to fractions. Practically it is about 25-26x
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Miguel
 
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Post » Wed Sep 01, 2010 2:00 pm

The Progress defaults are identical to OOO except for the magic skills (which are mostly a bit slower, to account for MBSP), so yes, there's a significant slowdown there compared to Vanilla -- about 3x. That's probably what you're seeing.
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Connie Thomas
 
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Post » Wed Sep 01, 2010 1:04 pm

however, there is no slow leveling esp nor was there anything during the FCOM process that would have prompted so. can anyone who uses FCOM confirm OOO alters skill progression without asking you? if so I may have to download a mod that resets it back to vanilla and then load ngcd and progress after it?


Confirmed. See http://www.gamesas.com/index.php?/topic/1129545-relz-ngcd-v20/page__view__findpost__p__16654086 if installed as stated in the http://devnull.sweetdanger.net/fcominstall.html
... Download and install OOO 1.33 in EXE or OMOD-ready format (select the "Full" version and ignore the extra options).  ...

Somewhere while omod installation is asked the leveling... I must have overseen that and chose default (which is 3x slower then)... pity.. well but i had fun for 6 hrs yet, soon reaching level 3 :D
So, to be clear, 3x slower is DEFAULT for OOO, no other mod after it changes that, so there's no extra .esp for it or any other level-rate.

I don't know yet how to revert that level rate, though, but I'll find out.. (or someone else)

EDIT: maybe it's simple one rate .esp copied and enabled after OOO (best with BOSS to get right order)
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abi
 
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Post » Wed Sep 01, 2010 6:37 pm

ahh that was way too much math for me cooper lol but i get the idea thanks :D

so will progress overwrite the OOO rates? i opened the PDF for OOO and found better details and it seems since i used the OMOD version of FULL i did not choose ANY rate plugins therefor it said it automatically subjects you to whatever the OOO default rates were. i just want to make sure im not getting double the slowdown from both OOO and progress...

i also have all the optionals for progress like u mentioned MBSP/racial/GSD. GSD may be whats making my skill ups so slow? all i know is, i have been level one after about 15 hours of playtime in the character and im still not even half way to level 2. is this normal?
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Alexandra Louise Taylor
 
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Post » Thu Sep 02, 2010 1:57 am

ahh that was way too much math for me cooper lol but i get the idea thanks :D

so will progress overwrite the OOO rates? i opened the PDF for OOO and found better details and it seems since i used the OMOD version of FULL i did not choose ANY rate plugins therefor it said it automatically subjects you to whatever the OOO default rates were. i just want to make sure im not getting double the slowdown from both OOO and progress...

i also have all the optionals for progress like u mentioned MBSP/racial/GSD. GSD may be whats making my skill ups so slow? all i know is, i have been level one after about 15 hours of playtime in the character and im still not even half way to level 2. is this normal?


For the mod named Progress I don't know. But I found a solution to revert OOO (FCOM) to vanilla skill-level-rates:
Copy the OOO-Level_Stock.esp from the OOO-ADD-ONS folder to your Oblivion/Data directory and enable it after OOO and after nGCD, so BOSS told me. (for you maybe rough load order: OOO, nGCD, OOO-Level_Stock.esp, then the Progress.esp).
btw I'm using Wrye Bash.

-

Now I'm trying to get 2x slower... vanilla is too fast for my taste. I might try the OOO included Bofra stuff. Progress is too much number dealing for me i think. :P

EDIT: My FCOM modlist + few addons in order

Spoiler

Active Mod Files:?  00 Oblivion.esm ?  01 All Natural Base.esm [Version 1.0] ?  02 Francesco's Leveled Creatures-Items Mod.esm ?  03 Francesco's Optional New Items Add-On.esm ?  04 Oscuro's_Oblivion_Overhaul.esm [Version 1.34] ?  05 Mart's Monster Mod.esm [Version 3.7b1] ?  06 FCOM_Convergence.esm [Version 0.9.9a7] ?  07 Unofficial Oblivion Patch.esp [Version 3.2.0] ?  08 DLCShiveringIsles.esp ?  09 Unofficial Shivering Isles Patch.esp [Version 1.4.0] ?  0A Francesco's Optional Chance of Stronger Bosses.esp ?  0B Francesco's Optional Chance of Stronger Enemies.esp ?  0C Francesco's Optional Chance of More Enemies.esp ?  0D Francesco's Optional Leveled Guards.esp ?  0E FCOM_Francescos.esp [Version 0.9.9] ?  0F FCOM_FrancescosItemsAddOn.esp [Version 0.9.9] ?  10 FCOM_FrancescosNamedBosses.esp [Version 0.9.9] ?  11 Natural_Habitat_by_Max_Tael.esp ?  12 All Natural.esp [Version 1.0] ?  13 All Natural - SI.esp [Version 1.0] ?  14 All Natural - Real Lights.esp [Version 1.0] ?  15 FOV Modifier.esp ?  16 VanityCameraSmoother.esp ?  17 Display Stats.esp [Version 1.3] ?  18 ImprovedSigns.esp ?  19 Bob's Armory Oblivion.esp ?  1A Cheat Bob's Armory Oblivion.esp ?  1B FCOM_BobsArmory.esp [Version 0.9.9] ?  1C Oblivion WarCry EV.esp ?  1D FCOM_WarCry.esp [Version 0.9.9] ?  1E Oscuro's_Oblivion_Overhaul.esp [Version 1.34]?  1F OOO-Water_Weeds.esp [Version 1.33] ?  20 FCOM_Convergence.esp [Version 0.9.9] ?  21 FCOM_RealSwords.esp [Version 0.9.9] ?  22 OOO-WaterFish.esp [Version 1.34] ?  23 Knights.esp ?  24 Harvest [Flora].esp [Version 3.0.0] ?  25 Harvest [Flora] - Shivering Isles.esp [Version 3.0.0] ?  26 nGCD.esp ?  27 nGCD Skeleton Key.esp ?  28 OOO-Level_Stock.esp [Version 1.33]?  29 Francesco's day lenght rescale 1-24.esp ?  ? ? All Natural - Indoor Weather Filter For Mods.esp [Version 1.0] ?  2A Bashed Patch, 0.esp 


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Steve Bates
 
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Post » Wed Sep 01, 2010 10:04 pm

will progress overwrite the OOO rates?

Yes. ;)
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joeK
 
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Post » Wed Sep 01, 2010 6:55 pm

Yes. ;)


To be real sure I would nevertheless load the changes to stock first, so there's the factor 1.0 again to startover with any further mod (Progress). As long as the readme of Progress does NOT state other usage...
The loading order of OOO-Level_Stock.esp and Progress will be the important key then.

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Damian Parsons
 
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Post » Wed Sep 01, 2010 8:10 pm

Progress explicitly and unavoidably overwrites all other mods, regardless of load order. It sets the relevant values from a script, based on its initialization file; anything already there is ignored and irrelevant.

If you want to start from baseline, use the supplied Vanilla-settings .ini file and edit to taste. It's pretty straightforward.

...hey, why am I still awake? :P
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Ray
 
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Post » Wed Sep 01, 2010 9:08 pm

Progress explicitly and unavoidably overwrites all other mods, regardless of load order. It sets the relevant values from a script, based on its initialization file; anything already there is ignored and irrelevant.

If you want to start from baseline, use the supplied Vanilla-settings .ini file and edit to taste. It's pretty straightforward.

...hey, why am I still awake? :P


Sounds good! Finally sure then hehe, so I'd better use it. Didn't know yet this is your work, too lol

Well then... you might have eaten some Restore or Fortify Fatigue ingredients, but better go to bed, watch your http://www.tesnexus.com/downloads/file.php?id=20850! :D
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-__^
 
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Post » Thu Sep 02, 2010 1:27 am

I have to ask if the health derivation here is correct: http://www.abload.de/img/oblivion2010-11-1019-0fuuy.jpg - Level 5, Endurance 49, Willpower 56 -> Health 109??

http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Oblivion:Endurance#Health_Gains is very similar though: 45 x 2 + 4 x 4.5 = 108

How's Health calculated with nGCD (along with Progress)?
You say in the readme, Endurance & Willpower can affect Health calculation, but it's dependent on the specialization?

  • Combat = Endurance
  • Stealth = Endurance & Willpower
  • Magic = Willpower

Right? What formula?
Because my combat specialized http://www.linklost.com/occ/?Paladin&Holy%20Paladin&0&2&2&0&5&6&1&5&8&15&18&19&20 doesn't recalculate health with buffed Willpower items. (which of course is correct, if my assume above is right)


Regards
Jed

EDIT: Hmm, I guess it's ALL skill derivation if I look at nGCDMatrix.ini...? So Health and Magicka is Skill based, NOT Attribute based? The Attributes "only" affect skills then? And of course encumbrance, damage multipliers, resistance etc.
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Betsy Humpledink
 
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Post » Wed Sep 01, 2010 11:45 am

You say in the readme, Endurance & Willpower can affect Health calculation

Whoops! That's based on old defaults and should be ignored. :P I updated the readme for 2.0 but didn't re-write it from scratch, and obviously missed that bit. Thanks for catching it.

Health, Magicka pool and Magicka regeneration rate are based on lots of things. Those are probably the most complex calculations in nGCD. Also the most configurable, so I'll stick to a defaults-only explanation here; if you're interested, you should be able to figure the rest out from browsing nGCDMatrix.ini.

There are two main components to each of these secondary attributes: the skill component, and the attribute component. The attribute component is easy: it's your main attributes (Strength through Luck). Not all of them by default, of course; but the relevant values are taken directly off your character sheet.

The skill component is the bit you see defined at the top of each section in the matrix -- for Health, it's 0.62 from each point in combat skills, 0.24 from stealth skills, and 0.14 from magic skills. (Incidentally: the ratios of these numbers are derived from the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golden_ratio.) Note that the three values total up to 1. This means that, assuming 100-cap, the maximum possible total is 700. Before anything else is done, the total "skill influence pool" is divided by 700, making it a decimal value representing where you are relative to the cap. This is the actual skill component as used in nGCD's formulas.

Health is the most heavily skill-based of the secondary attributes, and the only one that uses the skill component all by itself (using the SkillFlatMult setting). At cap, you'll have 267 Health from skills alone -- which is important if your Endurance is drained to zero. (This replaces the old Willpower component you saw mentioned in the readme.) You'll also have 4.33 * Endurance * SkillComponent -- again at cap, this is 433 more for a total of 700. But of course, while discussions of cap values make the math easier, any real character will have much lower totals and they won't be an even spread of Combat, Magic and Stealth. The reason you're seeing 109 Health is that you're a Combat-heavy character -- you've just got a big skill component! Notably, you'll also get a much larger Health gain from Fortify Endurance effects than an equally-skilled mage. (If you use a mod that causes Endurance to affect your fatigue regeneration, this can be a very nice benefit.)

Magicka pool and regeneration (per second) are calculated in essentially the same way, except you also get some benefit from raw attributes regardless of skill. nGCD also uses Personality as a component in both, granting less Magicka than Intelligence and less regeneration than Willpower. The size of your Magicka pool is only weakly influenced by skills; regeneration rate moreso, but still much less than Health. (Fatigue, of course, is the one with no skill influence at all -- and nGCD doesn't touch it.) There's also some variation in which skills affect pool vs. regen -- magic skills are obviously #1 in both cases (0.62), but you get no pool at all from combat skills, and a fair amount (0.38) from stealth. The skill influence for regeneration is divided in the same sections as Health, but rearranged: 0.62 Magic, 0.24 Combat, 0.14 Stealth.

Clearer, or have I just stirred up the mud? :D
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Bird
 
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Post » Wed Sep 01, 2010 5:02 pm

I finally got around to updating my main character to nGCD 2.0 from previous RC.

The character was lvl 21 and I took screen shots of skills and stats pre uninstall of RC, Without RC and then with 2.0. The skills and stats stayed the same throughout (I use the full Progress and all progress plugins).

The character level jumped 12 higher to lvl 33. :blink:

I recalled that I had adjusted the ini file called SkillSpread and now called matrix - to match a more KCAS/RL wheel approach, so I may just copy and paste those settings back into the newer Matrix.ini

Is there any other settings I should be looking at though with regard to skill/level calculation? I really don't want him to be level 33 yet.

thanks
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hannah sillery
 
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Post » Wed Sep 01, 2010 7:57 pm

Is there any other settings I should be looking at though with regard to skill/level calculation?

This is the #1 FAQ in the thread. ;)

The default of 1.0 for nGCD.fLevelFactor, first setting in nGCDCalc.ini, seems to be too high. Until I sit down and do some extra math, I'm recommending people change it to 0.75 -- that gives the same max level as RC# versions of nGCD, and will drop your level to ~24, much closer to where it was.

The other definitely bad default is LevelCanDecrease -- disallowing that by default has turned out to have piles of annoying interactions with other mods. Best to enable that option, in the main nGCD.ini.
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hannah sillery
 
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Post » Thu Sep 02, 2010 12:08 am

This is the #1 FAQ in the thread. ;)

The other definitely bad default is LevelCanDecrease -- disallowing that by default has turned out to have piles of annoying interactions with other mods. Best to enable that option, in the main nGCD.ini.
Thanks - true I didn't comb over each post ... but I did roll up my sleeves and try to compare settings between the two versions.

The net result was a headache. Will set can decrease - I think RL allows that too if I'm not mistaken.

[edit] and the result is lvl 25 - I may drop to .70 though.

thanks again.
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Christine
 
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Post » Thu Sep 02, 2010 12:54 am

I didn't comb over each post

Most people don't, and on page six I can't really blame you. :) That info has been added to the first post.
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Sabrina garzotto
 
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Post » Thu Sep 02, 2010 1:53 am

Is it at all possible that armor and other items that boost skills can be read wrongly and further boost level?

Here is how I updated:
1. Had my character remove all armor and magical stat/skill boosting items, healed at altar, ran UOP stat restore.
2. saved
3. Removed the old nGCD RC.
4. Loaded game and saved.
5. Installed new nGCD 2.2.
6. Loaded game and saved.

Basic clean save procedure. After the posts above I repeated steps 6 after the settings you suggested. This left the character at level 25 with around 30% to go till next level. I then made a few saves and armored and buffed the character with all his boosting gear and regalia (some of which boost stats and skills).

The problem - now I load and the character is suddenly lvl 27 and 12% to next lvl.

The only thing I've done since then is update All Natural - hadn't even touched the ini again. What has changed is the skill boosting gear. I think nGCD does not differentiate or something weird is happening.
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CArlos BArrera
 
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Post » Wed Sep 01, 2010 10:25 pm

The relevant code hasn't changed since RC versions, so I don't think this is a detection issue. Is any of that stat boosting gear from a mod, with a variable effect or a script? Could you be gaining any other miscellaneous mod bonuses? Did you pick up the Skeleton Key?

Incidentally, UOP stat restore should be deprecated for users with OBSE as there's a much more reliable way to do it. I'm not sure anyone's actually packaged it into a script, though, so it may currently be console-only. Hum. Let me address that.
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Matt Fletcher
 
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Post » Wed Sep 01, 2010 6:08 pm

The relevant code hasn't changed since RC versions, so I don't think this is a detection issue. Is any of that stat boosting gear from a mod, with a variable effect or a script? Could you be gaining any other miscellaneous mod bonuses? Did you pick up the Skeleton Key?

Incidentally, UOP stat restore should be deprecated for users with OBSE as there's a much more reliable way to do it. I'm not sure anyone's actually packaged it into a script, though, so it may currently be console-only. Hum. Let me address that.

Well yeah I'd say the stat/skill bonuses come from mods, but all of them I can't say.

Several from Armamentarium, bg2408's Integration, several what I think are vanilla pieces of magic Jewelry (which could be mod altered), and a few sigil stone enchanted pieces as well (and even the sigil stones are mod altered). I use Kuertee's http://www.tesnexus.com/downloads/file.php?id=23861 and the character has Race Balancing birthsign of ritual (a lot of magicka in other words) so he can wear enough rings and necklaces to make Mr. T Jealous.

In other words tracking down where they are each from would be a task (that I cannot complete soon) - I don't think any are script run or significantly different from how most items are enchanted - and if there is a difference I guess I wouldn't know even how to discover it.

No skeleton key or ogam book.

I'm unfamiliar with the console command that is better.

Tomorrow or next day I will try again to disrobe save and then reload to see if it give me different levels. Maybe then with only half gear.
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Nathan Maughan
 
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Post » Thu Sep 02, 2010 1:01 am

http://www.gamesas.com/index.php?showtopic=1139904 Now you don't need to know the console command. :)
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naana
 
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Post » Wed Sep 01, 2010 1:23 pm

when using elys uncapper, do i set the simple uncapper to 1 or can i just edit these to 200? and also the global slowdown for progress to 200 and the maxceilign to 4200.

; SkillMax is the highest skill value nGCD expects.
; !!! Overriden by nGCD.bSimpleUncap (set to 200)
set nGCD.iSkillMax to 200 ; 100

; AttrMax is the highest attribute value nGCD will generate from skills.
; !!! Overriden by nGCD.bSimpleUncap (set to 200)
set nGCD.iAttrMax to 200 ; 100

; AttrCap is the highest attribute nGCD will allow, superceding AttrMax.
; !!! Overriden by nGCD.bSimpleUncap (set to 200)
set nGCD.iAttrCap to 200 ; 100

; SkillMax and AttrMax normally vary based on individual Fortify/Drain ability
; effects, to maintain consistent attribute and level caps between characters.
; These options disable that adjustment. (Good if you use an uncapper.)
; !!! Overriden by nGCD.bSimpleUncap (set to 1)
set nGCD.bSkillMaxIgnoresAbilities to 0 ; 1
set nGCD.bAttrMaxIgnoresAbilities to 0 ; 1
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Kortniie Dumont
 
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Post » Wed Sep 01, 2010 11:52 am

when using elys uncapper, do i set the simple uncapper to 1 or can i just edit these to 200?

Those edits are exactly what Simple Uncapper does. :)
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Jonathan Montero
 
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Post » Thu Sep 02, 2010 12:07 am

haha yeah makes sense :P thats eventually what i ended up doing. i was afraid that it would alter my leveling to much but it doesnt really feel any different. my character lost like 20 encumbrance though.
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No Name
 
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Post » Wed Sep 01, 2010 12:07 pm

I most probably missed out on something basic but most times I try to buy training I get the a massage that I can't train more that level. I have lots of training sessions saved and have not trained for several levels.
I run nGCD, OOO and Elys uncapper (and a few others but nothing that should interfere).

Cheers! Oom
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NEGRO
 
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Post » Wed Sep 01, 2010 12:51 pm

Oom, when you go to train, what are the numbers for sessions used and sessions remaining?

Also, have you edited any of the training settings in nGCD's configuration?
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Isaiah Burdeau
 
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Post » Wed Sep 01, 2010 9:37 pm

I think I found a bug:

When I create a new character, then exit into the main menu and create another character all of the stats are set to zero after a few seconds and the console shows a lot of ngcd errors.
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Michelle Chau
 
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