[RELz] nGCD v2.0 : IV - Oblivion

» Wed Sep 01, 2010 6:46 pm

I have an old save of a character that only had oblivion.esm + uop, and one mod.

I made a new save with just the base patches, Progress, nGCD, DLC SI + Patch+refurb.

When I load up the character with nGCD/Progress active, he jumps from level 3 to level 5, which is an undesirable result.

What can I do to stop this?

This is my current list I am growing slowly from the ground up with this original character that I found a save with minimal foundation (clean) to grow on. Something in my mods I am currently hiding is causing a game lockup so I had to do this.

Spoiler

Active Mod Files:00  Oblivion.esm01  Jog_X_Mod.esm02  Cobl Main.esm  [Version 1.72]03  BetterMusicSystem.esm04  Progress.esm  [Version 2.2]05  Unofficial Oblivion Patch.esp  [Version 3.3.1]06  Oblivion Citadel Door Fix.esp07  DLCShiveringIsles.esp08  Unofficial Shivering Isles Patch.esp  [Version 1.4.0]09  SM Plugin Refurbish - SI.esp  [Version 1.30]0A  Enhanced Economy.esp  [Version 4.3.1]0B  Thieves Arsenal.esp++  Thieves_Arsenal_Patch_033010.esp0C  Cobl Glue+Cobl Si esp Merged Plugin.esp  [Version 1.72]++  Cobl Tweaks.esp  [Version 1.44]0D  thievery.esp0E  Enhanced Economy - House prices.esp  [Version 1.0]0F  nGCD.esp10  nGCD Oghma Infinium.esp++  nGCD Skeleton Key.esp11  Progress Merged Plugins.esp  [Version 2.0]++  Cobl Filter Late MERGE ONLY.esp  [Version 1.53]12  Bashed Patch, 0.esp

» Wed Sep 01, 2010 9:51 pm

Okay... previous versions of nGCD used a brute-force method of preventing vanilla level-ups (blank menu and icon files) which was removed with v2, and if you didn't do a clean-save the new scripted method might not have triggered. I just did another test of the new system, and I'm pretty confident this was a one-time glitch.

If your other characters seem fine, I wouldn't worry. But if things start looking weird, just clean-save from wherever you are and it should be OK.

Hi tèjon,

seems I bungled up something on one char, got lots of weird things happening, had to delete. But on a new char or properly cleaned save 2.02 seems to WAD.

Regards, Haldir

» Wed Sep 01, 2010 8:28 pm

As I commented to Tekuromoto above, I completely re-wrote the level determination code and the current defaults give extra levels to most characters.

If you feel your level is too high and you want to reduce it, open nGCDCalc.ini and edit the very first setting: nGCD.fLevelFactor. It's a simple multiplier. For instance if you want your level to be about 75% of what it is, set it to 0.75, etc. If your save has the higher level, you'll have to enable the LevelCanDecrease option in nGCD.ini for this to take effect. (Of course, you can disable it afterwards.)

If you're willing to try out the new defaults and give feedback, I'd very much appreciate it! It's quite possible that I should lower the default, but I'd rather ship a default that's too hard than one that's too easy. If it's too easy, most people will just play with it and never complain. If it's too hard, people will yell at me and I'll learn something!

But I need to hear from people who have actually played with it, at least a little bit. Just seeing that the number went up doesn't really mean anything. Are you totally getting your ass kicked, or is it still manageable?

» Wed Sep 01, 2010 6:16 pm

Well, I've noticed that I can't play without enabling deleveling in the ini, otherwise my level permanently increases by about 50% (lvl 12-->19). Either this was from worn enchantments enhancing abilities, or spells doing the same, or alters or even something else (I've got FCOM & Race rebalancing on this joy-ride) it made everything way, way, WAY too tough. I expect a certain amount of being one-hit, but it was getting ridiculous.

» Wed Sep 01, 2010 10:34 am

I think I should change the default on that option. It was added to prevent spurious resets of your training sessions when using what's now "training mode 1" -- but that was before I came up with "training mode 0" and made that default. I think as it stands, unless you're using the per-level training reset, you might as well allow levels to drop. There are too many potentially poor interactions with other mods, and it gets in the way of experimentation with some of the other settings.

» Wed Sep 01, 2010 5:40 pm

I think I should change the default on that option. It was added to prevent spurious resets of your training sessions when using what's now "training mode 1" -- but that was before I came up with "training mode 0" and made that default. I think as it stands, unless you're using the per-level training reset, you might as well allow levels to drop. There are too many potentially poor interactions with other mods, and it gets in the way of experimentation with some of the other settings.

Well, I have played with it a while, and it is really challenging as it stands now. Level 22 spawns with a full FCOM install are a little bit overwhelming, but manageable with the right tactics. I'm just afraid it will be to difficult with a new character. I will try some more before I report back and if I get the time I will try a new character.

On the bug side, I also must use the delevel option, otherwise I get completely insane levels for some reason like well above 15000 and in one case over 35000.

I'm appending my load order if you want it:

Spoiler

Active Mod Files:00  Oblivion.esm01  TR_OoT_Main.esm02  Windfall.esm03  All Natural Base.esm  [Version 1.0]04  Francesco's Leveled Creatures-Items Mod.esm  [Version 4.5bSI]05  Francesco's Optional New Items Add-On.esm  [Version 4.5bSI]06  Cobl Main.esm  [Version 1.73]07  Harvest[Containers].esm08  Oscuro's_Oblivion_Overhaul.esm  [Version 1.34]09  Mart's Monster Mod.esm  [Version 3.7b3p3]0A  FCOM_Convergence.esm  [Version 0.9.9MB3]0B  Armamentarium.esm  [Version 1.35]0C  Artifacts.esm  [Version 1.1]0D  Kvatch Rebuilt.esm0E  Better Cities Resources.esm0F  Progress.esm  [Version 2.2]10  NNWAEMaster.esm11  CM Partners.esm12  UndiesUnderneath.esm13  Unofficial Oblivion Patch.esp  [Version 3.3.2]14  DLCShiveringIsles.esp15  Unofficial Shivering Isles Patch.esp  [Version 1.4.0]16  SM Plugin Refurbish - SI.esp  [Version 1.30]17  Better Cities .esp18  Francesco's Optional Chance of Stronger Bosses.esp19  Francesco's Optional Chance of Stronger Enemies.esp1A  Francesco's Optional Chance of More Enemies.esp1B  Francesco's Optional Leveled Quests-SI only.esp1C  Francesco's Optional Leveled Guards.esp++  FCOM_Francescos.esp  [Version 0.9.9]++  FCOM_FrancescosItemsAddOn.esp  [Version 0.9.9]1D  FCOM_FrancescosNamedBosses.esp  [Version 0.9.9]1E  Fran Armor Add-on.esp1F  Fran_Lv30Item_Maltz.esp**  Atmospheric Loading Screens - Original Text.esp20  All Natural.esp  [Version 1.0]21  All Natural - SI.esp  [Version 1.0]++  All Natural - SI Settlements NIW Support.esp22  Immersive Interiors.esp  [Version 0.7]23  Immersive Interiors - Lights Addon.esp  [Version 0.7]24  MIS Low Wind.esp25  MIS New Sounds Optional Part.esp26  Atmospheric Oblivion.esp27  PCSoundAnnah.esp  [Version 2.6]28  All Natural - Real Lights.esp  [Version 1.0]29  WindowLightingSystem.esp2A  AliveWaters.esp2B  Ayleid Loot EXtension.esp2C  Ayleid Loot EXtension - OOO Dungeons.esp2D  Book Jackets Oblivion.esp2E  Display Stats.esp  [Version 1.3]++  Item interchange - Extraction.esp  [Version 0.76]2F  Quest Log Manager.esp  [Version 1.3.1]30  RAEVWD New Sheoth.esp  [Version 1.5]31  RoadSigns.esp++  VA_BetterGold.esp32  Willful Resistance.esp  [Version 4.0]++  Harvest[Containers] - SI - Ore Respawn.esp++  Harvest[Containers] - Vanilla - Ore Respawn.esp33  Enhanced Economy.esp  [Version 4.2.1]34  DropLitTorchOBSE.esp  [Version 2.4]35  Streamline 3.1.esp36  Map Marker Overhaul.esp  [Version 3.5.2]37  Map Marker Overhaul - 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Cyrodiil.esp**  Cava Obscura - SI.esp**  Cava Obscura - Filter Patch For Mods.esp++  Item interchange - Placement for FCOM.esp  [Version 0.76]++  EVE_KhajiitFix.espC5  DKImperials.espC6  MGothic Breton Race.espC7  bgBalancingEVCore.esp  [Version 10.52EV-D]C8  bgMagicEV.esp  [Version 1.7EV]++  bgMagicSpellTomes_for_WryeBash.esp  [Version 1.68EV]++  bgMagicItemSigil.esp  [Version 1.68EV]++  bgMagicEVStartspells.esp  [Version 1.68EV]C9  bgMagicBonus.esp  [Version 1.7EV]++  bgMagicEVAddEnVar.esp  [Version 1.68EV]CA  bgMagicEVPaperChase.esp  [Version 1.68EV]**  bgBalancingEVOptionalNPCDiversity, TNR Merge.esp  [Version 10.0EV-D]CB  bgBalancingVanillaGMSTArmorPenalty.esp  [Version 9.0UV-U]++  bgBalancingEVOptionalFCOMAdditions.esp  [Version 10.]**  bgBalancingOptionalNPCDiversityKvatchRebuilt, for Wrye Bash.esp  [Version 9.0EV-D]CC  bgBalancingEVLAMEAddition.esp  [Version 10.51EV-D]++  bgBalancingEVLAMEGlue.esp  [Version 10.0EV-D1.62EV]**  bgBalancingEVOptionalNPCDiversityLAME.esp  [Version 10.5EV-D]++  bgBalancingEVOptionalSeamReducerHighElfFix.esp  [Version 10.0EV-D]CD  bgIntegrationEV.esp  [Version 0.993]CE  Birthsigns Expanded.esp  [Version 3.11.]CF  Better Cities Full.espD0  Better Cities - Unique Landscape Barrowfields.espD1  Better Cities - Unique Landscape Chorrol Hinterland.espD2  Better Cities - Tears of the Fiend.espD3  Better Cities - Unique Landscape Cheydinhal Falls.espD4  Better Cities - Unique Landscape Skingrad Outskirts.espD5  Better Cities - VHBloodlines.espD6  Better Cities - VWD of the IC.espD7  Better Imperial City.espD8  Better Cities - Old Crow Inn.espD9  Better Cities - COBL.esp  [Version 2.1]DA  Better Cities - No LEYAWIIN Flooding.espDB  TheOubliette.espDC  NoLoad.esp**  [GFX]_Initial_Glow-self.esp++  Life Detected - OMOD.esp++  Advanced_Water_Modification.esp++  Real Lava 1.3.esp**  NRB4 Standard Road Record.esp++  Bashed Delayers - MERGE ONLY.esp  [Version 2.08]++  Cobl Filter Late MERGE ONLY.esp  [Version 1.53]++  Harvest Containers Filter patch for mods.esp  [Version 1.00]**  All Natural - Indoor Weather Filter For Mods.esp  [Version 1.0]DD  Bashed Patch, 0.esp

» Wed Sep 01, 2010 6:14 pm

Hi all,

well, it seems I`m not quite done with nGCD 2.02 observations. This is what I`ve seen on a new Moonshadow Elves char , stealth specialization, The Lady:

- lvl 2 in tutorial dungeon had as an example sneak as major with skill 60(40 base + 20 Moonshadow Blossom racial ability),
blade as minor with skill 20. For blade I deduct 5 base + 5 from unknown source + 10 Moonshadow Blossom. Now after the emperors death and final talk with Baurus my chars stats were profoundly changed STILL at lvl 2 like:

- sneak 42 with Moonshadow Blossom, 22 without and blade 11 with blossom, 1(yes, ONE) without. Meaning a net reduction of sneak by 18 points(40 - 22) and blade by 9 points(10 - 1).

Now, I`m not whining abt Moonshadow race being mistreated, though Blossom effect is active only between 12 am and 6 am leaving my char with
blade skill 1 during daytime and that playing TIE... No, I`m afraid there could be a general issue with stats calculation.
IMHO the algorithm should never allow for:

- decreasing a skill below the vanilla minimum of 5 plus any racial ability.

Why? Well, I choose a race for specific reasons and that means I want my race to differ from others for RPing reasons and still be viable. Don`t want any lottery here.
AFAIU nGCD allows for custom races so the problem is not there either.

My 2 cents anyway.

Regards, Haldir

» Wed Sep 01, 2010 3:54 pm

I have had the level up symbol show up randomly in a character that I did not clean save. However, as soon as I level up a skill, it goes away.

» Wed Sep 01, 2010 10:40 pm

IMHO the algorithm should never allow for decreasing a skill below the vanilla minimum of 5 plus any racial ability.

Huh. That's a pretty interesting idea. I'm going to have to think about it, because of course there are repercussions to making any assumptions in a moddable game... but this one looks generally safe. I already make a similar assumption in the level determination code, because as far as I can tell the base 5, +5 for specialization and +20 for class are hard-coded.

That doesn't mean a mod couldn't change those numbers using spell effects (which is exactly what the Moonshadow appears to be doing), but it does seem likely that in the majority of cases the change is supposed to be temporary.

There are other considerations at play here too, but Oblivion's lack of a clean way to do indefinite-but-temporary drains (Morrowind could!) has been a thorn in nGCD's side from day 1, and an admittedly partial but reasonably consistent solution might be better than just slapping a warning label on it.

» Thu Sep 02, 2010 1:28 am

; --- The behavior of these settings is obvious. They are safe to change. ---

To those that understand them.

» Wed Sep 01, 2010 7:40 pm

Hi all,

there`s more to come from me on nGCD 2.02... Namely:

- the aforementioned Moonshadow Elf went for a nap. Guess what? The vanilla leveling screen came up with some impressive attribute increase numbers.
I chose three and checked then the char stats in the ledger. They were unchanged.
So I let him sleep for 1 hr more. Sure, the leveling screen came up but with no attribute increase numbers meaning an increase of one. I chose three, checked the stats, no change there, slept some more and the same thing happened again. And again, and again...
Seems like in my installation leveling works properly only when awake as I saw nothing of the above when leveling from 1 to 2 being awake at that point.
There were no level up arrows during all this.

So it`s back to nGCD_RC 6 for the time being.

Regards, Haldir

» Thu Sep 02, 2010 1:32 am

I just reverted to rc6, loaded up the level 3, and he became level 4, so not as much of a jump but still an undesirable result.

» Wed Sep 01, 2010 9:44 pm

Haldir, something just occurred to me if you're willing to test -- try setting SkillMaxIgnoresAbilities to 1 in nGCDCalc.ini.

That level-up behavior is extremely weird, though. I wonder if Oblivion checks for level-up a few frames after you wake... I'll run a few tests when I've got a moment.

ITPaladin, if you're looking at a character that was formerly Vanilla, any version of nGCD will almost always raise its level because non-class skills are counted. This will not change, not even optionally, because not counting class skills but still allowing them to raise attributes is a min/maxing exploit waiting to happen (just read any Oblivion character optimization guide). Closing loopholes is one of nGCD's prime directives!

» Wed Sep 01, 2010 11:55 am

Well it doesn't matter right now since if you see my new problem thread I can't even create a new mod build from the ground up!

» Thu Sep 02, 2010 12:44 am

Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't reducing nGCD.fLevelFactor effectively increase the skill gains required to level, compounding my already ~3x slowdown with Progress?

» Wed Sep 01, 2010 1:49 pm

Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't reducing nGCD.fLevelFactor effectively increase the skill gains required to level

Yes.

compounding my already ~3x slowdown with Progress?

No. You still gain skills at the same (3x) rate, which means you still gain attributes at the same (nGCD) rate, and these two things are what really determine your power. Level is just a summary that tells the game engine what's appropriate to throw at you.

With everything totally default, nGCD gives you 1 level per 17.75 skill increases. But it counts all of your skills, whereas vanilla only counts 1/3. Accounting for that, if you're developing every skill evenly, that's equivalent to just over 1 level per 6 skillups in the vanilla system -- a 40% increase. That's why people frequently see their level go up. Not by 40% -- you'd have to be raising all your skills at the exact same rate, which really never happens in practice. Conceivably, if you stick completely to your class, you could see more than a 40% reduction; though of course that never actually happens either.

This is as much about demographics as design. Somewhere in that +/- 40% range is a statistical median that will give most players an experience that's challenging but reasonable, and the fLevelFactor default should reflect that. Due to my lamentable lack of psychic omniscience, I honestly have no clue where that median actually lies. So to begin with, I'm aiming right down the middle. Initial reports strongly indicate that I should nudge it down a bit, but really, the next number I try will be almost as much a wild guess as this one. And probably a little high on purpose, because as I commented above, hardship yields richer feedback.

» Thu Sep 02, 2010 12:28 am

Initial reports strongly indicate that I should nudge it down a bit, but really, the next number I try will be almost as much a wild guess as this one. And probably a little high on purpose, because as I commented above, hardship yields richer feedback.

Oh, then I will raise mine from 0.8 to 0.9 to begin with. I might even go back to 1.0.
1.0 means harder opponents right? I think I got it backwards, thought that me gaining so many levels would make the game to easy.

Cheers!

» Wed Sep 01, 2010 10:21 am

No. You still gain skills at the same (3x) rate, which means you still gain attributes at the same (nGCD) rate, and these two things are what really determine your power. Level is just a summary that tells the game engine what's appropriate to throw at you.

Ah yes, of course. That make sense, and a higher level with lower skills will make the game "harder". Grand. You'll have to excuse my ignorance... I posted that the day after coming off a 65 hour week, including a 17-hour push to get the installation finished before the thrice-shortened deadline.

And I need to report that I've had the same levelup issues as Haldir, with a character that was level 14 under RC6 and is level 16 under 2.0. Loaded yesterday's saved game, played a bit and went to sleep (necessitated by TFE), got the level up screen. So I tried the sleep-one-hour-level-up-repeat thing. Each time, nGCD didn't readjust my level or stats, even after setting ASSERT to 1. I did that 11 times before calling it quits and restarting. After a restart (exit to desktop, run, load same saved game) it seems okay.

Don't you just love intermittent bugs? :banghead:

Oh, and I also don't seem to be getting my Willful Resistance bonus. OBSE v19 final.

» Wed Sep 01, 2010 4:47 pm

Oh, and I also don't seem to be getting my Willful Resistance bonus. OBSE v19 final.

This problem was mentioned earlier:

Willful Resistance does not appear to be functioning at all as I am not seeing the modifier under Active Effects despite having a low willpower number.

Huh... it's not working for me either. I don't think there's any way this can be nGCD-related. OBSE 0019, maybe? Keep an eye on my general mods thread, I'll post there when I figure this out.

» Wed Sep 01, 2010 2:04 pm

This problem was mentioned earlier:

Yep. Just mentioning that I'm in the same group.

» Wed Sep 01, 2010 2:10 pm

Haldir, something just occurred to me if you're willing to test -- try setting SkillMaxIgnoresAbilities to 1 in nGCDCalc.ini.

That level-up behavior is extremely weird, though. I wonder if Oblivion checks for level-up a few frames after you wake... I'll run a few tests when I've got a moment.

ITPaladin, if you're looking at a character that was formerly Vanilla, any version of nGCD will almost always raise its level because non-class skills are counted. This will not change, not even optionally, because not counting class skills but still allowing them to raise attributes is a min/maxing exploit waiting to happen (just read any Oblivion character optimization guide). Closing loopholes is one of nGCD's prime directives!

Hi tejon,

I`m back to RC, after I`m sure my installation works with that I might do some testing on 2.02.
BTW, maybe I could try this on RC?

Regards, Haldir

» Wed Sep 01, 2010 8:46 pm

so how exactly can i disable the incredibly low stats? they just dont go well with FCOM... way too low hp. im using Race Balancing Project... i just keep dying in one hit because i have 17-22hp. seems to randomly change.

im also using LAME/SM so i should disable the hp/mana/fatigue for ur mod too?

» Wed Sep 01, 2010 12:29 pm

so how exactly can i disable the incredibly low stats? they just dont go well with FCOM... way too low hp. im using Race Balancing Project... i just keep dying in one hit because i have 17-22hp. seems to randomly change.

im also using LAME/SM so i should disable the hp/mana/fatigue for ur mod too?

Just a question: Are you by any chance in the tutorial dungeon?

If you are you should use the immediate chargen esp that is included in the package. It sounds like you haven't got a class yet, and since your stats depends on your skills, your character svcks.

» Thu Sep 02, 2010 2:18 am

Poddmeister's got the right answer on stats. If your hit points are that low, you don't have a class yet. If you can't survive the tutorial with those low stats, you need to activate Immediate Character Generation.

nGCD does nothing with fatigue. Regarding LAME/SM: you can disable nGCD's health, magicka and regeneration handling, or you can disable retroactive health in LAME and the magicka settings in SM. nGCD's system is far more complex than those used by the other mods, and the amounts of health and magicka that different characters get is part of the overall balance, so in general I recommend keeping nGCD in control of those; but the option is there if you prefer to go the other way.

I really need to put a FAQ in the archive.

» Thu Sep 02, 2010 12:12 am

So, after having tested 2.02 for a while I have discovered some things.

Bug 1: Equipping items that raise my skills also increases my level (Can't be intended, right?)

Bug 2: If setting Levelscandecerease to 0 I've had instances where bug 1 increases my level succesively, nGCD doesn't decrease it, and I get to unreasonable levels like over 30000.

Bug 3: If setting Levelscandecerease to 0 I get the level-up screen when I go to sleep. This does not happen when levels can decrease.

Balancing: I went from level 16 with an existing nGCD character to level 23, which was a marked increase in difficulty with a full FCOM install. I would say, bring it down a little but not too much.

Hope this helps and thank you for all your mods Tejon. I use many of them and I couldn't imagine playing Oblivion without at least nGCD and Progress :foodndrink: