Intended, but adjustable. It's a nasty catch-22: either permanent effects like the Gray Prince's Training reduce your attribute and level caps, or temporary but indefinite ones like the Skeleton Key give you attributes and levels. The latter is default, because the former can be crippling. This behavior can be changed by enabling SkillMaxIgnoresAbilities in nGCDCalc.ini.


...yeah, that's a change I obviously didn't think through well enough. Old nGCD didn't even have that option, and level fluctuations were one of the top complaints; figured I could quell that FAQ. Wasn't aware just how many mods would be incompatible. (The level-32767 bug is actually a separate issue with negative numbers wrapping, and should be fixed by Haldir's enforced-minimum-skills suggestion above. But this default causes your level to STAY there, so yeah.)


Guessing this character had fairly even distribution of skills? What LevelFactor are you using right now, or have you changed it?


It does help, a lot. It's amazing how little substantive feedback I get. I know I'm not the only modder who's discovered a terrible, unavoidable bug six months after release... but though dozens of people were affected, nobody said anything because they assumed it was intended!

This should be prevented by enabling SkillMaxIgnoresAbilities in nGCDCalc.ini. It's a nasty catch-22: either the Gray Prince's Training reduces your attribute and level caps, or the Skeleton Key gives you attributes and levels. The latter is default.


what exactly did do u mean? im using nGCD/progress and the dark brotherhood shroud that adds alot of skills doesnt seem to level me up at all or alter my current level's progression but i dont have simpleuncap set to 1. i dont plan to ever get even past lvl 30 for a character so should I enable uncap on nGCD? just not sure what kind of changes would be impacted by it for how I would level.

That's because it's a normal enchantment. They can go over the 100-cap even in the vanilla game, so there's no problem. The same is true of any effect gained from a spell, power, potion or ingredient. The problematic effects are generally added by scripts rather than by equipping, consuming or casting something. Using the same examples as before: the Skeleton Key gives you its bonus with a script when you pick it up, and the Gray Prince Training is a scripted quest reward. In mods, sneak penalties from a stealth overhaul are the most common issue I've seen. Constant effects attached to your race or birthsign also fall into this category, though in vanilla none of those affect skills.


In general, I don't recommend it unless you're using mods that don't work well with the normal calculations. Basically: if things are acting weird, try changing the settings. All changes are retroactive, so you don't have to anticipate problems, just solve them if they do happen.

hello _tejon!

thx for the good work, this mod might be my favourite leveling mod as from what i can read yet.

i'll start over from scratch with oblivion + FCOM (further mods to be added if time and demands) fresh install, new characters.

because i don't have a complete overview of what is all changed in OOO (part of FCOM) in leveling along with the other stuff i wanna ask what "compatibility" settings i'd use best.
i know, that OOO changes the levelrate of skills (slower), the health/magicka/fatigue derivation and regeneration!, birthsigns and maybe training stuff?
i dunno exactly,along with the other FCOM mods if some of this features of OOO are enabled, and what do the other mods of FCOM change further in leveling purposes? it's very much stuff and confusing. nevertheless FCOM installation guide recommends nGCD along with Progress, but doesn't state what do disable/enable. neither found i a complete chart of changes of FCOM, yet.
there's also keeping the balancing in mind, too quick or slow leveling could destroy the immersion i guess.

so to be sure, please state what i should enable/disable to not conflict with a new (and working) FCOM installation and new created characters. and how this all matches up best.

a quick peek in the readme and my experience with the overhauls so far i assume for nGCD.ini:

set nGCD.iTrainingMode          to  -1set nGCD.bDoNotManageHealth     to  1        ;to not to be managed by nGCD nor vanilla, FCOM can take overset nGCD.bDoNotManageMagicka    to  1set nGCD.bDoNotManageRegen      to  1

thx in advance!
regards

Jed


PS:

1.) is level decrease safe?
2.) why do the minor skills count to level-up progress bar?

You probably don't want to change any of the settings you listed. The changes OOO/FCOM makes in all of those categories are very simple, and nGCD safely overrides them by default. Turning off nGCD's health management will actually prevent you from ever gaining health, since OOO/FCOM doesn't change the level-up health mechanic, only the starting multiplier on Endurance.

The balance with nGCD is strongly influenced by OOO anyway -- vanilla is just too easy! -- so other than level calculation, you should be fine with defaults for all of that.

If you've read through this thread, you'll see that I'm not happy (and neither is anyone else!) with the default value of nGCD.fLevelFactor, the first setting in nGCDCalc.ini. In a nutshell, right now nGCD levels you up too fast. I haven't made a final decision on what the new default will be, but for now I'm going to recommend changing that setting from 1.0 to 0.75.


It's actually far safer, and recommended. That default will change next version, too.


No, all it does is pop up the birthsign and class menus right after you pick your race. After that you're in the prison cell, and the tutorial dungeon runs as normal. You get a chance to re-pick when Uriel and Baurus ask about your sign and class, and of course again at the prison gate.

The immediate character generation feature was one of the things I tested out when I was helping beta test Class Advantages. Zen did make sure this was fully compatible with Class Advantages. I agree that nGCD levels up too fast. I am experimenting with that setting to see what works better for me.

very nice, thx for the tip with nGCD.fLevelFactor to 0.75. i consider to change that, too. and i also like the level decrease and turned it on.

regarding to all (even minor) skills level-ups, am i right with:

• minor + major skills count to level progress-bar multiplied by fLevelFactor? (f.e. 20 skill-improvements x 1.0 = 20 or for factor 0.75 => 20 x 0.75 = 15 -> level progress-bar)
  
• the minor, major, specialized skills progress are vanilla? i.e. http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Oblivion:Increasing_Skills#Experience_Points_Needed? a low skill advances faster than a higher skill, is that fine-tuned (like Progress mod) or vanilla with just a factor? i've read on http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Oblivion:Increasing_Skills#Experience_Points_Needed
  
• as there's no difference for progress in major/minor, the char creation with classes is only for advantages in starting skills and attributes?

OOO requires micro-management of skill-usage and attribute points distribution of http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Oblivion:Efficient_Leveling#Leveling_.2B5.2F.2B5.2F.2B5_vs_.2B5.2F.2B5.2F.2B1 to have a chance ingame.
the vanilla level-cap (which is also valid for OOO and the monster mods) would be around level 50 regarding to the planner here http://ocp.uesp.net/. is the advancement with nGCD similar? because some monsters are based on PC levels, well they are static with FCOM / MMM, but some are in a range and still scale with PCs level.
ok, i can answer that partly for myself, because there's no limit only counting major skills for level-up. so the levelcap will be way higher? but how much and exactly?

btw... some hours of testing, no bugs so far. sometimes the speed attribute shows a high negative value (i think 100 - current, if i remember correctly, that's 25 speed => showing -75)

regards
Jed

Hi tejon,

Playing along normally last night, slept, and got the level up screen. Chose three attributes and nGCD overrode it as expected, but still... getting the popup was startling. I haven't seen it in years it feels like.

This character has an eclectic range of skills if that is what you mean, and a lot of the minors are at 25 or thereabout.
I haven't changed LevelFactor since I wanted to try the changes out. I'm thinking of trying to though it out, since it gives a new level of challenge, but I will decrease it if it gets to tough.

increase or decrease of the fLevelFactor?? as i understand an increase makes the game easier.

if all changes are applied immediately, why not playing around with skills/level-up on console and see what it all gets. that's my fave atm still waiting for answers

http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Oblivion:Console command is

advskill  

where is the skillname w/o whitespaces, case-insensitive and increase by .

Yes,a decrease in fLevelFactor makes the game easier, but my original complaint was that the game got much harder for me since my character jumped from level 16 to 23, meaning that the opposition got much harder with my character staying at the same skill level. With the default factor it's a real challemge to stay alive right now.

@Poddmeister:



is it me or reads like 1.0 was too easy, 0.75 (decrease of fLevelFactor) makes it more challenging. or am i getting something wrong?

regarding to your complaint: of course the monsters/enemies scale with your PC level if you don't use another game mechanics/balancing mod like f.e. OOO/MMM. in vanilla: same mobs fought with PC level 15 or level 25 is a difference, the mobs are "equally" leveled as your PC. they have more health, better weapons and armor. YOUR personal skill advancement (or lack of) "doesn't interest" the mobs, only your level you said "jumped from level 16 to 23", so you neither have better armor, weapons, nor skills resp. to the grown mobs

PC = player character

JOG's overhaul doesn't mess up nGCD does it? I never noticed anything but u mentioned stealth overhauls can mess stuff up when you were replying to my post earlier. btw thanks for all the help and input! got your other mods working from other forum thanks!

edit- jedcooper, i think he just meant it makes it more challenging BECAUSE you level on a slower curv when you reduce it? i set it to 0.7280 to match the default skill progression on PROGRESS mod. figured whynot the same curv?

wait just realized with progress for skills the curv is the other way around, the higher the value the slower the curv is? now im confused lol, so nGCD leveling curv is the opposite? if your using progress with ngcd then what one is doing what lol.

ah, i see... well under that point of view ok if faster level-up the game gets harder if not appropriate armor,weapons etc. it's a bit vice versa. still i guess he's not using any monster mod (which scales the monsterlevels along with PC level).

-

i did a chart for an imperial male knight with http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Oblivion:Birthsigns#Steed: [img]http://www.abload.de/img/obl_ngcd_comp_summary7yb5.png[/img]
Vanilla would be: [img]http://www.abload.de/img/obl_vanilla_imperial_kwym6.jpg[/img]
Attribute Comparison chart: [img]http://www.abload.de/img/obl_attribute_comp_chaadkd.png[/img] (skills remain the same)

question to tejon: are the attributes and derived health/magicka/fatigue calculated correct so far? (as i'm using FCOM)

reminder:
http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Oblivion:Races
http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Oblivion:Classes#Standard_Classes

Whoa!
Should I return to Oblivion?
This new nGCD tempts me so.

Anyway, I have to give you kudos to this:

This means that all my Attributes-affecting and Skills-affecting mods are compatible!
Yeeha!

1 is correct, assuming LevelMode = 0. (Mode 1 complicates things a bit.) The number of skill increases required per level is (17.75 / fLevelFactor). The 17.75 is from 2100 (total possible skills) minus 325 (starting skills after race and class) divided by iSkillMax. Playing with no class, or a race which gives higher/lower total skill bonus, will adjust this number to maintain the same level cap.

Regarding 2 and 3: nGCD does nothing to skill increase rates, and will use vanilla settings or obey any other mod's changes. So yes, class does make a difference after character creation if you have no mods which change that. Your class (and specialized) skills will rise faster, so in a given amount of time you'll level quicker using class skills even though the actual level calculation doesn't do anything special with them by default.


Assuming no uncapper (so skills stop at 100) and no changes to any of the settings below nGCD.iSkillMax in nGCDCalc.ini, the level cap is exactly nGCD.fLevelFactor times nGCD.iSkillMax. With the current defaults, that's 100. Reducing LevelFactor to 0.75 drops max level to 75.


You've probably got OBME installed? It allows negative attributes. This effect is not caused by nGCD, but if you've got a mod which causes you to slow down in certain situations by applying a Speed drain, it would stop at 0 in vanilla but go negative with OBME.


And, okay, looks like I wasn't clear enough: Higher levels make the game harder. nGCD making you level too fast means things get very difficult. In vanilla, hit points and attribute increases come at level-up so it seems like they're linked; but they're really not, and nGCD discards the illusion. Your level does not define your power, but only measures it so the game knows what sort of challenges are fair to throw at you. On the upside, greater risks are tied to greater rewards; but that doesn't matter if you can't survive the risks!

So, in summation: nGCD.fLevelFactor defaults to 1.0 which makes the game too hard. The game is made easier by lowering the value of that setting.



That's the mod which brought this whole category of problems to my attention, originally. At this point it can cause some inconsistencies, but nothing too severe. Definitely allow levels to decrease when using that, though.

Also, the skill increase rate in Progress is unrelated to the level increase factor in nGCD, though they do happen to have similar default values.



:swear: Do you have decreasing levels enabled? (P.S. check your PMs.)



Yes! We miss you!


...okay, I have to make sure of one thing: did you hack the menu XML to make the effects appear? Because if so, I might withdraw my prior statement of compatibility. Also, see the previous page for caveats re: skills.

No. Should I?



I also have nGCD.fLevelFactor set to 1.0. I like the challenge... I was starting to pwn before nGCD 2.0

Yay!
I've always wanted to play my Attributes-based and Skills-based Damage Modifiers mod as a Melee, Range, Spell-caster and Unarmed-combatant specialist.
I've played it thoroughly as the first three but not as an Unarmed combatant.
I *may* return - someday.

No. I didn't use any XML hacks to show the effects.
The effects of all my mods are from Drain or Fortify passive spells - which is a damn lot of spell items in the Construction Set.
I can't remember which Spell Type.
No ModAVs or ModAV2s.
Only Horse Speed Equals Player Speed uses ModAV to adjust the speed of horses.

Well I would lie if I said you hadn't been missed.

No offense to tejon - but a leveling mod is what temps you back to Oblivion? Scripter excitement I guess. :grad:

Not the Tamriel Heightmaps, Nehrim, mTES4 Manager, Class Advantages, John's Leveled list overhaul or the half dozen long play quests that have come out.

Yes. It seems to have been a bad idea in general to make no-decrease the default, and there are reports that the level-up screen doesn't show up (with the same save) if decreases are allowed.


:sadvaultboy:



Right then, should be fine!

hmm... just wondering, with nGCD/PROGRESS running together and both set to default except nGCD level facter set to 0.75 as recommended should it be taking 5 hours just to get half way to level 2? I seem to be leveling incredibly slow. I was at 7% leaving the cave then set back to 4% after choosing my class and now it takes an hour just to get just ONE skill increase. i may have possibly did something wrong or is this typical leveling curv at level one? i have no other leveling mods but also use your race and birthsign mods as well. starting stats seemed normal but skill progression incredibly slow or even near halted. is there some kind of console command I can use to check and show for debugging?

thanks

do you use FCOM or OOO? OOO slows the skill-progress down by default (afaik 3-4x). don't know how much the mod Progress affects that further, because it also calculates new progress rates.

yeah i use FCOM, but isnt OOO skill progress an option you can choose not to use... or am I thinking of FRANS, because I planned from the start to use nGCD/Progress combo so I made sure not to touch anything with leveling during the FCOM process.

i'm not sure, but you could load the bofra's leveling addon included in OOO package as an option (or other .esp files included maybe?!) to get back to vanilla level-rates i think. so further mods could base upon this. i don't think francesco and MMM adjust progress-rates. warcry i'm not sure of.

but i also have a similar problem, sometimes i get 7% or 9% progress for one skill, then again 4% (what is pretty default for LevelFactor 0.75). weird...

i tested that with advskill . try it out for yourself! the first level-up of that skill gets more percent on the progress-bar than the next following ones... WEIRD!

EDIT: well i can't reproduce it anymore... progress-bar gets 4-5% up per skill-levelup. seems it has "levelled off"

Regarding to:

The number of skill increases required per level is (17.75 / fLevelFactor). The 17.75 is from 2100 (total possible skills) minus 325 (starting skills after race and class) divided by iSkillMax.

fLevelFactor = 0.75 would be: 17.75/0.75 = 23.67 skills leveled-up to progress to next level. i.e. 4.225% pts progress per skill level-up, so it should go:
0%, 4.225% = 4%, 8.45% = 8%, 12.675% = 13%, 16.9% = 17%, 21.125% = 21%
(theoretically), practically the fractions vary a bit. i think one progress per level is lost by fractions or round-up/down.

fLevelFactor = 0.71 would give 17.75/0.71 = 25 should be straight 4% each skill-progress then.

hmmm looks like you had quite the fun time with all those numbers there lol... those numbers sound about right for me as well roughly 3-4% for each one which is what I expected but from the very start for example it took 100 arrow hits in marksmanship just to get 1 skill up. the same was for all others like destruction etc.

so OOO alters your skill progression rate without asking you? the readme says this:


however, there is no slow leveling esp nor was there anything during the FCOM process that would have prompted so. can anyone who uses FCOM confirm OOO alters skill progression without asking you? if so I may have to download a mod that resets it back to vanilla and then load ngcd and progress after it?