[RELz] nGCD v2.1 : IV - Oblivion

» Wed Mar 30, 2011 6:25 am

The only thing nGCD touches with health, is the total amount you have. Nothing to do with regeneration, combat or otherwise.

TFE affects fatigue regeneration, if you're using that.

» Wed Mar 30, 2011 10:29 am

The only thing nGCD touches with health, is the total amount you have. Nothing to do with regeneration, combat or otherwise.

TFE affects fatigue regeneration, if you're using that.

All right, just checking. I want to keep nGCD's Magicka Regen settings if possible, but have yet to see how configurable SM's mod is. I really only want it to handle combat regen, and possibly health regen, since none of the other mods I'm using handle that.

Thanks for the updates and replies!
- Tomlong75210

» Wed Mar 30, 2011 7:05 am

How does nGCD calculate health? My character is Level 7 and his health is 106. His health was 106 at level 6 as long as I was checking it. Does that sound normal? I haven't been paying it much attention until recently. It also seems like my character is leveling fast than with the old calculation, but that's fine.

Happy gaming!
- Tomlong75210

» Wed Mar 30, 2011 1:58 am

Health is partly controlled by Endurance, but mostly by skills. Combat skills give the most, magic skills give the least. What's your race and class?

» Wed Mar 30, 2011 9:11 am

Health is partly controlled by Endurance, but mostly by skills. Combat skills give the most, magic skills give the least. What's your race and class?

I'll grab my stats in a sec. I wish Bash had a tool for that.

Be right back.
- Tomlong75210

Edit: Here are some of his stats.

Class: Alteration, Armorer, Blade, Block, Destruction, Light Armor, Marksman

Specialty: Combat

Racial Bonuses: 5 - Armorer, Conjuration, Destruction, Restoration, Sneak; 10 - Illusion, Mysticism

Edit: I have the simple uncapper set to 1 and leveling mode is the default, 0.

Update: I somehow managed to remember how to trigger Actor Details during that last session too:

Spoiler

actor values:
0: Strength 33 baseAV 33 (abilities aes none) maxAV 33 modifcations: max 0 (DR/FO-type aes none), damage 0 (DG/RE-type aes: none, ? aes: none), script 0
1: Intelligence 34 baseAV 34 (abilities aes none) maxAV 34 modifcations: max 0 (DR/FO-type aes none), damage 0 (DG/RE-type aes: none, ? aes: none), script 0
2: Willpower 36 baseAV 36 (abilities aes none) maxAV 36 modifcations: max 0 (DR/FO-type aes none), damage 0 (DG/RE-type aes: none, ? aes: none), script 0
3: Agility 28 baseAV 28 (abilities aes none) maxAV 28 modifcations: max 0 (DR/FO-type aes none), damage 0 (DG/RE-type aes: none, ? aes: none), script 0
4: Speed 32 baseAV 32 (abilities aes none) maxAV 32 modifcations: max 0 (DR/FO-type aes none), damage 0 (DG/RE-type aes: none, ? aes: none), script 0
5: Endurance 43 baseAV 43 (abilities aes none) maxAV 43 modifcations: max 0 (DR/FO-type aes none), damage 0 (DG/RE-type aes: none, ? aes: none), script 0
6: Personality 22 baseAV 22 (abilities aes none) maxAV 22 modifcations: max 0 (DR/FO-type aes none), damage 0 (DG/RE-type aes: none, ? aes: none), script 0
7: Luck 50 baseAV 50 (abilities aes none) maxAV 50 modifcations: max 0 (DR/FO-type aes none), damage 0 (DG/RE-type aes: none, ? aes: none), script 0
8: Health 106 baseAV 106 (abilities aes none) maxAV 106 modifcations: max 0 (DR/FO-type aes none), damage 0 (DG/RE-type aes: none, ? aes: none), script 0
9: Magicka 77 baseAV 101 (abilities aes 30) maxAV 101 modifcations: max 0 (DR/FO-type aes none), damage 0 (DG/RE-type aes: none, ? aes: none), script -24
10: Fatigue 140 baseAV 140 (abilities aes none) maxAV 140 modifcations: max 0 (DR/FO-type aes none), damage 0 (DG/RE-type aes: none, ? aes: none), script 0
11: Encumbrance 122 baseAV 169 (abilities aes none) maxAV 120 modifcations: max -49 (DR/FO-type aes none)!, damage 0 (DG/RE-type aes: none, ? aes: -49 -49), script 0
12: Armorer 57 baseAV 57 (abilities aes none) maxAV 57 modifcations: max 0 (DR/FO-type aes none), damage 0 (DG/RE-type aes: none, ? aes: none), script 0
13: Athletics 25 baseAV 25 (abilities aes none) maxAV 25 modifcations: max 0 (DR/FO-type aes none), damage 0 (DG/RE-type aes: none, ? aes: none), script 0
14: Blade 37 baseAV 37 (abilities aes none) maxAV 37 modifcations: max 0 (DR/FO-type aes none), damage 0 (DG/RE-type aes: none, ? aes: none), script 0
15: Block 36 baseAV 36 (abilities aes none) maxAV 36 modifcations: max 0 (DR/FO-type aes none), damage 0 (DG/RE-type aes: none, ? aes: none), script 0
16: Blunt 10 baseAV 10 (abilities aes none) maxAV 10 modifcations: max 0 (DR/FO-type aes none), damage 0 (DG/RE-type aes: none, ? aes: none), script 0
17: HandToHand 13 baseAV 13 (abilities aes none) maxAV 13 modifcations: max 0 (DR/FO-type aes none), damage 0 (DG/RE-type aes: none, ? aes: none), script 0
18: HeavyArmor 10 baseAV 10 (abilities aes none) maxAV 10 modifcations: max 0 (DR/FO-type aes none), damage 0 (DG/RE-type aes: none, ? aes: none), script 0
19: Alchemy 26 baseAV 26 (abilities aes none) maxAV 26 modifcations: max 0 (DR/FO-type aes none), damage 0 (DG/RE-type aes: none, ? aes: none), script 0
20: Alteration 31 baseAV 31 (abilities aes none) maxAV 31 modifcations: max 0 (DR/FO-type aes none), damage 0 (DG/RE-type aes: none, ? aes: none), script 0
21: Conjuration 23 baseAV 23 (abilities aes none) maxAV 23 modifcations: max 0 (DR/FO-type aes none), damage 0 (DG/RE-type aes: none, ? aes: none), script 0
22: Destruction 33 baseAV 33 (abilities aes none) maxAV 33 modifcations: max 0 (DR/FO-type aes none), damage 0 (DG/RE-type aes: none, ? aes: none), script 0
23: Illusion 15 baseAV 15 (abilities aes none) maxAV 15 modifcations: max 0 (DR/FO-type aes none), damage 0 (DG/RE-type aes: none, ? aes: none), script 0
24: Mysticism 17 baseAV 17 (abilities aes none) maxAV 17 modifcations: max 0 (DR/FO-type aes none), damage 0 (DG/RE-type aes: none, ? aes: none), script 0
25: Restoration 26 baseAV 26 (abilities aes none) maxAV 26 modifcations: max 0 (DR/FO-type aes none), damage 0 (DG/RE-type aes: none, ? aes: none), script 0
26: Acrobatics 8 baseAV 8 (abilities aes none) maxAV 8 modifcations: max 0 (DR/FO-type aes none), damage 0 (DG/RE-type aes: none, ? aes: none), script 0
27: LightArmor 33 baseAV 33 (abilities aes none) maxAV 33 modifcations: max 0 (DR/FO-type aes none), damage 0 (DG/RE-type aes: none, ? aes: none), script 0
28: Marksman 26 baseAV 26 (abilities aes none) maxAV 26 modifcations: max 0 (DR/FO-type aes none), damage 0 (DG/RE-type aes: none, ? aes: none), script 0
29: Mercantile 9 baseAV 9 (abilities aes none) maxAV 9 modifcations: max 0 (DR/FO-type aes none), damage 0 (DG/RE-type aes: none, ? aes: none), script 0
30: Security 6 baseAV 6 (abilities aes none) maxAV 6 modifcations: max 0 (DR/FO-type aes none), damage 0 (DG/RE-type aes: none, ? aes: none), script 0
31: Sneak 12 baseAV 12 (abilities aes none) maxAV 12 modifcations: max 0 (DR/FO-type aes none), damage 0 (DG/RE-type aes: none, ? aes: none), script 0
32: Speechcraft 6 baseAV 6 (abilities aes none) maxAV 6 modifcations: max 0 (DR/FO-type aes none), damage 0 (DG/RE-type aes: none, ? aes: none), script 0

» Wed Mar 30, 2011 1:08 am

So is 108 at level 7 normal?

» Wed Mar 30, 2011 8:32 am

Looks about right with those overall stats, yeah. It's partly because you've got almost as many ranks in magic skills as in combat skills, and partly because of your relatively low Endurance. Racial attributes play a big role there, what race is that? Something custom obviously, and not one of mine...

» Wed Mar 30, 2011 3:48 am

Looks about right with those overall stats, yeah. It's partly because you've got almost as many ranks in magic skills as in combat skills, and partly because of your relatively low Endurance. Racial attributes play a big role there, what race is that? Something custom obviously, and not one of mine...

He's a Hidden Elf (RBP) with a couple of the class bonuses switched from a 5pt bonus to a 10pt bonus and vice versa. I didn't know that 43 was low, ha-ha. It's higher than all of his other stats. All right, I guess he's going to have a tough life running away from many of the FCOM baddies (especially the mages...)

Thanks for the reply!
- Tomlong75210

» Wed Mar 30, 2011 1:00 am

I didn't know that 43 was low, ha-ha. It's higher than all of his other stats.

Okay, I didn't notice that. That's definitely odd. Are you running uncapped? I do most of my balance testing with the 100-cap and it's possible that removing the class-skill exponents in v2 threw the numbers off more than I realized when you extend to 200.

If you are uncapped, simple test: reset to defaults and see what numbers you get.

» Wed Mar 30, 2011 5:50 am

Okay, I didn't notice that. That's definitely odd. Are you running uncapped? I do most of my balance testing with the 100-cap and it's possible that removing the class-skill exponents in v2 threw the numbers off more than I realized when you extend to 200.

If you are uncapped, simple test: reset to defaults and see what numbers you get.

With the defaults, Endurance is 51 and health is 117. There isn't much of a difference. :L

» Tue Mar 29, 2011 11:03 pm

10% isn't peanuts.

Actually, I'm glad to see that it's less than 10% Health despite nearly 20% difference in Endurance. That soothes my worries about uncapper behavior; the direct skill-based component to Health and Magicka makes up for the lower early-game main attributes.

Anyway: yeah, it's pretty much your skill set. Magic skills are crazy-good, and balanced against poor health scaling. For comparison, a pure warrior could easily have more health at level 1 than you do right now. The design there is influenced by what would happen in vanilla if you didn't abuse miscellaneous skills to get yourself extra Endurance ASAP as a mage. Consider that a vanilla character who starts and says at 30 Endurance would only have 78 Health at level 7!

» Wed Mar 30, 2011 3:03 am

Want to start by saying I love your mod, it's one of those I can't imagine playing oblivion without, but I've always felt quite limited when it's about character creation, specially (or only?) for the need to choose certain skills to make certain attributes start high or not too much low, and now I think I've came up with some method that could "solve" that (or that could better fit my tastes), so I'm sharing it with you just in case you mind implementing something similar to it or at least to ask how feasible it would be to implement alongside nGCD + TRAP + Birthsigns Expanded.

The idea is to make character's creation more like an RPG where you assign points to attributes, with racial and birthsigns bonuses, and then make nGCD consider those values as the starting point for each attribute, and so make initial skills don't condition those attributes, so that it'd allow a character to be strong without having to know how to fight, or allow PCs having a decent personality without being very persuasive, etc. It should also allow for different characters with the same race, birthsign and class to be different each other.

A rough example of how I envision it: every character's attributes start at 20, then racial bonuses apply (something like (default racial value - 20) / 2), and then the player have X spare attribute points to assign freely (or with some restriction like a cap of 50, etc). On top of that birthsigns bonuses (if any) are added, and all of this regardless of class and/or skills.

In fact these are two different matters that may be adressed separately (more freedom for the player to "customize" his/her character and skills not conditioning attribute's starting values) but I think both match pretty well together. As a side effect it could allow for more subtle and less deterministic birthsigns, but anyway that's not the point (although it'd be nice).

Please notice I'm only talking about character creation, I'm aware there are mods that let you assign xp points when leveling up like in classic rpgs, but that's not what I aim for, I love nGCD leveling system and in fact I'd hate having to assign skill or attribute points at every level-up, I find it quite immersion breaking as it kinda forces you to "manage" your character progress. But regardless of this, we all choose how we want our character to be, at least at the beginning, by choosing race, class and birthsign, so adding a new variable here doesn't change things so much, except that it'd add some sense of freedom and it'd increase diversity among similar characters.

» Tue Mar 29, 2011 10:33 pm

A rough example of how I envision it: every character's attributes start at 20, then racial bonuses apply (something like (default racial value - 20) / 2), and then the player have X spare attribute points to assign freely (or with some restriction like a cap of 50, etc). On top of that birthsigns bonuses (if any) are added, and all of this regardless of class and/or skills.

Other than the "X spare points" bit, this can already be done in nGCDCalc.ini by setting AttrMin to -1 and playing with the RacialAttributesRatio and RacialAttributesOffset values. It's admittedly a pretty rough system; I've actually got a replacement designed for v2.2, and I might even make it default, so you may want to wait until then and see if it's what you're looking for.

Between birthsigns and class attributes, there are already a few ways to give a little extra bump to an attribute at game start; and for a quick adjustment you could increase the bonus from class attributes in nGCDCalc.ini. Adding some expanded "special training" options might be interesting, but should definitely be its own separate mod.

» Wed Mar 30, 2011 7:57 am

Ok np, we'll see what v2.2 brings to us. Any chance that in next or v2.3 skills don't retroactively determine attributes when installing or creating a new character? Or is there some setting to minimize this effect?

» Wed Mar 30, 2011 11:58 am

Hi I've been looking for a way to slow down levelling in Nehrim & I'm having a look at Progress, as a possible way of archiving this .

What would I need to change in the ESM to use it with Nehrim?

The INI looks very promising & would allow me to do exactly what I want to do but, what would I need to do, "other than changing masters" to the Progress.esm ? I realize can probably get by without any of the esp's, although an ESP purpose built for Nehrim would be fabulous. thanks in advance for any help Beebee

» Tue Mar 29, 2011 11:41 pm

Any chance that in next or v2.3 skills don't retroactively determine attributes when installing or creating a new character?

Absolutely zero chance, for technical reasons; that behavior is at the core of the nGCD system. It would be easier to write a new mod from scratch.

Now on the other hand, I've been considering doing that for other reasons. Not that I'd be abandoning nGCD, but AVUncapper is actually attractive to me and nGCD is designed around the 100-cap; its uncapped behavior (rather, 200-cap) is reasonable, but not how I'd design it if "no cap" were the assumed default.

What would I need to change in the ESM & ESP to use it with Nehrim?

To be honest, I haven't a clue. I haven't tried Nehrim and I've got no idea what kinds of changes it makes to all of that. Progress.esm will probably work fine just by changing masters, and that's all you need for basic adjustments like slower leveling. You'll need to change all the settings to match Nehrim's defaults, of course. The optional .esm's will probably also technically work with a simple conversion, but the bigger question is whether they're appropriate -- does Nehrim do similar things already, have some skills been changed to new purposes, etc.? I don't know any of that.

Psymon is running a dedicated http://www.gamesas.com/index.php?/topic/1159104-nehrim-and-mods-ii and he's familiar enough with my mods that he can probably answer all of those questions.

» Wed Mar 30, 2011 1:50 am

Absolutely zero chance, for technical reasons; that behavior is at the core of the nGCD system. It would be easier to write a new mod from scratch.

Now on the other hand, I've been considering doing that for other reasons. Not that I'd be abandoning nGCD, but AVUncapper is actually attractive to me and nGCD is designed around the 100-cap; its uncapped behavior (rather, 200-cap) is reasonable, but not how I'd design it if "no cap" were the assumed default.

To be honest, I haven't a clue. I haven't tried Nehrim and I've got no idea what kinds of changes it makes to all of that. Progress.esm will probably work fine just by changing masters, and that's all you need for basic adjustments like slower leveling. You'll need to change all the settings to match Nehrim's defaults, of course. The optional .esm's will probably also technically work with a simple conversion, but the bigger question is whether they're appropriate -- does Nehrim do similar things already, have some skills been changed to new purposes, etc.? I don't know any of that.

Psymon is running a dedicated http://www.gamesas.com/index.php?/topic/1159104-nehrim-and-mods-ii and he's familiar enough with my mods that he can probably answer all of those questions.

Ok I will run it past him I'm not quite sure how to find the Nehrim defaults but in some ways a mod like this is a better fit for Nehrim than it is Oblivion. The world is static you find more difficult enemies by moving to another area of the map . So having a mod that increases the points needed to gain a level is a really easy way to increase the game difficulty Beebee

» Wed Mar 30, 2011 7:27 am

Hello!

You probably got this a hundred times over, but I need to ask just to make sure things are as they should be. I want to make a character with the skills capped at 100 but the attributes offset by the starting racial values. I had this configured for nGCD 1.x but now it's all different

In a good way!
So, I changed the following:

nGCDCalc.ini

nGCDAttrMax  to 120nGCDAttrCap to 150 (just to leave some room for fortify effects and stuff)nGCD.bSkillMaxIgnoresAbilities to 1nGCD.bAttrMaxIgnoresAbilities to 1nGCD.iAttrMin to -1nGCD.bAttrMinRaisesAttrMax to 1

And that's all. There are some changes people make in ProgressGSD.ini, but I don't think I need those.

Finally, I wanted to ask if you know how theNiceOne's Enhanced Economy Mercantile leveling works compared to your ProgressMercantile. Asking because I'm not sure which one to use.

Thanks for everything!

cc

» Tue Mar 29, 2011 9:17 pm

Those settings look good, yep.

The biggest difference between TNO's mercantile leveling and mine, is that I use the base price of an item while he uses the actual buy/sell price. Essentially this means that with EE, buying levels you much faster than selling, especially early in the game when your Mercantile is low. With ProgressMercantile, buying and selling are equal throughout the game. There are good arguments in favor of either one, so you'll have to decide on your which you prefer.

» Wed Mar 30, 2011 10:24 am

If my character is suddenly having the icon that tells me to go sleep and level up. Is there anyway to make it go away but keep this mod? I don't want to remove it.

Spoiler

Oblivion.esm
Windfall.esm
ScreenEffects.esm
Cobl Main.esm
Armamentarium.esm
DremoraCompanion.esm
Better Cities Resources.esm
CM Partners.esm
CustomSpellIcons.esm
HorseCombatMaster.esm
Cobl Races TNR SI.esp
DLCShiveringIsles.esp
Unofficial Shivering Isles Patch.esp
Better Cities .esp
ClocksOfCyrodiil_BC_OBC_OC_OCLR_Vanilla.esp
Oblivion Collectible Cards.esp
Shield on Back 3.1.esp
Enhanced Economy.esp
DropLitTorchOBSE.esp
ScreenControls.esp
Streamline 3.1.esp
MaleBodyReplacerV4.esp
Andragorn_Weapons_Armors.esp
AC2Gear_HGEC.esp
FemaleImperialDragonCuirass.esp
PTArtifacts.esp
Shdw_Armor Set_Sotonhorian.esp
Thieves Arsenal.esp
RealSwords - Bosmer HI.esp
Cobl Glue.esp
Cobl Si.esp
Alluring Potion Bottles v3.esp
Alluring Wine Bottles.esp
ArmamentariumLL.esp
ArmamentariumLLMagic.esp
ArmamentariumArtifacts.esp
ArmamentariumLLArmaVendor.esp
TIE.esp
Castle Ravenpride.esp
Ivellon.esp
AdenseEpicDungeon.esp
Armoured Arms Redone.esp
BrotherhoodRenewed.esp
GoldenCrest.esp
GTAesgaard.esp
The Imperial Vaults.esp
Kragenir's Death Quest.esp
KDQ - Rural Line Additions.esp
Mage'sSkyHouse.esp
MSHaddon-cobl.esp
MSHaddon-Akatosh Mount Pad.esp
MSHaddon-SI.esp
Malevolent.esp
mrSiikas_DwemerTechnology_DwemerSubway.esp
Side's Sailing Ships.esp
Side's Sailing Ships (COBL).esp
TheForgottenShields.esp
VaultsofCyrodiilBC.esp
Windfall.esp
Cyrodiil Travel Services.esp
za_bankmod.esp
RTT.esp
The Lost Spires.esp
Mighty Umbra - Vanilla OB.esp
ElsweyrAnequina.esp
HeartOftheDead.esp
bartholm.esp
Millstone_Farm_COBL.esp
HUD Status Bars.esp
Kyoma's Journal Mod.esp
Class Advantages.esp
Salmo the Baker, Cobl.esp
MidasSpells.esp
MidasMagicCompanions.esp
StealthOverhaul.esp
RenGuardOverhaul.esp
nGCD.esp
_Ren_BeautyPack_onlyhairs.esp
CM Partners.esp
CM Partners Special NPCs.esp
CM Partners NPC.esp
CM Partners More NPCs.esp
CM Partners Marker NPCs.esp
CM Partners Extra NPCs.esp
1em_Vilja.esp
DremoraCompanion.esp
Cobl Races.esp
bgMagicEV.esp
Cobl Races - Balanced.esp
Better Cities Full.esp
Better Cities - Ruined Tail's Tale.esp
Better Cities - TIE Restricted Area.esp
Better Imperial City.esp
Better Cities - The Lost Spires.esp
Better Cities - COBL.esp
Better Cities - Dwemer Subway.esp
Better Cities - Oblivion Collectible Cards.esp
VipCxj_RadarSystem.esp
[GFX]_Initial_Glow-all.esp
MiniMap.esp
Bashed Patch, 0.esp
Mounted_Spellcasting_Deadly_Reflex_Compatible.esp
DRSplatter.esp
DeadlyReflex 6 - Combat Moves.esp

Thats my mod list. Organized with BOSS and patch made with WryeBash.

Dunno what else to include. I've been using the mod since I started the character without any issues. Got to about level 13 and all of a sudden I am getting the level up thing.

» Wed Mar 30, 2011 10:50 am

Do you have the latest nGCD version? If so, have you configured it to prevent levels from decreasing? That's the only situation I currently know of where you'll see the level up icon.

» Wed Mar 30, 2011 4:21 am

I have version 2.02. Requires OBSE 0019. I'll try downloading the new version though. My nets been pretty bad the past week so its been limiting me from upgrading. =<

Otherwise I'll check the ini and see if it is set to allow level decreases. If neither helps, I'll be back. Until then, thanks for the great mods and the assistance.

Edit: Downloaded the new version and OBSE without my net crashing! I'll install them now and test things out. Will update once I try it out.

Edit2: Downloaded both. Installed OBSE 0020. Made a new save after using the command "set ngcd.clean to 1" on ym save. Clean saved and then switched to the new version of nGCD. As soon as it booted up it gave me the level up icon again. Perhaps it has something to do with Class Advantages? Link = http://www.gamesas.com/index.php?/topic/1125389-relz-class-advantages/page__view__findpost__p__16972934__hl__class+advantages__fromsearch__1

» Wed Mar 30, 2011 5:00 am

The nGCD upgrade (including new defaults -- you replaced the .ini files too, right?) should prevent the situation which causes the level-up icon to appear, but if you saved with the icon already there, the "ready to level" status might be stuck in your save game. Try sleeping and going through the vanilla level up once, nGCD will correct your level and attributes immediately and the icon should go away for good.

» Wed Mar 30, 2011 1:49 am

Yup replaced everything using .omod's. Started a new game with this new update in the mean time. But when I read your suggestion, got back on and tried it, I found it didn't go away. The durn icon persisted. Leveled 4 times before I figured it was probably hopeless. Even modified it up to play nice with other things I use. I have HP-Magicka-Regen set to compatibility mode. Amount of times for training per level is also set to compatibility mode. And the ability to lose levels is turned off.

Anything there I can try and flip on to hopefully fix this? If not I can always do alternate plan B. Play my new char with this mod and remove it when I play my mage. Not a big deal.

» Wed Mar 30, 2011 8:55 am

And the ability to lose levels is turned off.

Err... backwards there, that's usually what causes this problem. Did you try it the other way?