[RELz] nGCD v2.1 : IV

» Tue Mar 29, 2011 11:27 pm

http://www.tesnexus.com/downloads/file.php?id=14065
(Req. OBSE v0020)

nGCD is a smooth character advancement system. As your skills progress, your attributes and level are automatically increased using a complex formula. Every skill counts, so you can just play the game without worrying about multipliers or being interrupted by the Level Up screen. As a result, characters tend to be more unique.

The difference between specializations is more pronounced with nGCD. Characters who focus on Combat skills have much higher Health but very low Magicka, and the opposite is true for characters with high Magic skills. Stealth-based characters gain more Health than mages and more Magicka than warriors, and have higher overall attributes than either, making them good dabblers. Hybrids are a balanced option, having less power but fewer weaknesses than a specialist.

Important features include:

Each skill influences more than just one attribute.
Attributes can start lower than the normal racial minimums.
Level is calculated from all skills, not just class skills.
Available training sessions carry over between levels.
Low attributes increase quickly, but it's very hard to reach 100.
Luck does not increase unless it is a class skill.
The size of your magicka pool has no effect on its regeneration rate.
Personality has an effect on both your magicka pool and regeneration.
Extensive configuration options allow most of these features to be changed!

Those who used versions previous to 2.0 will find some major changes:

New configuration file format.
Complete overhaul of Health, Magicka and Regen defaults.
Attributes update even in menus (e.g. persuasion, alchemy).
nGCD now manages training sessions.
New level determination formula. (Two, actually.)
No more custom menu/icons generating incompatibility warnings with DarnUI.
Cleaner documentation, both in the main readme and the various .ini files.

Changes since version 2.02:

Levels can now decrease by default, as in pre-2.0 versions. The option to prevent decrease is still there, but can cause major mod conflicts. The name of the relevant setting has been changed to prevent issues if an old nGCD.ini is left in place.
The LevelFactor setting has been replaced with a far more straightforward LevelCap, which defaults to 85. SimpleUncapper increases this by 100. Because of the lower cap, the default allotment of training sessions per level is increased to 3.
Fortify Skill and Drain Skill effects no longer incorrectly affect level calculation. Ability-type effects still adjust level by default, to ensure the level cap works as expected.

» Wed Mar 30, 2011 10:11 am

Perfect timing, will use the new version with the new WAC-install I'm setting up. Thanks!

» Wed Mar 30, 2011 11:53 am

How does the new leveling calculation compare to the pre-2.0 version, and what is the default level cap with the uncapper? Is the cap 185.

» Wed Mar 30, 2011 1:59 am

Oh cool new update... I will have to give this a fly and report back though it will be a few days, I am out of town right now for the holidays. When upgrading from RC6 to this I should still run NGCD.CLEAN then save and install the new version on the cleaned save correct?

Are the .ini changes still necessary? I mean changing the value of nGCD.bLevelCanDecrease from 0 to 1 and in nGCDCalc.ini, changing the value of nGCD.fLevelFactor from 1.0 to 0.75 or have these been folded into the update as standard now or is there a completely new way of handling all this that makes it all moot? just wanna be sure I have it in correctly.

zwyt

» Wed Mar 30, 2011 2:51 am

Are the .ini changes still necessary? I mean changing the value of nGCD.bLevelCanDecrease from 0 to 1 and in nGCDCalc.ini, changing the value of nGCD.fLevelFactor from 1.0 to 0.75 or have these been folded into the update as standard now or is there a completely new way of handling all this that makes it all moot? just wanna be sure I have it in correctly.

zwyt

I believe your questions are answered in the changelist up top:

Spoiler

Changes since version 2.02:

* Levels can now decrease by default, as in pre-2.0 versions. The option to prevent decrease is still there, but can cause major mod conflicts. The name of the relevant setting has been changed to prevent issues if an old nGCD.ini is left in place.
* The LevelFactor setting has been replaced with a far more straightforward LevelCap, which defaults to 85. SimpleUncapper increases this by 100. Because of the lower cap, the default allotment of training sessions per level is increased to 3.

» Wed Mar 30, 2011 11:54 am

edit: Oops, totally did miss it. Wasn't where I was expecting to find it, sentence-wise. Heh.

» Wed Mar 30, 2011 1:30 am

Yup I missed it too sorry bout that folx.

» Wed Mar 30, 2011 2:24 am

How does the new leveling calculation compare to the pre-2.0 version, and what is the default level cap with the uncapper? Is the cap 185.

185 is default with SimpleUncap, yes. But unlike the other settings affected by SimpleUncap, it's not forced to 185; rather, 100 is added to whatever you set it to. Level advancement rate is far more subject to personal taste than the other uncap settings, so I wanted to keep it accessible without forcing you to manually change the rest.

The old level formula applied a multiplier to each skill based on whether it was part of your class/specialization, added them up, and divided the total by a preset factor. The result was then adjusted to line up each character's starting attributes with level 1. Level cap was not explicitly set.

The new formula throws away the per-skill multipliers. Level 1 is set to match up with starting skills, the level cap is set to match up with the maximum possible skill total, and everything in between is calculated by range comparison.

In mode 0 (default), the formula is:
LevelCap is defined in nGCDCalc.ini. Default 85, uncapped 185.
Offset = the total of the character's starting skills. Usually 325.
Max = the total of the character's maximum skills. Usually 2100, or uncapped 4200.
Pool = the total of the character's current skills.
Factor = (LevelCap - 1) / (Max - Offset)
Level = 1 + (Factor * (Pool - Offset))

With everything at defaults, you have 84 levels divided over (2100 - 325) = 1775 skill points, which is one level per 21.13 skill increases. Since there are 21 skills, this basically means that raising every skill 1 point gains you 1 level. Uncapping doesn't change the level 1 offset, so adding 100 to the level cap gives almost exactly the same outcome (21.06, off by a fraction of a point).

In mode 1, this same calculation is done for each individual skill rather than on the total of all skills. Each skill then contributes 1/21 of your total level. Skills which start higher will level you up faster per point gained; this is similar to the effect of the old per-skill multipliers. It's more punishing to characters who play entirely to their class skills (you'll reach higher levels, and tougher enemies, sooner), and easier for characters who develop all their skills more equally.

When upgrading from RC6 to this I should still run NGCD.CLEAN then save and install the new version on the cleaned save correct?

Always best to do this, yes. Especially if you're updating from a pre-2.0 version.

» Wed Mar 30, 2011 3:40 am

185 is default with SimpleUncap, yes. But unlike the other settings affected by SimpleUncap, it's not forced to 185; rather, 100 is added to whatever you set it to. Level advancement rate is far more subject to personal taste than the other uncap settings, so I wanted to keep it accessible without forcing you to manually change the rest.

The old level formula applied a multiplier to each skill based on whether it was part of your class/specialization, added them up, and divided the total by a preset factor. The result was then adjusted to line up each character's starting attributes with level 1. Level cap was not explicitly set.

The new formula throws away the per-skill multipliers. Level 1 is set to match up with starting skills, the level cap is set to match up with the maximum possible skill total, and everything in between is calculated by range comparison.

In mode 0 (default), the formula is:
LevelCap is defined in nGCDCalc.ini. Default 85, uncapped 185.
Offset = the total of the character's starting skills. Usually 325.
Max = the total of the character's maximum skills. Usually 2100, or uncapped 4200.
Pool = the total of the character's current skills.
Factor = (LevelCap - 1) / (Max - Offset)
Level = 1 + (Factor * (Pool - Offset))

With everything at defaults, you have 84 levels divided over (2100 - 325) = 1775 skill points, which is one level per 21.13 skill increases. Since there are 21 skills, this basically means that raising every skill 1 point gains you 1 level. Uncapping doesn't change the level 1 offset, so adding 100 to the level cap gives almost exactly the same outcome (21.06, off by a fraction of a point).

In mode 1, this same calculation is done for each individual skill rather than on the total of all skills. Each skill then contributes 1/21 of your total level. Skills which start higher will level you up faster per point gained; this is similar to the effect of the old per-skill multipliers. It's more punishing to characters who play entirely to their class skills (you'll reach higher levels, and tougher enemies, sooner), and easier for characters who develop all their skills more equally.

Always best to do this, yes. Especially if you're updating from a pre-2.0 version.

Thank you for clear explanation. I don't know which mode to choose. I guess I will think over it on the plane ride home. I am going to have a whole new game to play this winter, it seems.

Thanks for the updates!
- Tomlong75210

» Wed Mar 30, 2011 2:40 am

Thank you very much. =]
Tom, I'm also confused about what mode to pick. =0

» Wed Mar 30, 2011 5:10 am

In the hopes of helping your decision a bit more...

Mode 0 is default because it's more fair. Every skill counts equally, so you can't play the "majors as minors" trick. Two characters with the same skills will have the same level, regardless of how they started. Since they'll have the same attributes regardless of level mode, this seems like the proper outcome to me. Also, class skills advance faster through practice, so they'll level you quicker anyway.

Mode 1 is more like vanilla, in that you can spend more time on miscellaneous skills without affecting game difficulty as much. If you're the sort who likes to spend a lot of time in town working on mercantile, speechcraft, alchemy and armorer, and you'd rather not find yourself facing tougher enemies because of it, Mode 1 might serve. On the other hand, if you pick a class and play to its strengths, you might find the enemies outpacing you.

I've considered making an optional attributes mode, where what you started with has more of an effect on the rest of your stats. Two characters with identical skills and race would not have identical attributes if they started with different classes; this would be better balanced with Mode 1. Pre-2.0 versions tried to achieve this with the class/specialization exponents, but the effect was always either too small or too big. I've got some other ideas to try, we'll see if they yield anything worth keeping...

» Wed Mar 30, 2011 8:33 am

In the hopes of helping your decision a bit more...

Mode 0 is default because it's more fair. Every skill counts equally, so you can't play the "majors as minors" trick. Two characters with the same skills will have the same level, regardless of how they started. Since they'll have the same attributes regardless of level mode, this seems like the proper outcome to me. Also, class skills advance faster through practice, so they'll level you quicker anyway.

Mode 1 is more like vanilla, in that you can spend more time on miscellaneous skills without affecting game difficulty as much. If you're the sort who likes to spend a lot of time in town working on mercantile, speechcraft, alchemy and armorer, and you'd rather not find yourself facing tougher enemies because of it, Mode 1 might serve. On the other hand, if you pick a class and play to its strengths, you might find the enemies outpacing you.

I've considered making an optional attributes mode, where what you started with has more of an effect on the rest of your stats. Two characters with identical skills and race would not have identical attributes if they started with different classes; this would be better balanced with Mode 1. Pre-2.0 versions tried to achieve this with the class/specialization exponents, but the effect was always either too small or too big. I've got some other ideas to try, we'll see if they yield anything worth keeping...

The attributes idea sounds nice. I agree with you about mode 0 over mode 1. When I think of a skill allowing a player to level faster, that sounds most sensible if you think of the character as a specific type (i.e., raising the blade skill should make a paladin level more quickly or something.) However, if a character is not really defined by his or her class, raising any skill should have the same influence.

Mode 0 is the one for me, at least for now.

Thanks again!
- Tomlong75210

» Wed Mar 30, 2011 1:52 am

I've considered making an optional attributes mode, where what you started with has more of an effect on the rest of your stats. Two characters with identical skills and race would not have identical attributes if they started with different classes; this would be better balanced with Mode 1. Pre-2.0 versions tried to achieve this with the class/specialization exponents, but the effect was always either too small or too big. I've got some other ideas to try, we'll see if they yield anything worth keeping...

Sounds interesting and would consider using Mode 1 if this is eventually included. I use Mode 0 currently and enjoy it, however I do sometimes enjoy playing the mercantile/speechcraft game when I'm not in the mood to go adventuring, and sometimes if doing this too much it can make the game very hard. It's not anything I'd consider gamebreaking in any way though, and in some ways I suppose it makes sense roleplaying-wise aswell. If I ignored my normal training to focus on something so entirely different as speechcraft, while others kept focusing on their combatskills - clearly they'd eventually get an edge.

» Tue Mar 29, 2011 11:11 pm

http://www.tesnexus.com/downloads/file.php?id=14065

Better detection and handling of Ability effects, particularly Drains.
Strict bounds-checking on level calculation. If calculated level comes out lower than 1 or higher than LevelCap, it will be forced to 1.
Now requires OBSE v0020. For most people this is a non-essential update, so it's OK if you want to wait for that to come out of beta.

» Wed Mar 30, 2011 6:14 am

Thanks for the update! :celebration:

» Wed Mar 30, 2011 3:45 am

Hey, tejon, which script are the calculations for skill influence and health and magicka influence located? I want to take a look at them and make some changes in the .ini so that my character becomes more powerful quicker.

EDIT:

Nevermind. I opened it up in the CS and figured it out.

» Tue Mar 29, 2011 9:28 pm

Wasn't sure in which mod-thread to post this or where to begin looking as I haven't personally ran into anything like this before, but since nGCD is in charge of my leveling (along with progress and some of your other mods) I figured this might be the place to start. If this is a common issue I've managed to miss previously I'm sorry.

I finished up my loadorder finally for my WAC-game and started the game. Got through the tutorial dungeon and into the open world. I run around for awhile exploring the new sights that various mods I haven't played with before added when I decided to check on my skill-percentages since I noticed the nGCD meter wasn't showing any progress even though I knew I had gained skill in marksmanship (which is a major skill). When I open up the character tab I am greeted with this:

http://img.ihack.se/images/1312940146103.jpg

I am puzzled as to what is causing this and I hope someone might have an idea.

Load order:

Spoiler

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Info that doesn't show here: I have obse v20 beta, and I'm using nGCD 2.1.1.
I also have elys uncapper and have made the proper edit in ngcd.ini

» Wed Mar 30, 2011 1:25 am

That's... pretty crazy. :blink: Okay, this is 100% guesswork, but here's the scenario I'm predicting: your UI mod is getting confused by Skill Decay. Unless it's been updated for OBSE v0020, it's calculating those percentages manually, and for optimization it probably only does that when you gain a skill point. And it's explicitly testing for gains, so when you LOSE a point it doesn't recalculate. This leads to a bad divisor in the percentage calculation, which in turn causes an integer to wrap, giving that crazy high number.

So in a nutshell, nothing's actually wrong, it's just a display glitch. You gained a skill point, but then lost it to decay. nGCD only goes by what you actually have, so it's as if you never gained that point. (On that note, did you catch the Skill Decay 1.1 update? It makes this situation less common.)

Now, as I said, that's a guess. I could be wrong. Pay attention in-game and if things are happening that don't seem consistent with that explanation, we'll take another look.

» Wed Mar 30, 2011 4:42 am

That's... pretty crazy. :blink: Okay, this is 100% guesswork, but here's the scenario I'm predicting: your UI mod is getting confused by Skill Decay. Unless it's been updated for OBSE v0020, it's calculating those percentages manually, and for optimization it probably only does that when you gain a skill point. And it's explicitly testing for gains, so when you LOSE a point it doesn't recalculate. This leads to a bad divisor in the percentage calculation, which in turn causes an integer to wrap, giving that crazy high number.

So in a nutshell, nothing's actually wrong, it's just a display glitch. You gained a skill point, but then lost it to decay. nGCD only goes by what you actually have, so it's as if you never gained that point. (On that note, did you catch the Skill Decay 1.1 update? It makes this situation less common.)

Now, as I said, that's a guess. I could be wrong. Pay attention in-game and if things are happening that don't seem consistent with that explanation, we'll take another look.

Sounds like a logical explanation. And yes btw, I did grab the 1.1 update for Skill Decay. It seems a bit weird I'd get skill decay on marksmanship however since it was the skill I had used the most in the little time I played (and somehow it was 49 there, I only had one skillgain. Again, very strange). The loadorder of Skill Decay and Anyclass shouldn't matter, right? Since it's all scripts anyway from the looks of it. Anyway I loaded an earlier save now just to see if the same thing will happen again.

» Wed Mar 30, 2011 4:41 am

(and somehow it was 49 there, I only had one skillgain. Again, very strange).

So you should have been going to 41 Marksman, there? Okay, that's definitely odd. Nothing to do with nGCD, though. Not Progress either... botched settings could make you gain a rank every time you fire, but not multiple ranks at once. Sounds like some other script decided to give you a bonus.

» Wed Mar 30, 2011 7:07 am

So you should have been going to 41 Marksman, there? Okay, that's definitely odd. Nothing to do with nGCD, though. Not Progress either... botched settings could make you gain a rank every time you fire, but not multiple ranks at once. Sounds like some other script decided to give you a bonus.

Yep I should've been at 41 there. Loaded a save that was only slightly older, and there my marksman was at 40. Will have to look around some and see what it could be, maybe the Shadow Ranger addon messes around with marksmanship some.. Anyway thanks for the input.

» Wed Mar 30, 2011 9:23 am

Hi Tejon, looking forward to start using nGCD. Have ugraded OBSE to 20 and downloaded v2.1.1, then tried to make an omod using OBMM. For some reason, OBMM doen't pick up the omod conversion data directory and install script you've provided. I think I can fix this up manually by adding the script and options folder via OBMM manual features, but perhaps there's a problem in your download file stopping the conversion data getting auto detected by OBMM?

» Wed Mar 30, 2011 12:33 am

Update to previous post: If I use OBMM's 'add archive' button to add the .7z archive, no auto-detect of omod conversion data takes place. If I unpack the archive, then use the 'add folder' button in OBMM on the unpacked archive, the auto-detect works as expected. Strange, I haven't seen this before with other mods that include omod conversion data.

» Wed Mar 30, 2011 11:21 am

Update to previous post: If I use OBMM's 'add archive' button to add the .7z archive, no auto-detect of omod conversion data takes place. If I unpack the archive, then use the 'add folder' button in OBMM on the unpacked archive, the auto-detect works as expected. Strange, I haven't seen this before with other mods that include omod conversion data.

Wow, that's definitely a bit weird. Probably something to do with me hand-editing the conversion data instead of doing it from within OBMM. Bah, guess I'll have to do it "right" next time.

» Tue Mar 29, 2011 9:31 pm

Hey Tejon, does nGCD only cover Magicka regen, or does it cover Health Regen as well? I am trying to figure this out because SM Combat Regen handles regen for all three derived stats, and I need to know which things to comment out for compatibility's sake. I want to keep nGCD's regen settings, but have battle penalized somewhat. It's too bad there isn't just some modifier that can be applied in battle...