Hey,

I know Xilverbulet knows how to work with NiMeshParticleSystems, but he's not been active for a while by the looks of things and I'm not familiar with anyone else has successfully worked with these systems.

I'm having problems substituting an alternative mesh (i.e. a flat surface) into the particle system derived from the rainlight.nif. I can get NifSkope to save without error, but the CS immediately crashes when it tries to load the nif. Is anyone able to help me understand the constraints/options for this system?

Vac

Your first problem is your most likely substituting the RainDropInstance Mesh and that mesh does nothing it is nothing more then the base mesh used in Max as the Particle Base object -> its not even used in the Rain.nifs as its an invisible worthless object.

The meshes you need to change are the ones listed under the NiMeshParticleSystem -> NiPSysMeshUpdateModifier -> NiNode (NewRoot) -> NiTriShape (RainDropInstance:0).

Its also worth mentioning that the CivIV exporter is capable of exporting these fully functional with Oblivion, of course you need to know how to set these up in Max first, but that is easy just read a Max Particle System Tutorial.

Also a very common mistake is people wanting to use a Mesh as an emitter vs using a Mesh as a Particle -> Xilver used quite a few Mesh Emitters but I do not remember any instance of him ever using a Mesh as a particle -> this is especially true for most people as the CS kicks back an error if you try to use this type of system anywhere other then as weather but they do work as Activators and such -> they also if not set up within their limits will cause the game to crash non-stop.

Actually, it turned out my major problem was that while NifSkope doesn't mind, the CS and the game can't deal with particle meshes using NiTriStrips. Once I tried using a NiTriShape I managed to get it working with few problems.

http://i285.photobucket.com/albums/ll61/Revanchism/Particle%20Effect%20Resources/Fallingbrancheseffectanyone2.jpg, http://i285.photobucket.com/albums/ll61/Revanchism/Particle%20Effect%20Resources/Couldntresist.jpg, http://i285.photobucket.com/albums/ll61/Revanchism/Particle%20Effect%20Resources/FallingLeavesprototype.jpg, I haven't really tested the limits yet, but Xilver's definitely used them extensively.

At some point soon I'm going to try and set up a particle system on my particle mesh and see if I can get iterative and/or cumulative effects, i.e. fireworks, trails, self-organising systems, that kind of thing.

Thanks for the advice in any case: I really wish I could model... Maybe I should have another go at that sometime soon.

Vac

The game does not support Emitting Particles from Instanced Geometry (Particles of Any Type) -> setting this up will only result in the Base Object Emitting the secondary particles and nothing else.

Besides there are other ways of doing Secondary Particle Emission -> as I said before just do some Particle Tutorials and you will start to understand the limits and possibilities with game based Particle Systems vs 3D Application Particles Uses

FireWorks are not secondary emission they are nothing more then 2 or more Particle Systems Sequenced to effect using an animated Mesh or Node as the Primary Emission Point -> there are several Max Tutorials that teaches this exact technique in relation to Game Based Particle System Exports -> ignore all of the Tutorials Dealing with Particle Flows as they are not exportable.

Its also worth mentioning that since all your doing is Copy/Paste into Beth Nifs your going to run into an effects wall pretty quickly since the only available Systems are Beths Rain's that are nothing but Blizzard Systems and the most interesting and freeing System Type would absolutely be a Particle Array which do not exist in any of the Beth Files, learning how to set these up in Max and export them would help with the effects looking correct -> also being able to set up your own Space Warps helps considerably with effects looking correct.

This ofcourse only applies if you have Access to Max 6-8, otherwise you are stuck re-using Beth Systems and Assets.

At present, this is not the case. I was offered access to an old Max license a while back, but I'm not sure just how old, nor whether the offer is still available, i.e. someone else took it up. Also not sure about whether it's ok to transfer that license, but that's a whole different matter to this subject. I could pursue that. It looks useful for setting up colliders if nothing else: they're an absolute nightmare to set up nicely in NifSkope as there's no way to visualise them.
I had to do some reading to find out what the Max terms you were using meant, but I'm still not sure about the Space Warp function... Is that the NiPSysAirFieldModifier (I never worked out how to get this to work), the NiPSysGravityModifier, the NiPSysTurbulenceFieldModifier (another one I never got to work), or the NiPSysVortexFieldModifier? Or some other one?

The only emitters and modifiers listed in NifSkope that I couldn't get to work were the NiPSysTrailEmitter, and the NiPSysAirFieldModifier and the NiPSysTurbulenceFieldModifier as I already mentioned. As to being limited, the quick check of Max tutorials I have looked at today haven't shown anything I can't already do (though maybe a way to do it faster, like visualising collision modifiers). I'm not really stuck re-using stuff because Nifskope allows to me to insert and delete emitters, modifiers and controllers at will. You just have to learn how to set them up correctly.

Vac

yeah space warps would include all those.

I have only used a wind, gravity, and deflectors in Beth games. I also did something with pbomb, but never tried doing anything in game or even exporting it.

heh, you must be pretty expert at manipulting psystems in nifskope, i wouldn't be able to half of what i can do in max, let alone have the patience to in nifskope. :wacko:

Do you have a nif I could take a look at with this modifier? I'm guessing it's an AirField modifier and I never got that one to work. I'd *love* to see how to set it up and get it to function.

I learned most everything through trial, error and bucketloads of persistence.

Vac

lol wind just exports as a NiPSysGravityModifier.

edit: unless saiden passes you off some baddass psystems. I can export any kind of set up if you need to see how they work... if they do even work in game that is, i dare say some don't. :shrug:

edit2: i looked at my space warps and forces just now... and have no idea what NiPSysTurbulenceFieldModifier, NiPSysTrailEmitter, NiPSysAirFieldModifier actually are.

I did get a NiPSysBombModifier to work, but surprisingly my path follow doesn't export properly, i was expecting that one to definitly work. I suppose i can just animate a psystem along a path constraint to get a very similar thing.

Well considering about 30-40% of the entire NifSkope PSystem Library does not work within Oblivion because they are either Too Old, Too New or just plain out never added for Oblivion to understand -> so I know for a fact that those are not the ONLY Modifiers/Emitters you could not get to work !

Gravity and Wind are the Same thing they only export with different settings -> both Modifiers export as Gravity.

As for those Mod's you listed as the only ones you could not get to work -> none of them work in Oblivion as they are for other games.



I have not shared my Oblivion work in some time though http://www.fallout3nexus.com/downloads/file.php?id=9396 does contain a few for FO3 -> a few Videos can be found http://www.youtube.com/user/SaidenStorm, I suggest looking at the http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YF6bnoZemeY -> that effect would be nearly impossible to sequence in NifSkope -> everything that exists for SSP also exists in some way for Oblivion including all of the magiceffects/projectiles and creatures.

I also noticed someone asked you to create some creature with Particles that took a Visual form -> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t-YZRPzfeO4 -> they show up briefly throughout the video, it is Possible though not easily with using just NifSkope and absolutely not possible without an execellent knowledge of what each modifiers capabilities are and how to mix them to get compound effects.

Saiden,in terms of max space warps, I take it path follow doesn't work? the civ4 exporter doesn't throw any errors at me with any of the forces, but some just don't export anything, like vortex, I take it i am just being a nub?

I was using a super spray system if that makes any difference.

Sadly they do not work, though Path follow can be faked with a PArray and setting up a few mesh emission points and animating them along your path.

Vortex/Motor is one I would have killed for ! its insanely useful -> without them trying to get particle to rotate around a central axis is a total pain as it requires you to set the system into local space then to rotate the emitter which kills all world based interaction the only world modifier available for Oblivion is the BSWindModifier but I have made quite extensive use of this modifier to make my fires blow in the wind using the real games wind direction I also use it to disperse the particles of a few of my magic effects.

No vortex, pooh... maybe if they don't export..nifskope? perhaps Vacuity got something going on there.. :lightbulb:
I can see how NiPSysVortexFieldModifier is basically supposed to be a vortex space warp.

anyway, i just realized, the power i have over particles in max, just from all the controllers i could potentially export in the animation. There is no way to set that up in nifskope in a hurry.

Well well well... NiPSysVortexFieldModifier does indeed work ! :) -> just needed me to actually do it, since I already know what all of the fields are from work I have done with other games that their exporters support that type of modifier.

It only controls Orbital Speed, Orbital Range, Orbital Damping and Orbital Direction

NiPSysGravityFieldModifier seems to control Axial Drop, Axial Drop Range, Axial Drop Damping.

NiPSysAirFieldModifier does work but it does not at first seem to be any of the missing Vortex Fields.

NiPSysDragFieldModifier works, does exactly whats its suppost to.

NiPSysTurbulenceFieldModifier works, does exactly what its suppost to.

The Fields of Radial Pull, Radial Pull Range or Radial pull Damping, Taper Length and Taper Curve are seemingly missing.

Hmm, seems I missed a bit.Hmm, well, blanket statements are not smart, so I should have been more careful what I typed. I'm talking about the stuff that shows up prefixed NiPSysxxx, and all the work I did learning how to use them was done over a year ago, so if there's new stuff added since then, I won't know it. Still, looking through the list of stuff, there's nothing that I'm seeing that was a no-go other than the ones I mentioned. There were some controllers that I never had cause to use, so I suppose I never got them to work. The NiPSysMeshxxx stuff I just worked out how to use this weekend (after I posted the thread), and I have to confess I don't remember much about either of the NiPSysDragxxx modifiers and the NiPSysGravityPlaneModifier, but my notes say I got them to work, even if I didn't use them in VASE. What am I missing that doesn't work?I could get a nif to load in the game with this modifier "active", but could never notice any kind of effect from it. As the NifSkope annotation for the entry is non-existant I ended up giving up after a while experimenting.Could you share a working nif?
I've been using the vortex modifier for over a year, it's an effect used in the Virvatuli in VASE.

Vac

This:Rather like the statement that so many of the particle system elements "do not work within Oblivion" (which you've found out for yourself to not be the case), http://i285.photobucket.com/albums/ll61/Revanchism/Particle%20Effect%20Resources/Particlesfromparticles.jpg.

I can provide a sample nif if you don't believe me, but I expect to be using the process often enough in the future.

Vac

NiPSysAirFieldModifier sounds similar to wind, Apparently it's used to modify the velocity of the particles and applying force.

Maybe Blanket Statements are not the best method but lets examine whats useable and whats not.

NiAuto -> 2 Blocks -> Used in Morrowind -> 0 work in Ob.
BS -> 9 Blocks -> Used in FO3/FONV -> 1 Works in Ob.
Ni3ds -> 1 Block -> Not Sure Where Used -> 0 Works in Ob.
NiBS -> 2 Blocks -> Used in Morrowind -> 0 Works in Ob.
NiGravity -> 1 Block -> Used In Morrowind -> 0 Works in Ob.
NiMesh -> 2 Blocks -> Used In Ob -> 2 Work in Ob.
NiRotating -> 2 Blocks -> Used in Morrowind -> 0 Work in Ob.
NiPS -> 28 Blocks -> Used in Morrowind among other older games -> 0 Work in Ob.
NiPSys -> 37 Blocks -> Used in Ob -> 37 Work in Ob, Not all are decoded for NifSkope though decoding the leftovers is very simple.
NiParticles -> 11 Blocks -> Used in Morrowind and 1 for Ob -> 1 Works in Ob.
NiPlanar/SphericalCollider -> 2 Blocks -> Used in Morrowind -> 0 Work in Ob.

Total Blocks 97
Ob Usable Blocks 41
Percent Particle System Blocks Usable in Oblivion 42%

I think the mis-communication came from the fact that I was referring to all available blocks and you seem to be only referencing the NiPSys blocks.



Seems to work from the Pic -> I did this for an Ice Effect and it did exactly like I said it only emitted from the Base Instance node and none of the Instances -> I will go over it again some time later.

I will decode all of the FieldModifiers and submit them to Alphax as I always do when I decode parts of these games -> look for the correct settings on the NifTools Webpage, I already have AirField completed.

Then we agree? Fantastic. I'll be more careful what I type, but actually I had no clue many of those had anything to do with particles.Cool. That should make it much, much easier for me to get working the ones I couldn't get before.

I'm sure I'm not the only person who'll be happy about that! Thankyou!

Vac

Do not get to excited :) AirField is a jumbled mess the entire Nif.xml reads all of its lower fields data types incorrectly -> I still need to when I get time re-write the nif.xml to read the changes correctly -> then start from scratch testing to make sure everything is correct -> I may need to ask TK for help as he is far better with XML then I am.

The other Field Modifiers were all straight forward and are done as they only require a name change within the Nif.xml to make sense to people altering them in NifSkope.

Yes, I spent hours last year working out what such helpful descriptions as "unknown float 2", "unknown float 3", "unknown boolean 567" (ok, not quite the last one) actually appeared to do to the system, or indeed, what values I needed to be using to even get it to do anything. It was lots of fun. :brokencomputer:

Vac

Here is the GameBryo definition for Air Field

NiPSysAirFieldModifier
Is used for updating Particle Velocity to simulate air movement effects such as wind, fans or wake. The Air Field can be defined as air fan blowing air in a specified direction creating the desired visual effects by adding forces to particles.

Basically its a Wind Modifier.

Now the real rub come in that I pillaged Oblivion.exe and Gamebryo and found my missing Radial Pull !

NiPSysRadialFieldModifier
Its basically a 2 Dimensional gravity, which is exactly what Radial Pull is -> now the problem comes in the fact that this block as never been found and thus NifSkope has no definition for it.

I have started to Hex Edit this block together from the base class of NiPSysFieldModifier and some GameBryo docs so I at least have an idea of how it was implemented but it will take time to get a working complete Block that will not crash Oblivion or cause the Nif to just error cull. I already have the basic Define for it in the Nif.xml and it will open and save within NifSkope but causes Oblivion to Error Cull the nif so its still missing required data I will have to Hex Edit into the file.

If someone knows of a game that has this Block if you can send me the .nif in question as it would make updating NifSkope considerably easier.

EDIT:

I found and added a new Controller Type that was defined in the Exe but not available in NifSkope.

NiPSysFieldAttenuationCtlr -> does exactly what it says -> Animates Attenuation.

Superb! Those are both going to be very useful for me. Thankyou!

I hope someone can help you with the block. As far as I know I don't have any other games that use these mesh formats, so alas I can't help. I just don't have very many games.

Vac

I have finished constructing the NiPSysRadialFieldModifier it will not crash any of the games that can use it but its still missing some important data decodes the Data types deal with Radial Pull Types.

The NiPSysAirFieldModifier the Lower Fields are confounding -> if I could get a hold of the original.nif used to add this into NifSkope and the game it came from it would be easier to decode this completely, as is I also added the Individual Fields Controllers so it can be used but you need the Controllers to set the values correctly.

Updated Blocks (3) -> Blocks I will be updating so the information makes sense.
NiPSysFieldModifier -> Updated the Unknowns
NiPSysTurbulenceFieldModifier -> Updated the Unknowns
NiPSysAirFieldModifier -> This one is Annoying !! -> I included the Ctlr's for AirFriction, InheritVelocity and Spread so just use those to set the fields.

Completely New Blocks (13) -> All Tested and function in theses games CivIV, Oblivion, FO3 and FONV.
NiPSysRadialFieldModifier -> RadialType field is an unknown Enum or Flag needs more information about GameBryo's Implememtation to finish this block.
NiPSysFieldMagnitudeCtlr
NiPSysFieldAttenuationCtlr
NiPSysFieldMaxDistanceCtlr
NiPSysAirFieldAirFrictionCtlr
NiPSysAirFieldInheritVelocityCtlr
NiPSysAirFieldSpreadCtlr
NiPSysInitialRotSpeedCtlr
NiPSysInitialRotSpeedVarCtlr
NiPSysInitialRotAngleCtlr
NiPSysInitialRotAngleVarCtlr
NiPSysEmitterPlanarAngleCtlr
NiPSysEmitterPlanarAngleVarCtlr

I am in awe, and deeply grateful! I can't wait for the updated NifSkope. No problem with using the new controllers to set fields.

I just spotted an embarassing error in one of my VaPER nifs; curse not being able to visualise particle systems in NifSkope. I can't wait to get a copy of Max now.

Vac

I went over this again and its seems to be exactly as I said the game does not support it -> you can hack it together by sticking the secondary particle System under the NewRoot node but doing this disables the ZBuffer, Alpha Blend and it also screws up emission points -> as the secondary Particle Systems are loaded as Particle Definitions within the Scene Graph and as such are only able to be acted upon and not create their own reads and writes.

I have to ask did you even try the systems ingame because in the Editor they look good but in-game everything goes to pot -> that one you linked to might not be the best to show what I mean is wrong and not supported but These images show the problem perfectly as the Emission points are getting messed up and the Z Buffer is not functioning correctly also alpha blending is near broken as you can see the particle edges.

The Giants Ice Shards are the original Mesh Particle and the Flames and Lightning are the secondary systems both set up a little different -> both having issues.

http://img51.imageshack.us/i/cs1j.jpg/
http://img573.imageshack.us/i/cs2.jpg/
http://img717.imageshack.us/i/ob1q.jpg/
http://img51.imageshack.us/i/ob2gu.jpg/

If you did something other then link the secondary particle systems under the NewRoot node and are not having these issues I would like to see your .nif otherwise the uses for this are very limited.