Now just a bit of a disclaimer, i know its fiction/fantasy. But i'm always a fan of explanations, timelines, continuity. Even some of the most absurd fantasies can have some form of logic and explanation that place them within our own universe. Star Wars, a science fantasy for example, takes place in our universe in a galaxy far far away with a case of parallel evolution.

Now i know what you're thinking, a sci-fi fan with a fantasy game is generally a bad mix as far as thinking too hardly about the logic of the whole universe of the setting. But sometimes they have explanations. Sometimes not. I want to know if the planet of Nirn, fits somewhere within our universe. Past, future, present, whatever. Now obviously it isnt Earth, and this is a case of parallel evolution (Or, not. Perhaps it is just a form favored by the gods/creators..) There is obviously some overarching lore to the creation of everything seen, so perhaps there is some form of explanation as to how this planet fits in with everything else we know. At first i thought it was obviously a terrestrial realm somewhere in our own galaxy, as the milky way's galactic horizon is clearly visible in the night sky, but then i heard mankar cameron's explanation that Tamriel (Or rather, the Planet is resides on, nirn) is only another realm of Oblivion.

Visits to the wiki and various fansites have only.....exaserbated the confusion regaurding the creation of Mundus and Nirn, as well as its moons. Mundus, is it the universe itself, does all that is occuring in Tamriel take place far in the past, during the initial creation of the universe itself, nirn representing the first mortal and terrestrial area created? Sources say Their world, and eight other worlds present in this solar system called simply "Mundus" (Which means World or Universe in latin) float within the void between oblivion realms. The sun is but a puncture into the mortal realm, its light granting the magicka and powers used (Some form of biological reaction to the radiation being emitted, obviously) and stars formed by fleeing gods, as it were (I always notice the parellels of the nine divine and their being nine planets present within the solar system, according to the wiki. That may be mere coincidence, however, as they were all created before Tiber Septim existed, let alone when he ascended as Talos).

Moderator: We are not going into a discussion of any way in which Tamrielic foundational myths are anything like real-world religion.

Could there be? Am i completely out of my mind and spending far too much time staring at the sky as i roam Cyrodill? Is there actually an explanation, present or not? Do any of you have any ideas? And before you say it, i know its a game, i know its fiction, but so is every other franchise in existence. That doesnt make it any less fun to explain, speculate, and discuss, given the nature of a discussion forum...


Either way, i must be playing this game way too much, i'm obviously *too* immersed(if such a thing is possible) into the universe if i'm trying to apply logic. Obviously i've gone mad, but thats beside the point...

Nirn is aplanet, nirn is the planet where tamriel, a continent, is on, Oblivion is In bewteen Nirn and Mundas?

Mundus is like our Universe. Nirn is like our Earth. Oblivion is what fills Mundus.

And if you read all the books in game at least once, you'd know that.

I did. No need to insult my intelligence or my book reading. Har har. But nothing is ever made completely clear or spelled out and is often open for interpretation (Or perhaps not. Its never made clear if its to be taken as literal). The way things are explained in the wiki and other places only further confuse the issue.



Well, what does that mean? I figured Nirn was the planet, and Mundus was atleast the realm within which the planet resides, but various readings indicate there is nothing beyond nirn (Other than the other planets) and that the stars are not actually other stars. Which confuses the issue. Is Mundus actually like our universe (or actually our universe) or does it just preside of the local solar system? How much is metaphor and what is literal? A Galactic Plane is clearly visible(In ES IV, atleast) in the night sky, and yet many explanations act like it doesnt exist

Nirn is the planet on which the Elder Scrolls is set. It floats in the void of Oblivion and is, for all intents and purposes, the majority of the realm known as Mundus. Sources often use the terms Nirn and Mundus synonymously, despite the technical differences in the two terms. Nirn was created during the Dawn Era by the Aedra and Anu-aligned spirits, based on Lorkhan's inspiration and Magnus' designs.

Tamriel is the main continent of Nirn and is its mythic and symbolic center. Tamriel is split into 9 provinces: Black Marsh, Cyrodiil, Elsweyr, Hammerfell, High Rock, Morrowind, Skyrim, Summerset Isle, and Valenwood.

Other continents on Nirn are mentioned in various texts, but have not generally been shown on maps or described in detail.

Akavir is a continent east of Tamriel, including four regions/races: Kamal, Tsaesci, Tang Mo, and Ka Po' Tun.
Atmora is a continent north of Tamriel, former homeland of the ancestors of modern Nords.
Yokuda was a continent west of Tamriel and the original homeland of the Redguards, but it sank into the sea.
Nirn has two moons, Masser and Secunda. The other astral bodies in the sky above Nirn are believed to actually be the spheres of the Aedra and Daedra, as seen from the mortal plane. The sun and stars are also punctures in the veil of Oblivion, through which the light of Aetherius shines into Mundus. One exception is the snake constellation, Sithis, which simply 'drifts' about the sky. It is made up of "unstars."

Hope this helps

Disclaimer: I am by no means an expert, and probably have no idea what I'm talking about in the long run.

Nirn isn't really a planet in the physical sense that it's not a spherical lump of rock, at least from what I've read and what I remember. Rather, it's a plane of existence. Just as the Daedric planes are not literal planets, they are infinite yet separate planes.

In fact, though I do not remember which source it came from, the night sky in Tamriel is actually one giant illusion, automatically created by the mind of mortals to give some form of spatial sense to the structure of Nirn, mundus, the spokes of the wheel, the realms of Oblivion that lie between the spokes, etc, etc. I'll have to start digging through the Imperial Library to see where it was that I read that...
But this might interest you:http://www.imperial-library.info/obscure_text/vehk_teaching.shtml#3. In his description of the wheel, he gives kind of a basic metaphysical "structure" to the universe.

EDIT: Scratch my Nirn not being physically a planet, this http://www.imperial-library.info/obscure_text/cosmology.shtml seems to cast some doubt or interpretation on that:

However, I do think that these quotes from the same document seem to verify my night sky comment:



So to sum it up, no, the structure of the universe in TES is far from the same as ours. As an example, I do believe they quite literally mean that the stars are the holes left in in the fabric of the divider between Aetherius and Oblivion, instead of giant balls of insanely hot gas that have just had mythological connotations attached to them.

Meh. Look at the structure of the wheel. It might make more sense then.

I always wondered - if planets are just perceived as sphere-like by men/mer due to their infinite size and mass, how can Oblivion be described as planet-like from a standpoint in Aetherius? Are there any men/mer in Aetherius who have actually seen Oblivion from the outside?

Also, I wonder if Nirn is perceived as a sphere to those living on it (so like Earth and not like a flat surface). If so, you might actually be able to calculate it's size and thus give "infinite" a definite number.

:shrug: I'm afraid I dunno, I'm already into stuff that's too far over my head, but...
If one infinity encapsulates a second infinity, can the first infinity be larger than the second infinity? Or is it all just infinite no matter how you look at it...? I remember my math prof telling my class about some crazy mathematics w/ infinity just for fun, and I thought he talked about some theories that one infinity can indeed be bigger that another infinity... But I don't remember any specifics

EDIT: Goodness, Proweler or someone needs to come and find this thread and set us all straight, and this should probably get moved to the Lore section anyway.

well lets see, if I have this right, then entire Elder scrolls universe is just what happens when one guy [the Godhead] went bat-[censored] insane and schizo.

I concede your point. I stitched my understanding together over many books (and many months) and could be wrong...

This discussion has gone much too far into real-world religious controversy to continue in its present form on these forums.

I have deleted a previous post and will caution that absolutely no discussion equating real-world religiosity to the status of Tamrielic foundational myths will be allowed in this thread.

Mispost, will edit soon with my new argument should i divise a less controversial one. Delete at will.

Here's another one for you to chew on:
If Nirn is indeed of infinite size, and we assume that it rotates around itself to cause day and night, it would have to rotate at an infinite speed to travel an infinite distance in exactly 24 hours. But if you were to travel at infinite speed, according to Einstein, no time would pass at all ...

or, in simpler terms: Real world rules don't seem to apply =/

why arent we allowed exactly? surely discussing influences and parallels is perfectly healthy?

edit: this thread badly needs to be saved by some lore-expert

aHAH! So that's why Tiber Septim (Talos) ascended and became one of the gods! There was a need for a mortal (well, former mortal), to represent the mortal plane of Oblivion, Nirn, completing the divine panoply.

Be well - Pax
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"Infinite" is a matter of perspective, from where do you start your consideration? The surface of anything round or circular is infinite, in that you can go around it infintely without coming to "the edge". Mobius Strips are especially fun, since they're not only "infinite", they also add the conundrum of being only one-sided. That's more-or-less the concept Einstein had of our universe, "finite in space, infinite in time." In order to break the infinity of such a construct, you must make a measurement orthogonal to the curved surface (the horizontal surface of the plane).

Infinities can be held within infinities, the simplest form of this being when dealing with infinite planes held within an infinite universal void, which can be separated by even less than a Planck Length and yet not be able to ineract with each other, even though each plain represents an entire "universe" for its inhabitants. Yet this doesn't even take into account extra physical dimensions beyond the three we're familiar with... that can get a bit complicated.

Be well - Pax
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Why does it need to travel an infinite distance? For that matter why does it have to travel at all or even move at all? Remember, our ancestors believed the Earth to be the stationary center of the universe, with everything they saw in the sky (sun, moon, stars) rotating around it.

There is some sort of cosmic rhythm to the Oblivion universe, however, since the movements of the moons... (and probably the other planets, as-well-as the constellations)... can be timed. It seems I remember something about Nirn being the center upon which all the heavenly eyes are focused, but I'm not certain, and can't remember where I read it. Does anyone remember anything about that?

Be well - Pax
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Nirn's creation upset the cosmic balance in some way, so everything sort of revolves around it...or maybe just the first part is correct.

Well, I will try to put forward a few of the basics. Much of what I have read here above makes sense in terms of what I know of Lore but may not be adequate explanation. Caveat reader.

There are numerous themes that differ between (I take my life in my hands here but please note I am making no direct parallels with specific religions and if Dogsbody wanted to close the thread and all discussion totally then that was a moderator's privilege and if this contravenes then please remove and I will try to find another way to explain but the OP specifies the contrast between SF and Fantasy necessitating some kind of parallels being drawn) the way that Earthly beliefs and science work in practice and Tamriellian. Where science leaves of and Fantasy (which necessarily has a religious component) part company is easier to pin down in Earthly terms because science and technological progress has established some very basic hard and fast rules and realities that can be directly observed and that are very difficult to refute save by standing on belief and rejecting the generally observable. Though there are areas of science that are still evolving and much is continually being brought into question at 'higher levels' than commonly comprehended or applied.

However in the Mundus of Tamriel reality has some 'extra aspects' that give religion and belief a very different weight:

Magica; day-to-day tangible Gods who can be met, intereacted with and their deeds; a variety of races that do not exist on Earth except as myth or legend; the 'world' of Nirn and the other plane(t)s have only existed for 6,000yrs according to various materials = no time for extensive evolution of Darwinian nature

- The everyday, provable effects of Magica are based on / achieved or produced by application of intelligence (and this next is speculation) quite likely the belief of the user (I hypothesise that belief plays a part because it seems to me that Magica and the nature of the Gods are interlinked);
- The cosmology is believed to have been created from the forms of various Gods or their remains;
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- Tamriel and the twin Moons appears to be made from the body of a God who is now dead;
- Various Gods known as the Earth Bones sacrificed themselves to hold Tamriel and possibly Nirn together - and it is rumoured that at least one of them is waking up;
- There is an 'afterlife' called the Dreamsleeve where Gods sleep when they temporarily die and mortals are stripped of their memories and from which their souls go on to be reborn in a continous cycle;
- Time exists in Tamriel as a force normally controlled and manipulated by a God, but has been manipulated by the creation of Gods by mean technical and esoteric; (heh - I like that word esoteric )
- Oblivion and Nirn are part of something else;
- Oblivion is made up of 'Princedoms' or planes that are formed of and by the substance and imagination of just one Daedric Prince each;
- Nirn appears to be formed by a mass of Gods whose nature is, superficially at least, more mutually interactive and maleable than that of the Daedric Princes;
- I am not at all certain that Nirn is infinite as Oblivion is said to be;
- I have heard talk of Nirn having been circumnavigated;
- The belief of individuals and entire races appears to play a major part in the existance and likely the nature of Gods;
- These differences appear to be centered around the locations of specific race's greatest concentration and numbers - hence a God in one Province may be believed to be and actually be one thing in that Province and a somewhat different thing in another Province - either simultaneously or when viewed through the lense of time;
- Because 'man' maketh gods in Tamriel differing beliefs may cause what appear to be the same Gods to manifest differently in different areas of Tamriel;
- If you can visualise that then you next have to try to ask yourself / appreciate that if a God (whose substance may form an entire plane(t)) can be altered by the belief of a race in fact, then what of that God's past self and deeds? That too must therefore be seen as mutable;
- According to one source everything on Nirn came from the sub-division of the Spirits of the Void into smaller entities during the Age of Wonders and we have not established how all that happened and why it all happened exactly as it did or how each choice was made by each entity;

Much of the above is speculation based on what I have read here, in other forums and 'books' that I found in game or 'books' written by Devs and ex-Devs and posted on other Forums.

There is a lot more speculation that could be added, but sometimes people get upset when their own theories are contradicted so I have tried to keep to something approaching what is regarded as 'common (if disputable) knowledge'.


All this and more - hope this is enough to be getting on with?

Infinite as in, when you start walking to the east from the Imperial City, you would never reach it again although Nirn is a sphere.



Alright, you lost me there.




If the firmament would rotate, the problem is just shifted, because Oblivion is infinite as well =/
It is said that all stars (including Magnus I assume) are equidistant from Nirn, effectively making it the center of Mundus. But if that's true, I don't see how you could determine whether Nirn rotates or the firmament rotates around it ...

However, it seems Nirn is actually finite, according to the cosmology text
http://www.imperial-library.info/obscure_text/cosmology.shtml

btw: do we know for sure that there are seasons in Tamriel?

An important question - What is Oblivion? It is said to surround mundus(the universe of which Nirn resides), and all the daedric realms reside within oblivion. Could oblivion be the void present between universes? The "Laws of Physics" as we know them, only apply to our universe. They are decided during several miliseconds of the initial creation of the universe. The Laws of Physics have been stated, therefor, that they can be largely different and unique to each individual universe if there are indeed multiple universe (which is a popular theory). Each universe in existence, in essence, exists in its own little bubble of existence, incapable of interacting with another directly (no collisions, no flying from one to the other with Pioneer 1 in 2 trillion years).

So then, it is possible that each Daedric prince controls his own universe, which could be infinite or finite as he sees fit, and each realm has its own laws of physics which suit the prince who made it. This, too, apply's to the gods who we know to be real, and their power too seems to be real then (Though somewhat dependant on devotion, according to Gods and Worship in ES IV, think Ori from stargate) so it is possible that when wanting to create a "Mortal world", they created a universe in which the same physical limits of most other naturally occuring universes seem to have, and allow varying species to develope within this universe (and gain the strength of advancing through the trials present in advancing in tech and knowledge in a normal realm) for whatever reason.

Perhaps this was a primary reason for the disagreements among the gods for the creation of this universe, and the regular disgust towards it. It was not special, and was not filled with immortals and lenient and maliable physical laws. Given the presence of a galactic plane in the night sky it lends credence to the fact that this universe is more than nirn. And there is no reason for that not to be so, these gods are of great power after all. It is possible that some of the mortal explanations of the world around nirn (and explanations given by the gods) have been simplified and mystified beyond what actually is the truth (even to these very real gods) so that the current day species of Nirn can understand it. Similiar to Terrans of Earth, we once thought Earth was the Center of all creation, of the universe itself, and everything else was a mere backdrop orbiting around the Earth (and then the orbital chart was made, but still had earth as the center).

Many of the other planets withint he system of Nirn are seen as embodiments of the various gods. This is not unlike (but slightly different) the Roman gods. The God of Mars, a roman warrior god and a god of fertility and vegitation. The God of Jupiter, the most worshipped of the roman gods, only rivalled by the roman god of Mars. etc. etc. So it seems similiar explanations of creation are present here in Tamriel. There are many subtle parallels between greek and roman mythology and Tamrielic mythology to ignore. Its obvious that current knowledge and a huge involvement with the mythical gods at the time has influence the peoples view of how the universe works, but that doesnt exactly make it an accurate view. I hold no doubt that the gods did make this universe, but i belive how and in what form they made it is misunderstood and filled with metaphor and mythology due to a lack of understanding regaurding astronomy.

Again this comes back to the Galactic Plane. One can give the illusion of stars without a galactic plane, and yet it is very clear in the sky, like it use to be on Earth. FYI in the past, before light pollution, everyone could see the galactic plane (or galactic horizon) of the milky way galaxy dominate the night sky. This seems to be the strongest indicator (Besides the fact Nirn rotates, has 2 moons that clearly move and rotate on their own, etc) that the makeup of the universe of which Nirn resides is very similiar in makeup to our own, but that the laws of physics are slightly different(Or are they? It is said that things like Magicka are a gift from the gods, so it may not be a change made to biology or the laws of physics but working through the gods). Atleast, thats my current theory. I kinda spoke in circles a bit there, sorry about that. Thoughts?

I enjoy the disareements and confusion surrounding the TES mythos. I makes it much more like a real religion.

Zyrious, I apologize for not reading through everything you posted. But try not too much to think of Aetherius, Oblivion and Mundus as isolated planes unless portals are opened. They're all contained within the Aurbis and as such the "laws of physics" are the same everywhere unless others are explicitly enforced.

You'll have noticed that in the Light and the Dark and the Hearth of the World and Vehks teachings the world starts out as something that resembles a self aware conciousness that because of a lack of any sort of input (sensory deprivation) explores his own mind.

Unlike the real world and because the gods are real in a sense, differing myths are bound to be different interpretations of the same event rather then the result of an attempt to make sense of the world.

Now in doing so this conciousness divided himself in everything he was and everything he was not. From those things the et'Ada came. The et'Ada split up in those who preferred the Light and those who preferred the Dark, creating Oblivion and Aetherius. Lorkhan then came along and created Mundus, creating yet another division, those who participated and those who didn't. Aedra and Deadra.

Now you'll have noticed that this conciousness has already split up several times and with the creation of Mundus there is yet again another split up. First between Wandering and Old Elnofey, then between the Elves themselves. This process is also mentioned in et'Ada eat the Dreamer.

So rather then looking at the et'Ada as gods, see them as the first principles of a developing mind. See them as elements and actors in a story.

Well, none of that makes any sense in any logical form or within any realm of science, but if thats the lore...thats kind of dissappointing, i suppose. But there's not much that can be done. I guess its just a psych patient with a universe in his mind, as it were. Schizophrenia to a whole new level, as it were. I kinda enjoyed the thought The world within oblivion was its own universe as i was playing, but was unaware the lore had gone so crazy and indepth. Oh well...