It is not relevant because there is no solid information, because nobody really bothered to write about it, because nobody is really interested, because it is not relevant.

Therefore, any 'look into the relationship between the mortal and the divine planes' that you would want to develop based on Nirn's size would be completely pulled out of thin air.

Think of it this way: the fact of Nirn's finiteness, that it is a globe with a certain threshold of girth, is unique -- and, indeed, essentially important -- in and of itself because, in the Aurbis, infinity is usually the order of the day. The gods (ie planets), Oblivion's planes/waters, etc -- all of these are infinite infinities wrapping around one another in a giant infinite orgy of infinity -- but at their center is Nirn, which is finite, mortal.

Thus, Nirn's exact size, or shape, is not important; what is important is the very fact of its size, and shape, and mortality.

Mmm, dashes.

This is what I am saying.

Now, the point that nobody has written about it:

Somebody HAS. Cosmology takes the time to specially note that Nirn is finite. It seems that this mention is something special, BECAUSE everything else is infinite.

Finite is, obviously enough, another way of saying "limited." That Nirn has "limits" is well attested to. Nirn was puzzled together from pieces that were never supposed to hold together in the first place, so someone had to put up a few fences to keep the neighbors out and the children in.

Ah. You were talking about the difference between concepts and things and using them to explain the difference, these are fundamental properties of the God and Nirn respectively. The appearance of size and distance are merely the impression they create on a mortal mind.

Had Nirn been infinite, you could still describe it's opposition to the Gods as the opposition between concepts and things. As such, size is irrelevant.



I have actually. The shape of Nirn is roughly spherical and it's circumference half that of earths, about 20.000 kilometers. This can be derived from the known distance of 250 miles from Red Mountain to the City of Almelexia as described in the PGE and the degrees longitude as written on the Red Gaurd map. Further more, it's highest Point is Red Mountain with 10 kilometers, this is derived from scaling Morrowind up to a 1:1 scale. Considering these two parameters, Mars has a strong equivalence.


While we're at it, I'd like to point out that the sky is infinite as far as we know.

I don't think it's that obvious at all.

"What are planets?

The planets are the gods and the planes of the gods, which is the same thing. That they appear as spherical heavenly bodies is a visual phenomena caused by mortal mental stress. Since each plane(t) is an infinite mass of infinite size, as yet surrounded by the Void of Oblivion, the mortal eye registers them as bubbles within a space. Planets are magical and impossible. The eight planets correspond to the Eight Divines. They are all present on the Dwarven Orrery, along with the mortal planet, Nirn.
What is Nirn?

Nirn (Ehnofex for 'Arena') is a finite ball of matter and magic made from all of the god planets at the beginning of time, when Lorkhan tricked/convinced/forced the gods to create the mortal plane. Nirn is the mortal plane and the mortal planet, which is the same thing. Its creation upset the cosmic balance; now all souls (especially the Aedra-Daedra/Gods-Demons) have a vested interest in Nirn (especially its starry heart, Tamriel)."

Further, it goes on to refer to moons as small planets. Not once, though, is Nirn called a planet. Rather, the Planets seem to be the finite(to the mortal mind) expressions of infinity. Space is a planet. That which is outside space is a planet. Nirn, however, is just a ball of stuff floating in infinity.

Not an infinity wrapped in infinity, but finity wrapped in infinity.



Irrelevant compared to what? What is relevant?


When I said the point that nobody has written about it, I was talking about the point a couple posts up. When Adanorcil said that nobody bothered to write about the size of Nirn.

Ah, you didn't read your own quote.


Nirn is unique, but still similar enough for Mankar Camoran to claim that it is only a hijacked Oblivion plane.

Size is irrelevant as a reason why Nirn is different.



*Sigh*

The point was that knowing Nirns circumference, highest mountain, comparable planets and such are all trivial information. I guess I should have added information about the weather and time of arrival at the airport.

Orc Dude: I was agreeing with Prow, not you -- reread my heavily dashed post.

And, Prow...ouch.

I don't get what you're saying.

Nirn's exact size doesn't matter. But that it DOES have size is something that matters, because everything else doesn't. Am I making sense, or am I not?

Yes, that makes sense. I don't think anyone was arguing to the contrary.

Seems there may have been some talking past one another here.

...I honestly don't get where anyone got the idea that I thought we should know how big or small Nirn is, though. Other than "smaller than infinite, both by the mortal definition and by the Divine definition".

This may be derailing the thread, but how many planes of Oblivion are there?

As many as there is Daedra Princes I'm not sure if the Aedras count as well but it's possible.

16, but there is http://www.imperial-library.info/fsg/prowelerarticle1.shtml to Oblivion.

So, in these pocket dimensions int the void, if one fiddled around with the amount of Magicka entering it, what would happen?

Perhaps what you are angling for is the place or meaning of Nirn in the Grey Maybe?

Well if all this takes place in the Grey Maybe and then all the Plane-ts are trapped in it as they are the Gods, is the Grey Maybe an infinity? Does it have to be infinite to contain infinity/s?

I think it is possible for the Grey Maybe to be Finite and yet contain Infinities - depending on the nature of those Infinities. It can therefore be the case that in purely spacial terms the Grey Maybe is finite, surrounded by the Void.

The plane-ts appear to have size, but it also appears that is not the essence of their infinite natures. They do not appear to have formed according to Aristotlean principals, but rather according to 'mystical/metaphysical' paradigms - and it appears that this determines their position in the firmament as it does with the stars with the pysicality being a by-product.

Accepting there is a 'physical' dimension / structure to both Nirn and the firmament and their components, but that it is not necessarily the determining or controlling factor, and probably not the most important, by contrast the metaphysical / mystical nature is so significant that the mere physical pales by comparison. Uncomfortable from some (esp mortal) points of view, but not necessarily from a God's point of view.

(edit - how many times did I repeat the same concept there?)

An addition: maybe Nirn is a catalyst or a cyst - same might be the case for the Grey Maybe

A few things. First, Zeno pointed long ago that any finite length is, at least in principle, subject to infinite divisions. Second, George Cantor showed that there can be sets of infinity of different sizes (that's right, one infinite series can be larger than another). Third, not sure what you mean by "Aristotlean principals" but Aristotle thought the movement of heavenly bodies (stars and planets) was due to their (pseudo) divine nature.

And Zeno sorta got a bit mixed up about the nature of finity and infinity ... presumably, if he wasn't just playing a practical joke re never reaching a goal. Accepted there are aspects of reality that can appear to be applied to usefully - like chores, which are never finished - in that case the 'finishing part' does not refer to a perfect result, but rather to completing a set of motions that assume that all is done 'sufficiently'. The big difference between a word play and reality is what hits you on the head. When people get too far out they cease to interact in a way that makes sense. As far as I am concerned myths ancient and modern are just that and can be great fun so long as you appreciate where the fun stops and hard reality remains - and that includes not getting tied up by the sophistry of 'mysticists' who either fail to understand the real meaning of their words or who use their mysticism to manipulate others.

Oops - am I getting my Greek philosophers mixed up? Try the 'modern scientific method'

All this talk about Zeno is confusing

That's a kinda missing the point. This is a made up world so it doesn't need to have any thing that resembles reallity.

I think that using myths and ancient world views are used to shape the metaphysics is a pretty good twist on the usual bag-of-planes. People once did believe in their ancient world views so there is material to build on. Now we can climb the poverbial Mount Olympus and wonder if we could meet the gods.

All the same for myths, they're stories told by people and because the games are a collection of stories, they have power. Think of it as a kind of improved magic. Not the sort of magic where mages cast missiles as a workout, but something that seems more magical and less tangible.

oops - 'pologies Zeno




Not what I was getting at proweler - I am all for mixing magic and metaphisics - assuming it has sufficient depth to secure a strong place in contrast to or association with mundane physics - in-game. So I was saying in that post I like that in-game, but I am not so happy when people take that stuff out-game and apply it to the detriment of others - for example 'obnoxious cult leaders' etc. Maybe simply that it is useful to keep a close eye on what is myth and what is real both n-game and out.

The Shivering Isles were quite interesting for a plane of Oblivion for a few reasons.

First, there appeared to be a sun. Would this be Magnus?

Second, there are several mortal, possibly native creatures, such as the Grummites, who are rumored to be the original inhabitants.

Third, given the Passwall Spire's amplification of the obelisk within, and given the obelisks in general, it seems that towers still seem to have some sort of power even when there is no connection with Nirn (we also had Sigil Towers, but their purpose seemed to be maintaining literal connections with Nirn).

Is it not impossible for an alternate dimension to have its version of a sun?

And, for the record, Grummites are NOT the original inhabitants. The Shivering Isles was home to a race of pygmies before they were taken over by the Grummites, who in turn were taken over by the Tamrielic races. I take it you've never toured the Museam.

I've visited the Museum, I just don't consider the evidence concrete enough to actually make the assumption, I just said that they're rumored to be the original inhabitants.