I will admit that I don't follow the lore extremely closely but I think Bethesda forget the ending of Oblivon when making the ending to the Thieves Guild in Skyrim. In the end of Oblivion I recall the mention of making the barriers between Nirn and the realms of Oblivion permament, but if that is the case how did Nocturnal make an appearance in person in Skyrim?

Also when did the Skeleton Key go from an unbreakable lockpick to something that can enable a single man to knock over buildings powerful?

What is the difference between a hologram of a thing and the real thing? That is the difference between a Daedra prince truly manifesting and what you saw in Skyrim.

And the new lore is that the skeleton key was always that, the player character was merely never able to use it in any way other than as an unbreakable lockpick.

The Apoth. at Oneth Temple thereafter only prevents naked, hostile takeovers from Oblivion. What we experience at the end of that guildquest is neither.

Also, the Skeleton Key in SK isn't the same one from other games.

What indicates that what we saw was a hologram though? It seemed as though by placing the key in the lock we reopened some sort of oblivion portal allowing Nocturnal to appear.

I always assumed that the Twilight Sepulcher existed in a kind of bubble of Oblivion. So the entrance would be more of a Shivering Isles-type invitation or an Umbriel not-really-there kind of deal.

There have always been, and always will be, ways of getting around the liminal barriers. For example, Dagon appears before Herkel in the second fight of the Aldudagga, even though it wasn't one of his summoning days, because the destruction of Sarthaal so embodied his sphere. Similarly, it's always been possible to summon the princes. What oblivion's ending really did was restore the pre-oblivion status quo. As for the Twilight Sepulcher itself, that place doesn't seem to really be normal, and it's notable that the portal inside it can only operate with the power of the skeleton key. It's possible that the Ur-Dra is using the Skeleton key to "unlock" the Liminal barrier and allow her a stable crack at the sepulcher. Either way, it seems she's found one of a number of ways to cheat the fragile system.

Apparently, we just never noticed that the skeleton key metaphorically unlocked things. Also, as Haute points out, the Skyrim skeleton key's role at the twilight sepulcher would seem to preclude it being the same key as the one Nocturnal handed out to every adventurer that passed by.

I always thought that there were little paths(see wormholes) that the Daedric Princes could squeeze a little bit of themselves through. Remember Sul in the Novels? He walked the planes and paths of Oblivion to basically fast travel. Why couldn't Daedra manifest relatively harmless parts of themselves through those same paths? I think the Barriers are more like a net. It can stop most of the more powerful beings and only trickles of power can get in, though what those trickles can accomplish depends on who's doing the trickling.

Hey! I discovered a Lore reason for Fast Travel! Just requires everyone to roleplay an Oblivion expert! /sarcasm

Actually, I'm pretty sure Karliah says that Nocturnal loses the key every so often intentionally for mysterious reasons and has the Nightingales return it, so I guess when the heroes are done with it some Nightingale plucks it out of their pockets or trash cans.

Nocturnal appeared because she was invited. The rules of Daedra and Mundus are the same as they always were before the Oblivion Crisis, Daedra can enter as long as they're invited.

That doesn't make sense. What's to stop the Mythic Dawn from inviting Mehrunes Dagon back around?

Nothing, besides the fact that it would be really, really, REALLY difficult to summon Mehrunes in a form in which he would be able to cause major damage. Hell, any time you do a Deadric Shrine quest, you're summoning a Prince.

In addition to the fact that Daedric Princes have very little time to work with when invited into Mundus, they also don't have free access to their power. Just as a Lesser Daedra conjured by a mage is, to an extent, bound to that mage's will, so too is a Daedric Prince bound to the will of Mundus.

I remain highly skeptical. This is my highly skeptical face.

Umm, Skeleton Key? Shor's Bones, anyone?

The barriers to Oblivion are nothing but contradictory TES IV plot convenience. Pay them no heed. Daedra have always been able to meddle in the Mundus, if not threaten to destroy it.

Edit: As to your second question, because Skyrim's faction quests are bad and the TG is worse.

There's also the fact that the Skeleton Key (in Skyrim) can unlock anything, as long as you know what you're looking for. Including metaphorical stuff. I wouldn't be surprised if it could unlock the secrets of CHIM, and I wouldn't be surprised at all if it could unlock the barriers between Mundas and Oblivion.

Well played. Not sure why Nocturnal would have Shor's bone in her realm, though. Erm, that sounded a bit wrong.


I think one thing we have to bear in mind is that the Nocturnal's shrines are sacred places dedicated to her. Limited manifestation through a cult site or sacred artefact is very different to randomly appearing in all her power and stomping things for lulz.

Also, I liked the TG quests, aside from being Maven's enforcer. Not as cool as in OB, but the link between thieves and their patron goddess was something worth exploring. Plus you get awesome daedric ninja armour.


Interesting point. I wonder whether the key's powers are limited to Nocturnal's sphere, though. Raises the old question about the relationship between the Daedra and Mundus.

As mentioned, an avatar of the Daedra is a much different thing than a full manifestation. Azura was able to appear before the Nerevarine on two occasions (one of which she was even able to interact with him to an extent, giving him her ring as a token). The dragonfires were still burning at that point.

I wonder, though, how much of that is the Empire taking credit for Sotha Sil's pact with the princes in order to give themselves more legitimacy.

Could you find those dialogue lines in the CS? (or a youtube video, whatever) I don't recall her mentioning it.

I suspect the folks at White-Gold have their own deals with Misrule, inherited from the Ayleids.

I didn't find anything from Karliah (the dialogue exports are a [censored] to sort through), but here's from Nocturnal:

"So... once again the Key has been stolen and a "champion" returns it to the Sepulcher."

From what I've seen and read, Nocturnal seems to have had a unique relationship with the old Empires, those that maintained the divine barriers. It's suggested she helped the Reman Empire get the Daedra Princes to promise not to sabotage Reman's attempt to create a lunar colony. In addition, from what I understand, Battlespire was connected to her realm. I wouldn't be surprised if the divine barriers restricted her less than some of the other princes.

Oh. I'm pretty sure it is part of Gallus's books on the Nightingales then.

Given this quote, I think we can safely assume that Nocturnal is simply a dike.