Non-Combat Skills

Post » Sun Aug 08, 2010 7:12 pm

As long as it is better than the Runescape fishing,
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Marquis T
 
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Post » Sun Aug 08, 2010 2:41 pm

I don't think just adding more non-combat skills would make much difference, though. Bethesda would need to give players oportunities to actually use non-violent means to accomplish something, things like adding diplomatic solutions for quests or creating more situations where a stealthy character can sneak past enemies to get to a goal rather than just killing them, because adding more non-combat skills won't do much if you have no reason to invest in those skills. Thus, before worrying about adding skills that wouldn't really be of much use to an adventurer, I'd actually like Bethesda to first think about how to make non-combat skills more useful.

THIS. It doesn't matter how many skills you have if they are poorly implemented or there are no ways of using them to your advantage. Quests should have multiple possible endings and the paths to those should be various, too. It's all a matter of quest and level design. If we have quests that depend on killing enemies, then it's no wonder that they are rather linear and boring. However, quests that depend on reaching a given location, getting a given item or sth similar can be much more interesting. If you have to reach location X where there is an item of interest that the questgiver wants you to get, then you can fight your way through (it may be difficult, though), kill the enemies indirectly (by creating traps etc.), sneak past them or persuade guards to steal the item for you.
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Devils Cheek
 
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Post » Sun Aug 08, 2010 9:21 am

There is a misunderstanding here.

Firstly, I really like the idea and I would like Bethesda to include ALL of the mentioned misc skills and even many MORE.

Secondly, I think that most of those skills would not "fit" with standard ones. While Crafting is an unique one and it could be related to Armorer, most of misc skills would be very minor. You can't compare Fishing, Music, Dancing or whatever to Mercantile, Speechcraft, Sneak, Alchemy or Security. Sure, those skills might have been unbalanced in previous TES games, but it doesn't mean that they don't have good potential. Mercantile is potentially the greatest money-maker around there, which means that as long as there are ways of spending money and it is of any importance, this skill, when balanced, will be vital for many characters (especially thieves). There is nothing of this sort that you can make from fishing. Sure, you can earn some money from it, but you will need Mercantile anyway in order to sell your fish for a good price! Speechcraft could be so vital for quests and dialogue checks that I consider it to be the most unused skill in TES games. It definitely has great potential, though - even if they simply copy speechcraft checks from Fallout: New Vegas, it will be much better than its implementation in Oblivion. Sneak and Security require no explanation - they are the most important skills for any thief, so it's funny to say that they could be compared with Music or Cooking.

Thirdly, I think that Misc skills could get some love by creating a more advanced system which would utilise them to their full potential - something which wouldn't make them useless and cause stupid imbalances.

Lastly, I have my own ideas for misc skills, too:

- Riding - in Oblivion everyone can ride a horse, which is plainly stupid; good for many characters
- Climbing - good thing for thieves and burglars alike; it was in Daggerfall, too; of course, it will be useless unless they will include possibilities of using that skill
- Tracking - think of those messages from Oblivifall mod, but more related to this skill; would be great for hunters
- Swimming - I'm sure that there are good athletes around there who can't swim; it should be a misc skill unrelated to Athletics in such a plain way as in MW or OB
- Mining - it's ridiculous that a character with 30 Strength and absolutely no mining skills can mine ore...
- Crafting should be divided, because it doesn't fit with other misc skills and it's too broad. Smithing should be combined with Armorer, as for the rest, I would go for:
1) Tailoring - clothing etc.
2) Fletching - arrows etc.
3) Weaving - tapestries for houses etc.
4) Brewing - alcohols etc.


As Stealth is essential to a theif, so is music to a bard. Mercantile and speachcraft should still be thrown to the misc skill. How about everytime you level up each of these misc skills ten times they get a level towards then ten you need to level up.


I would like to see Bethesda put a little more focus on non-combat skills in future games, I mean, I like combat, killing enemies is fun in a video game, especially since it's not something I would usually do in real life, and in fact most games I've played involve some element of combat, but this is supposed to be an RPG, and one that makes freedom a big selling point. It's supposed to let you create different types of characters, and actually PLAY those characters as they might behave, so if you decide to play a character whose main focus is not on combat, it makes little sense for fighting to be the only way to progress in the game.

I don't think just adding more non-combat skills would make much difference, though. Bethesda would need to give players oportunities to actually use non-violent means to accomplish something, things like adding diplomatic solutions for quests or creating more situations where a stealthy character can sneak past enemies to get to a goal rather than just killing them, because adding more non-combat skills won't do much if you have no reason to invest in those skills. Thus, before worrying about adding skills that wouldn't really be of much use to an adventurer, I'd actually like Bethesda to first think about how to make non-combat skills more useful.

Though, one thing I do hope to see in future games is for Bethesda to expand the crafting options in the game, it doesn't need to be limited to just weapons and armor either, why shouldn't I be able to craft clothing? Or jewlery? Or more? Crafting would be a good place to start for expanding non-combat skills as it would be easy to make useful, since you could use the items you make yourself, or sell them, making it something that has the potential to be both practical and profitable.


The point of these is to give the player something other than fighting to do.

I think crafting is a definate for the series. Providing madness ore and Amber to the smiths in new sheaoth was the first step. Then weapon shematics in Fallout 3.

As long as it is better than the Runescape fishing,


I hope it has nothing to do with Runescape.
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Mackenzie
 
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Post » Sun Aug 08, 2010 3:12 pm

As Stealth is essential to a theif, so is music to a bard. Mercantile and speachcraft should still be thrown to the misc skill.

Excuse me? I would argue that Speechcraft is potentially the most powerful skill in the whole set, definitely not a misc one. In most societies neither the "warriors" (i.e. soldiers) nor the "mages" (i.e. savants) are in charge, but charismatic leaders who aren't really that powerful by themselves - they extend their power with words, gestures, charisma. You can't possibly overestimate the power of oratory, leadership or proper persuasion.

Same could be said about Mercantile, but maybe to lesser extent. Let's call it a money-maker - a reason why there are many fat merchants with money and poor warriors without any.

In fact, the race which is considered to be the most "proficient" one with both skills (which serve as a way to abstract things like diplomacy, trade proficiency etc.) ruled the Tamriel for quite a while. Compare that to the position of the Orcs.

Nothing of this sorts could be said about cooking or fishing. Such skills simply don't "fit" with other ones - they are not powerful enough. It doesn't mean that I don't want them included - I just want it done in an efficient and balanced way.

How about everytime you level up each of these misc skills ten times they get a level towards then ten you need to level up.

Sorry, but I can't understand what you meant by that. Care to explain?
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how solid
 
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Post » Sun Aug 08, 2010 7:11 pm

How about everytime you level up each of these misc skills ten times they get a level towards then ten you need to level up.

Are you suggesting that to go up one level with misc. skills only you need to level the skills 100 times?
That seems a bit extreme
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Kelsey Anna Farley
 
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Post » Sun Aug 08, 2010 4:38 pm

Those things should be doable but not have set skills. Thats the way I see it.
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Manny(BAKE)
 
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Post » Sun Aug 08, 2010 11:10 am

Those things should be doable but not have set skills. Thats the way I see it.

Nah, then what's the point? You should be able to get better at X while practising. It's logical.
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Mandy Muir
 
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Post » Sun Aug 08, 2010 2:48 pm

Then they need to have some other kind of leveling system for it. Playing the lute all day should not make it so you can raise your willpower or speed in the level up menu.
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jesse villaneda
 
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Post » Sun Aug 08, 2010 2:29 pm

Then they need to have some other kind of leveling system for it. Playing the lute all day should not make it so you can raise your willpower or speed in the level up menu.

Exactly. That's why it should be a seperate system.
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Louise
 
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Post » Sun Aug 08, 2010 10:13 pm

As long as there is a separate system I am happy. You should be able to choose from a wide variety of music too. There should be a secret song book somewhere that has electric guitar solos and you can play them on your lute.
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Chloe Mayo
 
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Post » Sun Aug 08, 2010 8:18 am

Excuse me? I would argue that Speechcraft is potentially the most powerful skill in the whole set, definitely not a misc one. In most societies neither the "warriors" (i.e. soldiers) nor the "mages" (i.e. savants) are in charge, but charismatic leaders who aren't really that powerful by themselves - they extend their power with words, gestures, charisma. You can't possibly overestimate the power of oratory, leadership or proper persuasion.


Can you become a leader in TES? Yes, But you never actually use any charismatic powers. This is actually starting to sound hypocritical.
One could become a Fishing tycoon if thats what they worked for. Thats power. You also have power over fish lives.
In a real society, yeah speechcraft is useful, so is fishing. One gets you influence, the other gets you food.
BUT we are not debating real life. We are debating TES, and therefore, Speechcraft is not powerful.

Same could be said about Mercantile, but maybe to lesser extent. Let's call it a money-maker - a reason why there are many fat merchants with money and poor warriors without any.


In the case that you can become a merchant(not in TES). The only time Mercantile is useful is when you sell items that you stole or got from dungeons.

Sorry, but I can't understand what you meant by that. Care to explain?

Your Character levels up, by leveling up Ten skills. Now if there was a Misc skill that encompased all Misc skills(fishing, CRAFTING) And if that Misc Skill leveled up by leveling up Misc skills. This sound confusing so forget it.

New Idea.

How about you have a Combat level and Non-Combat Level.

Edit: To elaborate a bit, your combat level determines the Level of enemies you fight, and aquiring weapons and stuff like it always did.
Your non-combat level effect whats for sale and prices, interaction with other citisens, the value of certain loot in dungeons, etc.
I could probably put more things in but I only just thought of the idea.
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Emerald Dreams
 
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Post » Sun Aug 08, 2010 6:03 pm

Can you become a leader in TES? Yes, But you never actually use any charismatic powers. This is actually starting to sound hypocritical.
One could become a Fishing tycoon if thats what they worked for. Thats power. You also have power over fish lives.
In a real society, yeah speechcraft is useful, so is fishing. One gets you influence, the other gets you food.
BUT we are not debating real life. We are debating TES, and therefore, Speechcraft is not powerful.

A fishing tycoon doesn't have to know how to fish at all. If anything, it's more about Mercantile than fishing.

Come on, you can't possibly compare the two.

Also, I said that Speechcraft is potentially the most powerful skill around. It needs more features and balance, but it has much potential for a great skill. Signs of improvement are showing - look at Fallout: New Vegas. All Beth needs to do is to copy the feature and then adjust it to their taste.

In the case that you can become a merchant(not in TES). The only time Mercantile is useful is when you sell items that you stole or got from dungeons.

Which often means that you will become rich VERY soon.

And I would love the ability to own shops and profit from them - they should include it someday!

How about you have a Combat level and Non-Combat Level.

Edit: To elaborate a bit, your combat level determines the Level of enemies you fight, and aquiring weapons and stuff like it always did.
Your non-combat level effect whats for sale and prices, interaction with other citisens, the value of certain loot in dungeons, etc.
I could probably put more things in but I only just thought of the idea.

At last! You are talking sense! That's a MARVELLOUS idea and a very simple one, too.
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meghan lock
 
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Post » Sun Aug 08, 2010 9:46 pm

And I would love the ability to own shops and profit from them - they should include it someday!

If they make crafting, you will be able to, in a way.
Crafting seems a bit asssured though. The SI smiths, and F3 weapon construction, are my two points.

At last! You are talking sense! That's a MARVELLOUS idea and a very simple one, too.

We all have our moments.

I'm still trying to think of how this could be done. No hope for seeing it in TES 5, if BGS is almost done.
But maybe a mod...
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Courtney Foren
 
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