Is there any kind of judicial system in Tamriel at all? I mean; there HAS to be because there are laws agains stealing, killing etc. but how does it work. I did a searcy on TIL but couldn't find anything. Is there ANY information about this at all?

If you break any law, the guards reserve the right to pass judgement on the spot and/or beat the crap out of you.

There were courts and judges in the game Daggerfall.

I'm guessing they removed the Courts and stuff in the later installments due too better gameplay, but seeing as I have only played through Oblivion and barely scratched the surface of TES lore I'm just curious as too how these courts were organized. Or was ?organized? law disbanded in ?real? lore, thus giving guardsmen full judicial powers? This seems highly unlikely, because giving an ordinary man that much power it can easily be misused. Although there is a certain http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Oblivion:Imperial_Corruption which involves the prosecution of a guardsman, so how does this system work!?!? Sorry if this post is confusing but so is the matter at hand.

Well in Morrowind and Oblivion (only 2 I've played) the guards only address you when they KNOW your guilty of a crime either by sight or someone telling them I suppose. They never come to conduct an investigation or to falsly accuse (would be a neat twist maybe, eh?).

That takes a lot of judicial system paperwork out right there. They KNOW your guilty, so they give you the options: pay fines, goto jail, or resist.

Paying fines is just being ticketed for the crime basically, whereas when you goto jail you are sentenced for an amount of time (which is obviously decided by someone so it appears there is a court we just don't get to see it or plead our case--after all they know your guilty.)

If your crimes are bad enough, no amount of money or jail time will save you, and death is your sentence.


Seems understandable to me.... There is just a lot we don't need to see going on (ie courtroom) because we are never innocent, you know?

But in another http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Oblivion:A_Brotherhood_Betrayed they try to perform a proper investigation, and you are also sent to http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Oblivion:Canvas_the_Castle a theft yourself, so there must be more to the law than they only attempt an arrest from an eyewitnessed crime.

EDIT: I just remembered that Oblivion is the weakest TES game (at least lore based) so maybe I shouldn't complain. I dunno

No no, I am postivie there are investigations and all that going on, just none concerning the player as when your in trouble, do are guilty without a doubt you know?

Now when the gaurds approached you and gave you the choices, one should be "point at closest argonian and say he did it!". Then they'd have to investigate lol.

That svcks, but as previously stated this is most likely just left out to enhance gameplay. Now it's just up to the modding community to fulfill our wishes.

You mean an accuse argonian mod? YES!!!

Lol, I know what you mean. After I finish the mod I'm working on that may be a good follow up!

One of the most notable feature of tamrielic law is the basic principle "guilty until proven innocent".
Your standard text on laws would be "http://www.imperial-library.info/dfbooks/b025_legalbasic.shtml". However, it has practically no information about the actual legal system (courts etc.), although it is hinted that at least in the Imperial City, there are such things as lawyers. Also, http://www.imperial-library.info/mwbooks/orsinium.shtml contains some information. The http://www.imperial-library.info/mwbooks/trib_common_tongue.shtml mentions courts and lawsuits. Also interesting would be the Trial under Dunmeri Law, here is what Vivec says about it in his http://www.imperial-library.info/characters/trial_vivec.shtml (not an ingame source).

To find out more about the Tamrielic law system, I'd suggest that you search TIL for keywords like judge, court, law, etc. Also, Julianos is commonly associated with Law while Stendarr is associate with Mercy, being the "inspiration of magistrates and rulers".

But jailtime in Oblivion was just decided by "hundred septims bounty equals one night in jail". and the bountys for each crime is already set (40 for assault (sp?) 1000 for murder etc), Which kinda eliminates the need for a judge/court whatever?

Just mechanics I'd imagine. I've always assumed that there were courts and advocacy in Cyrodiil, but most people wouldn't want to sit through it. I do find it odd that crime is assessed in terms of money, in that a certain amount of money is equal to 1 day, and therefore what seems like a huge fine for murder may equate to only a month in prison. Mechanics again, I suppose spending ten game years in jail, or being executed might irritate some players.

Well, the gameplay mechanics are different for you then they are for lore...this is just common sense, we can't have you rotting in jail while the world needs to be saved, now can we? I recall a one Valen Dreth telling a guard: "ELEVEN! Eleven Years, I've been in this rat-infested hell hole!" And there was someone out there who wanted him dead enough to pay you to kill him, so that could have been murder or perhaps a con job, or he was a very bad thief, whatever it was, it got him eleven years, which is likely closer to standard.

Also, various kingdoms, duchies, fiefdoms, countries, nations, etc. Will have their own native laws and regulations, with imperial law superseding anything that conflicts most likely, except in rare instances such as Morrowind, that negotiated an Armistice with Tiber Septim, allowing Native Law to supersede Imperial Law, in exchange, The Empire got all the Ebony and Glass, and taxes the hell out of native liquor, and has low tariffs on their own. (Smart guy that Tiber.) The most notable is Necromancy, punishable by death in Morrowind, legal in Cyrodiil, so long as the keep it private, and don't display their corpses in public, and legally purchase the corpse from the deceased prior to their passing.

Also, Morrowind mentions "Magistrates" and if your bounty is over a hundred I believe, the latest rumors topic will bring up: "I heard you owe the magistrate some money, you know you owe it, why don't you pay it?" (Or along those lines.)

And finally theirs the Daggerfall Book wich details law, or something. Directly quoting an Ape Prophet named Marukh about "Guilty until proven innocent."\

Hope this helped.

Yes, but if you think about it, having set punishment for diferent crimes saves the Empire a lot of time, and the need for judges (only in special cases). I agree with it only being mechanics, but even if it wasn't,it would kinda make sence?

That's so incredibly racist but at the same time incredibly funny.

I imagine so, no need for judges, the military can hand out punishments to known crininals. You are asked to carry out investigations in several games, so evidence, or being caught in the act does seem to be required. The guards never seem to arrest someone without good reason, so you can imagine investigations are carried out.

...unless the guards really ARE psychic....

There are certainly lawyers; St. Delyn is a documented example of one. Though that is *I believe* in pre-Imperial Morrowind, so maybe this is not proof of how things work in the Imperial justice system.


Saint Delyn
http://www.imperial-library.info/zeph/tes_tre_3/s.shtml
http://www.imperial-library.info/mwbooks/lives_saints.shtml

perhaps its like a state government. So the more rich ones have more organized law, conduct investigations, and does whatever the leader can afford, but if the Sate (or city, in the games case) is poor, less law enforcement, and a 'you're-guilty-only-if-caught' type thing. Have you ever heard of a investigation in Bravil? 'Course not, the guards cant smell skooma even though they are right by it.

Some of my peers think that its fashionable to make fun of Bravil. I think that it is in poor taste.

Or something like that, I'm paraphrasing.

It is fashionable to make fun of Bravil and Regulus Terentius. Personally, I think it is poor sport to mock the poor and disadvantaged.

It seems that the Counts have the final say in sentencing in the cities, as was the case with Jorundr. However, in some cases, such as with Count Indarys, the Count does not involve himself in the system, at least not until it's brought to his attention that his guard captain has been keeping the extra fine money for himself.