Then you should not be able to advance the skill further without the perks. Otherwise the skill and level readings are just a lie. Either you have a skill of 90 or of 95 or of 100, or you don't. If you do not, certain perks won't be available, however if you DO, then certain abilities should be available without the perks. Perhaps not extremely potent benefits like 50% off master level spells, etc, but novice level spells should all already be at extremely reduced magicka cost once you have reached a mastery skill level.

The skill rank provides some concrete benefits in and of itself but exists primarily as a measure of your experience in the skill. The perks themselves are the true measure of your ability, which is why I and many others have been saying all along that they should have gone with a different name. Todd Howard stated this in multiple interviews. The specifics of what the skill rank does for spells have not been revealed but I've heard it rumored that it increases the spell's potency, e.g. even unperked your basic Flames spell will do significantly more damage at skill rank 100 than it would at skill rank 15. If they don't do that then I'm sure they'll go the other route (which I disagree with), namely reducing the spell's casting cost.

What I like about the new system is that it makes you choose. You can no longer be good at everything, thus you have to carefully consider what you want to do and who you want to be. Every advantage you've gained is one that you had to work for and that had to come at the expense of not choosing another strength. I know you liked the old system because it gave you the choice of being good at everything. The fact that that "choice" existed in prior games always bothered me, because it trivialized the whole experience of leveling up. I never felt like I'd had to work to get to where my guy was. Quite the opposite, I felt like once I passed level 20 there was no challenge left in the game, because there was nothing stopping me or even hindering my progress in becoming a do-everything god and I quickly became bored with it. Being super-powerful is great, but being ALL-powerful is just boring to me, and I've always hated the notion that there's nothing wrong with a game that forces you to make your own challenge, because that's something the game should do on its own.

Why?

:facepalm:

what yes they do havent you seen the ranking of the spells fire storm was ranked at a master so you would have to have that perk to cast it

By forcing a character to follow a perk tree (ala stealing primarily from bliizzard) you are negating the whole point of skills. why not just take out skills altogethor and make xp the sole means of leveling and give perks.....

Most of the perks are garbage and therefore I shouldn't be forced to use them. It is a limiting handicap that I don't need as a player. I want to build my RP classes the way I want them. The perks shouldn't be that overpowered to begin with. Lets face it the majority created were meant to stave off the loss of attributes. Unfortunately Bethesda has resorted to stealing from other game developers for ideas without trying to put in as much creative effort to the core gameplay system. They need to hire talent that is just as good as the world builders and you will finally start to revolutionize TES... Fallout for that matter as well.

What? All of the perks are amazing. Couldn't be happier about the new system.

I've been pretty optimistic about the changes, and rarely whine on these forums when I'm not, but forcing us to follow a perk tree - a.k.a HAVING to choose perks in order to get other perks - isn't exactly a very good, unique system. It doesn't allow for further customization. It lets us adhere to a zombie-like pathway, where the game says, "In order to do this, you HAVE to do this. Why? Because I say so, that's why."

I'm not cool with that, but I'm sure I'll live with it.

Had to stop reading the thread here to reply to these two posts and I don't want to start a debate on spellmaking. But if spellmaking in MW/OB was simply limited to Fire damage 10pts, 15pts, etc... then you would be correct. But that is not the case. An example I used in other threads: I made a fire-based mage (one of many themed characters) and one spell that fit the theme was a "Healing Flames" spell. It did fire damage on touch while healing by the same amount on myself (or maybe it was absorb health, can't remember, was a while ago). That way my fire mage character healed himself thru burning his enemies.

You simply cannot do something like this with the current system. That is why the spellmaking system in MW/OB was "deep" compared to Skyrim. And I'm looking forward to Skyrim and it's magic system as well as perks etc.....

So you enjoy all of the pointless filler perks like damage modifiers? I wasn't a fan of the attribute system but at least it was what it was and not a cover-up. I would have preferred a cut down system with fewer perks if that is the card we are dealt. Would have implemented something a bit more organic for learning unique abilities as well. Constellations should be an easter egg not a feature.

While I haven't seen or heard anything about the effect skill points play ,other then being prerequisites for perks, in the skill I'm sure a higher alchemy will result in better potions, higher smithing getting you bigger bonuses at the grinding stone, ect ect ect. Perks don't negate the need for skills but enhances them. Having played a game like dungeons & dragons I think of perks more like feats.

Yes but feats offer true unique abilities. (most of the time) Not just stat modifiers. Who is to say that skills shouldn't govern that entirely and make perks more truly like feats offering the more unique abilities like "bow zoom" or "combat stances" items that truly throw fun into the mix.

That's not what I was saying.

Say I want the decapitation perk, but am mostly a mage-type character. That means I have to spend all my perk points in one handed or two handed until the decapitation perk, even though they won't be very useful to me. They are literally forcing you to adhere to their perk trees. Say I want the shield bash perk, but that's the only block perk I'd like. Once I get to a high enough skill level in block, I have to pick every block skill before that until I can get what I want. They don't allow for branching out, and that's not cool. That doesn't make a character unique, it makes them a slave to structure. Unless I'm misunderstanding, this system is extremely limiting and forces you to spend points on useless perks.

And what is an Attribute if not a "Damage" Modifier? (At least the "Strength" and, to a lesser extent, "Willpower" Attribute)

The others that ruled something really necessary (Health, Magicka and Stamina) are not necessary anymore because we choose what we want to increase directly.

Feats offer both stat modifiers and unique abilities. Just like the perk system in Skyrim.

Your kinda repeating my point. They have added needless stat modifier perks. perks that we as the player are forced to take.... and for what? Will it visibly impact your gameplay other than extra damage or healing or armor? I doubt Bethesda has gotten that far considering they followed this gameplay path... wich is pretty much unoriginal.

For what? To help fully replace the previous stat system. Perks add unique and stat-like modifiers. Is that a complicated concept to grasp?

Makes perfect sense to me.

While some are necessary (Smithing ones comes to mind) others just "add" to the Skill (Like the Stealth ones). If we are going from a "Extra Damage" Attribute system to a "Extra Damage" Perk system, we didn't lose anything.
And in most cases we are not forced to take them, you can "save up" your "Perk Points" indefinitely and don't choose any of them if you don't want to.

No your simply not grasping my thoughts on the matter. If I wanted attributes or stats I would say so. My thoughts on the matter are to do away with the perk modifiers that add more stats. They are just as useless and redundant as Todd's hate on the previous incarnations of attributes and redundant skills.

Um, ok.

I like that there are stat-like modifiers existing alongside unique ones. You don't. Cool.

The perks that really raised my eyebrows are the "able to use suchandsuch materials" ones for smithing, because that's not a "perk" it's a necessity for the skill. I didn't see anything like that in the other information so far.

Yes. But it sounds like we are forced onto a "perk tree" system for skills. I.E. I am forced to take the shoddy perk to get the perk that I really want. So in essence it truly negates the need for skills. Especially if I am forced along that path system.

Alright, you don't like the skill tree system. You feel like a skill tree system takes away some of your freedom to choose the specific skills you want from the trees.

I personally think it's about 4 million times better. Especially with 18 starting points.

You will get a third of those if you max your character out... honestly that is enough despite the fact that players are forced. I just try to start discussions for creative thought. Modders can do wonders for this game.

That's what's good about it. You can only get 1/3 max perks. This will force your character to be more specialized.

You can have 100 skill in destruction, but not be all that great at it. I like the system since it channels characters away from being perfect at everything. Some people don't like that though.