there was a perk for that in new vegas ....... LOL

My link I just posted.

It's called addition by subtraction.

It might not be possible in the case of attributes based on the fact that the KIT sounds like its a complete overhaul of the CS, but it was possible to create new attributes and skills with the CS it doesn't matter if many people publicly posted mods that added new skills. it all depends upon how spiteful the Devs are while developing the KIT and if they'll diliberatly make it impossible for modder's to change their system like was potentially done in the CS.



your missing the point from the perspective of a role player. they game affects your characters statistics based on what skills you use. so for this example pretend that theif and assasin characters were possible without agility; what if I want to role play a theif that doesn't use conventional weapons or apparal, uses heavy weapons and heavy armor (thats not conventional but its a rp option that has been previously possible) but the new way as its explained if I play a thief using warrior equip I will be forced to select warrior perks and such even though my intention was not to be a warrior. do you see whats going on here.

Attributes are now folded into skill perks AND health/magicka/stamina.

Oh okay...

skillchecks.

Don't know why FO3 was a "hallmark of attribute checks" though, even FO1 and 2 had more skillchecks than attribute ones...

Acrobatics and Athletics were pointless in past games. I slightly lament the loss of attributes but then again the old attribute system was more of a pain than a pleasure.

Todd did have a point that most of the attributes only really translated into something else:

• Strength
  Increased melee damage, which was already derived from skills. Redundant use. We don't know how encumbrance is being handled yet
  
• Endurance
  Mainly affected health, the new system makes up for its absence
  
• Willpower
  Affected fatigue, which is covered in the new system. Also changed magicka regen rate. We don't know enough to decide that yet
  
• Intelligence
  Affected magicka, which is covered in the new system. Redundantly affected skills
  
• Speed
  Self explanatory, not highly important. Boots of Blinding Speed ftw
  
• Agility
  Affected ranged damage, which is skill redundant. Also affected knockback, which I assume isn't as important in the new combat system
  
• Personality
  Speechcraft redundant
  
• Luck
  Unnecessary

Really the only questions this new system brings up is encumbrance, magicka regen, and knockback. Speed is now changed to stamina/fatigue affecting how long you can sprint. Magicka regen really isn't that important considering increasing your total amount of magicka creates similar effects. Knockback really only made combat aggravating. Encumbrance is the only issue I find to have any weight

@Sinister Raven you forget Personality but that's pretty much similar to Speechcraft



Yeah to any one that has concerns about Attributes you should listen to that interview. Todd explains it pretty well as to the reason why they took them out.

:facepalm:


So much wrong with this I dont know where to begin. Acro and Athletics were not useless. Luck is necessary and your reason for no speed is laughable. Some characters are naturally fast, they dont need an enchanted item to be fast.

Encumberence will probably be tied to health or stamina since attributes are folded into health/magicka/stamina and skill perks.

I can feel some of Mirglof's pain (mostly because of the acrobatics), but I also understand the reasoning behind the attributes facing the wrath of the executioner's axe. Whether this less redundant design helps or hinders is yet to be seen, but the truth is that the attributes did very little on their own in the first place, and really, any changes to them were only meant to affect and alter the efficiency, power and potential of the various skills and the player's overall health/magicka/stamina anyway -- which we still have in the game and still have control over.

As far as athletics goes...meh...personally I could care less about running and moving at ridiculously 'cartoony' speeds (they've gone plaid!!). Sometimes 'fast' in their previous games has just been too fast for my taste and I'm sure the role that athletics played with regards to stamina/fatigue has been thought of, dealt with, and balanced out in some other way. I'm also pretty sure some races will still have a higher base speed, etc. and I certainly can't argue with the fact that anchored speeds and slower backpedalling will create more interesting and consequential combat scenarios, forcing us to use the 'speedy shouts' or sprint button more strategically in fights and during flees.

Acrobatics, however, is a different story. Whereas the exclusion of athletics seemed more about balancing out and adding intensity to the combat, the exclusion of acrobatics, in my opinion, only seems to hurt the game. Whether it be used for stealthily leaping between rooftops, or for making a quick exit from a losing battle by lunging over the edge of a precipitous cliff, or simply for enjoying the rush and feeling of jumping from boulder to boulder down the steep face of a mountain, it was always a useful and aesthetic aspect of the gameplay. Hopefully there's still some way to increase our jump height and fall distance.

actually they did, just because you did not like them/ slash could not figure out how to apply them. does not make them useless. they were massivly useful (necessary imo) for roleplaying any kind of thief or assasin, and they were also very useful for combat. if you actually used them and leveled them (I forget which one) to a certain point you can do back flips and side rolls to actually dodge attacks which was essential in a cave with necromancers so that you can avoid their attacks in a tunnel.

Good stuff, I thought I was the only one who read that.

Just for prosterity, I'm going to start a list the attributes from UESP and potential alternatives:

Agility
Affects your total Fatigue, damage dealt by ranged weapons, and your steadiness in combat.
This will undoubtedly be replaced by selecting Fatigue upon level up, a perk that increases bow damage and a sheild perk that builds a resistance against knockdown.

Endurance
Affects your total Fatigue as well your starting health and your health gain upon leveling up.
This will be substituted for selecting fatigue or health upon level-up, a racial bonus in character selection.

Intelligence
Affects your total magicka.
Select magika upon level up.

Luck
Affects everything you do in a small way.
Can be easily recreated by a racial bonus or a perk under Speechcraft.

Personality
Affects your ability to gain information and better prices from NPCs.
A perk under speechcaft or from what I hear, potentially fixed naturally by the new dialogue system.

Speed
Affects how fast you move.
A racial ability could easily determine vast differences between characters. Maybe even boosted by selecting stamina pool upon level up.

Strength
Affects your total encumbrance, your total Fatigue and the damage done by melee attacks.
Fixed easily by racial stats or a perk that will allow you to carry more. Additionally you can select the stamina pool upon level up

Willpower
Affects the rate at which magicka regenerates as well as your total Fatigue.
Selecting stamina or magika up level up or a perk under one of the many magic schools.

Aren't perks going to replace the loss of athletics, acrobatics and other such attributes fairly efficiently from the sounds of it?

Nice. Thanks for breaking that down.

THough I have some doubts about the new system, I have no doubt that it will be great. The perks sound very promising, and we have Health, Magicka and Stamina. I am curious about how magic regen and encumbrance will work and to know if everybody will have the same speed or it will depend on the race or something... I think the new system will solve some problems, for example how painful was for your character to level up and the lack of balance between atributtes (Speed, alkthough not uselss, was way more impractical than, let's say, Strenght).

To end, just a short line: People are afraid of changes.

I do see your point; and nothing is stopping you from selecting a mixture of the two. You may be naturally levelling up your sneak and selecting a perk that ignores the armour weight or type when sneaking. All the while you can use your long sword. The point of the new system is that the game works it's way around how you play; whereas before it was very much the other way around.

I am glad you feel for me. but your statement (as well as other poster's statements) are based on the misunderstanding as to just how Attributes affected almost everything. alot of people who didn't take the time to learn just how attributes affected nearly every applications of skills and more. Todd is playing on an lack of understanding for the "spreadsheet" that spreadsheat makes the whole game dynamic rather than everying being the same. the whole point of luck was that it intentionally did not have a skill to make it quicker to increase, its point was that you were rewarded with better loot earlier on by sacraficeng attribute points on luck rather than strength or another attribute.

if you understand how the spread sheet works you'll realize its what makes individual character progression possible rather than having a number of perks and you would only be unique based on the premise that not every one will have the same list of perks. but it doesn't change the fact that the removal of the "spreadsheet" for a perk "tree" is that there was characters which you fleshed out and there will now be premade character combinations and there will be no true unique characters.

Athletics and Acrobatics had there uses in Oblivion but the skills leveled up too randomly and under Skyrim's system I don't want to gain beneficial perks or extra levels because of the randomness of Acrobatics/Athletics when I want to be a Battle Mage.

Firstly, Athletics and Speed were the DEFINITION of redundant. Secondly, Acro was marginally useful in that if you leveled it to 70+ you'd be able to get places that someone lower couldn't but it was generally not helpful in other ways. As someone noted, there were 'perks' for it in Oblivion but I some were just things that they limited more than before (no attacks while jumping/falling) and others were novelty (water jumping), only dodge was really that important but it isn't what they seem to want for combat this time around so it likely wouldn't exist even if Acro was still in. If you read my last section you'd note that there are new ways to have characters be 'faster' in a general sense (they can run longer)

With ranged weapon damage, I think it will tied to the associated skill directly rather than a specific perk to increase its effectiveness. Same with Personality->Speechcraft. With encumbrance I guess it will tied to Stamina. Dunno about movement speed though. Maybe innate racial characteristics or something, but I want to make uncharacteristically speedy yet still pretty darn frail Altmer too sometimes, I hope the new system allows this.

I wanted to weigh in on this, because this is something I've thought about for awhile, and then http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2011/04/18/skyrim-skills/#more-57393 "What we found was those attributes actually did something else. e.g. intelligence affected magicka. They all trickled down to some other stat." I understand the thinking here. If the reason for increasing A is to increase B, then get rid of A and go straight to B. But I've always thought that the skills and attributes should have been governed by more than one thing. For example, your "persuasion" would be a mixture of "personality" and "willpower" (I'm using Morrowind skills and attributes here because there are more of them). That way, if you had a personality of 50 and a willpower of 75, the median would be 62.5. That would be the top level for training that skill. Then, suppose you used persuasion enough times to generate a level-up. The persuasion skill itself has raised to 50, let's say. Then, maybe, you can dump all 5 points into "Personality," or "Willpower," or you could split them. But if you chose some other attribute, you only get 1 point for that increase. To get the bonus, you have to dump it into one of the governing skills. That way, it's not just A to B. There's a C involved too, and maybe even a D! Because, if you think about it, something like "acrobatics" isn't just strength, but speed and endurance, too. And that way, just jumping around all day doesn't do a whole lot. The underlying gameplay mechanic--the die roll that governs success or failure--is based on several factors, not just the skill itself. A skill of 100 in acrobatics doesn't do you much good if your strength, speed, and endurance are low (as an example that wouldn't happen under true gameplay). Every single skill should have at least two governing attributes. This would satisfy the issue Todd has with the A to B mechanic, but also give us players something we would like to have--namely, the ability to generate completely different characters with different strengths and weaknesses, while at the same time, eliminating the easy grind for bumping your character to levels of incredible power. The whole Morrowind training thing would be thrown out of whack. The only real downside to this system is that it would be complex for the console players. But, frankly, I think the game should be designed as a PC game first, then ported to consoles (if possible). Because frankly, the consoles were designed to play JRPGS and the yearly re-issues of Madden , not complex western RPGs like this.

Burkee. MW had intellegence speech checks, the likliness of a successful bribe or intimedate, etc... got a slight bonus the higher your intellegence was. and intellegence and all other attributes should have a speech option if its high up because all of them can be used in either body language or being able to manipulate a npc that has a lower intellegence than you.

Mmmm... is there lower IQ among console players...? Seriously, they are just as people who play on PCs, darn it! And what problem would a console offer at playing a western RPG, explain me!

Me too, and I hope the new system finds a way to accomodate any character style. I sincerely doubt they would purposefully move to a potentially limiting system. The point I was trying to make was there are a lot of possibilites for how folding attributes into other systems can be beneficial.