now I am slightly depressed : V - Skyrim

» Mon May 02, 2011 7:00 pm

We don't know all 18 skills, so one might have perks associated with speed. Also, upon every level up, you can upgrade health/magicka/stamina. I'm sure the more you raise stamina the longer/faster you can run. The more you raise health the more you can carry. Sounds great to me. Thank you Beth.

» Tue May 03, 2011 4:56 am

actually bit more than slightly. the hacked two skills and replaced them with a button?! why not just replace combat with a button that automates your character to fight enemies for you, or a button combination that just ends the game and declares that you've won? and they tossed out attributes? why? now there is nothing, other than physical appearance, that seperates my character from any one else's. No one can say that SK isn't dumbing down TES now, its incontravertable, they replaced two whole skill sets with a button! not to mention threw out the attributes which governed every action in the game and decided to replace them with... nothing.

I for one am not going to buy SK, not until there are mods that undo all of this game breaking craziness. and when I do buy it I shant be calling it SK, It will be the community made elderscrolls 5.

Straw-man'ning and taking the situation out of context isn't going to help your case. They mentioned trickling down the attributes and simplifying the whole process and making short cuts for the sake of progressing forward and not being caught up in a jumble of text and useless information that translated into the same thing. Other than that, I wouldn't get bent out of shape over an attribute system as if that's the only system that governs the uniqueness of your character. Play-style, aesthetic features (face, body, etc) and morality (direct or indirect) will all help mold your character into what you want him/her to become.

» Mon May 02, 2011 9:15 pm

So, if a leveling system that's been changed for a game that's still 7 months from release is enough to depress you, what do you do when something truly catastrophic happens?

» Mon May 02, 2011 10:32 pm

They already removed a great deal of the challenge and novelty from the series between Morrowind and Oblivion, and ended up making Oblivion a much simpler and straightforward game. But I could at least turn that to my advantage to some degree - since it's a simpler and less challenging game, I could at least create some characters that I probably wouldn't have tried to play in Morrowind - I could come up with any sort of oddball combination and give it a go, and with the level scaling and nerfed combat, they could make it through the world. It's unfortunate that the novelty doesn't last - that my female Dunmer heavy armor tank ends up pretty much identical to my male Nord heavy armor tank, except for the briasts, but at least for a time I can challenge myself with a novel character and make up a bit for the game's ease.

With attributes gone, even that's gone. If this plays out as it looks like it will, my female Dunmer heavy armor tank is not only going to end up the same as my male Nord heavy armor tank - she's going to start out the same.

Wait, she starts out the same but end differently...

...

I don't see the problem here...

» Tue May 03, 2011 10:19 am

We don't know all 18 skills, so one might have perks associated with speed. Also, upon every level up, you can upgrade health/magicka/stamina. I'm sure the more you raise stamina the longer/faster you can run. The more you raise health the more you can carry. Sounds great to me. Thank you Beth.

Presuming that's the case, that represents a narrowing of options.

For instance, in Oblivion, it's possible, by pouring increases into endurance and ignoring strength, to create a character who's physically weak but resilient - the equivalent of a small, wiry but tough-as-nails person - the sort of person who couldn't bench press the bar by itself, much less with weights on it, but who can take a beating and keep going. That sort of person, if the system you mention here is the one that will be used, will be impossible to create in the game. Characters will be stuck either being strong in all regards or in none - simple and inadequate binary distinction.

I can't see how that's a net gain.

Wait, she starts out the same but end differently...

...

I don't see the problem here...

How can she "end differently?"

There are only a limited number of perks. My male Nord heavy armor tank, at the first opportunity, takes the perk best suited for a heavy armor tank. My female Dunmer heavy armor tank, at the first opportunity, takes the perk best suited for a heavy armor tank. They're still identical. At each appropriate point, they each take the perk best suited for a heavy armor tank, and they end up staying identical throughout the game (again, except for the briasts, which really doesn't count as sufficient individualisation).

» Tue May 03, 2011 9:11 am

I guess not all the perks will be skill related. There must be perks for each attribute that's gone, that's the only way that still makes sense.

» Mon May 02, 2011 8:42 pm

They've replaced them with magicka, health, and stamina. Guess I can sort of see where they're coming from, although I could see it making things simpler in terms of character uniqueness - instead of effecting, lets say, magicka regeneration specifically, by increasing a certain attribute, you now have only the option to increase every aspect of magicka itself - which entails regeneration rate as well as overall amount etc.
I guess perks will now be the big thing that will define a characters uniqueness (and the actual skills obviously). Not a bad idea I guess, in fact the more I think about it the more I think it could possibly be a better system.

» Mon May 02, 2011 11:24 pm

Minus the still-too-early resolution to not buy the game, I'm with the OP on this one. I've found much of the recent news to be disconcerting at best. The removal of attributes and further narrowing of skills reeks of genericizing - of moving this even more toward a game in which you simply take a preset character through a linear world laden with gimmicks and empty of substance.

They already removed a great deal of the challenge and novelty from the series between Morrowind and Oblivion, and ended up making Oblivion a much simpler and straightforward game. But I could at least turn that to my advantage to some degree - since it's a simpler and less challenging game, I could at least create some characters that I probably wouldn't have tried to play in Morrowind - I could come up with any sort of oddball combination and give it a go, and with the level scaling and nerfed combat, they could make it through the world. It's unfortunate that the novelty doesn't last - that my female Dunmer heavy armor tank ends up pretty much identical to my male Nord heavy armor tank, except for the briasts, but at least for a time I can challenge myself with a novel character and make up a bit for the game's ease.

With attributes gone, even that's gone. If this plays out as it looks like it will, my female Dunmer heavy armor tank is not only going to end up the same as my male Nord heavy armor tank - she's going to start out the same.

For that, I might as well not even bother creating a character at all.

I hope that with Beth apparently once again chopping substance from a game, they'll introduce some other mechanic to, at the very least, maintain the (honestly inadequate) differentiation between characters that existed in Oblivion. With their history with games, I'm pessimistic regarding that though.

We'll certainly see, but I'm also depressed today.
I hope I'm wrong.
I'm afraid I'm not.

Don't count your chickens until they've hatched.

» Tue May 03, 2011 2:13 am

" Attributes have been significantly condensed down to simply strength, stamina, and magic, which Howard says will still trickle down into the same character buckets they did when you were managing more than double that many. "

They aren't completely gone, just shaved to make room for perk trees - which add alot more to the game in terms of game-play and more specialization than Oblivion.

» Mon May 02, 2011 10:21 pm

I was actually a bit apprehensive one the removal as well in the beginning (when it was still a speculation). But after reading these recent interviews/transcripts, I think it is absolutely for the better. What I get from the TES series is that they're continually evolving into the game where you're being more and more involved (as the series goes on) with your character's progression within the game to the point that it is as if he/she is effectively your avatar. Now what I'm wondering though, is if Athletics and Acrobatics as a skill is removed, (not merged together, as some had speculated earlier,) then what skill(s) will determines our character's running speed, the rate our stamina diminishes and our jumping/dodging capabilities? Also interesting to see how it will pan out is how they deal with the encumbrance which was related to Strength in prior games, how prone you are to staggering which depends on your Agility, magicka resistance which is tied with Willpower, and so on, in Skyrim's own new system.

All said and done, it's the purpose that matters from those attributes. What I'm getting is that their intention is just moving those functions around into different places, not altogether removing it.

» Tue May 03, 2011 6:02 am

buddy I bet there will be speed perks, jumping perks different levels of perks....... perks are better than running around and jumping everywhere like a damn rabbit!

thats true, and thats why I am disapointed. with acrobatics and athletics as a skill I earned the increases in speed and jump height, the new way I just increase it when ever I please. thats not skill building thats just arbitarily improving a physical ability by improving skills to level up that have nothing to do with jumping. what if I level up purely with skills like enchant and swords, then choose the jumping perk, theres no reason for this other than to make it easier to improve your character.

We don't know all 18 skills, so one might have perks associated with speed. Also, upon every level up, you can upgrade health/magicka/stamina. I'm sure the more you raise stamina the longer/faster you can run. The more you raise health the more you can carry. Sounds great to me. Thank you Beth.

well one thing to hope for with the new system (I am not all negative, the thread is titled slightly depressed not this is the end of TES) is maybe we'll have higher magicka or spells won't be balanced towards character level so that most skills drain nearly the whole magicka meter when even physicaly possible to cast at all. [cloud top]

» Tue May 03, 2011 1:50 am

Thank you beth. I love the new system.

» Tue May 03, 2011 4:00 am

I have a feeling that actually attributes are simply out of player control. Each race and body type will have its own and the average of what you choose will be what's used, for instance a kha'jheet will run faster than Nord by default, but a large kha'jheet will only be about the same speed as a small nord. I personally think that removed is just bad phrasing.

I don't think its really far enough through to decide whether or not you are or aren't going to buy the game but I won't lose anything if you don't buy so I couldn't care less. In fact if enough people are as pretentious as you the price will go down quicker, and I can get what to me looks like one of the best games this year, a lot cheaper a lot quicker.

» Tue May 03, 2011 5:43 am

Seeing as how there is going to be 200+ perks, and characters choosing 50, I don't see any problem, and think it is far better than previous games in the series.

EDIT: And there is no point in complaining until some more perk details and character creation details are released.

» Tue May 03, 2011 8:36 am

I think one of the main objectives that Bethesda has had for this game is to allow people to play in their own style as much as possible, they're attempting to give you MORE choice, not less. Simplifying the process through reduction of the amount of attributes does not take away from the fact that it will still provide you with more choice.

» Tue May 03, 2011 5:50 am

Thank you beth. I love the new system.

Agreed.

» Mon May 02, 2011 11:00 pm

Presuming that's the case, that represents a narrowing of options.

For instance, in Oblivion, it's possible, by pouring increases into endurance and ignoring strength, to create a character who's physically weak but resilient - the equivalent of a small, wiry but tough-as-nails person - the sort of person who couldn't bench press the bar by itself, much less with weights on it, but who can take a beating and keep going. That sort of person, if the system you mention here is the one that will be used, will be impossible to create in the game. Characters will be stuck either being strong in all regards or in none - simple and inadequate binary distinction.

I can't see how that's a net gain.

But you could just be weak in a weapons skill and strong in armor skill and you would have that.

» Mon May 02, 2011 10:00 pm

I can just imagine what else they have removed.

» Tue May 03, 2011 4:23 am

well one thing to hope for with the new system (I am not all negative, the thread is titled slightly depressed

You said you're not buying it?

I really think this system is for the better.

» Mon May 02, 2011 6:44 pm

Not having athletics as an attribute is a game breaker...guess you should go buy Wii Fitness so you can get all your videogame running time in.

» Tue May 03, 2011 3:55 am

I didn't see this posted and it's very relevant to the OP: http://twitter.com/#!/DCDeacon/status/59999057111814144

Personally; the way I understand it is that they're trying to help you create the character you want over time rather than have you predict how you're going to play. This doesn't mean that they're getting rid of the results of the attributes, just putting them in a place that will allow you gain there benfits through other, more natural means. I personally like this change as it makes progression more organic. This way I feel like I'm growing with my character rather than deciding if I should re-start or not.

» Tue May 03, 2011 8:31 am

PERKS ARE FOR SKILLS, NOT ATTRIBUTES..........

abd 3 attributes does not equal customization, Todd gave an example in an interview essentially talking down the descision.

Intelligence only attributing to Magicka? what about speech checks? Willpower?

they could have done so much with the Previous attribute system but he went and used the "spreadsheety" term again LOL from this point on I dub anytime he uses the word Spreadsheety, something is getting axed.

So how are we going to do racial attributes and bonuses now?

and people say this isnt becoming FO3, Im going to Sig that too, They are going to use what works in FO3 in Skyrim be right back.

Im freaking awesome, Read it and http://www.gamesas.com/index.php?/topic/1172609-what-scares-me-the-most/page__st__20__p__17301632#entry17301632 oh and again for good measure http://www.gamesas.com/index.php?/topic/1172609-what-scares-me-the-most/

» Tue May 03, 2011 10:05 am

Pete said that attributes have been folded into skill perks AND health/magicka/stamina.

» Tue May 03, 2011 1:51 am

" Attributes have been significantly condensed down to simply strength, stamina, and magic, which Howard says will still trickle down into the same character buckets they did when you were managing more than double that many. "

They aren't completely gone, just shaved to make room for perk trees - which add alot more to the game in terms of game-play and more specialization than Oblivion.

the issue is that their replacement is perks, the difference from picking a perk and increasing your attributes based on leveling your main skills is that one is the first is the reward is given and the latter is earned. They could have had the same perk system if they just got rid of major and minor skills and let you level any skill at any time like they want to, but you don't need to kill off attributes to add perks. it only reveals that they just wanted perks to be more significant so they made them more powerful by bumping off attributes. they could have had both! but they got rid of one to make the other more relevant.

All said and done, it's the purpose that matters from those attributes. What I'm getting is that their intention is just moving those functions around into different places, not altogether removing it.

I kinda agree, and thats basicly my arguement. I don't hate change, change is good, the changes that should be taking place is improving upon the sytem that already exists, rather than junking the old and starting over again. its like removing the foundation of a house to reshingle the roof, its not necessary.

in the end it changes nothing if the new system works just as great as the old, it will never be better it will only be different rather than improved. change is good if its an improvement. this is just change to something new, not something better.

» Tue May 03, 2011 2:03 am

You do realize it is more realisitic this way right? You actually use the skill in order to level it up rather than pumping numbers into something.