Now that the mages guild is gone....

Post » Tue Jul 20, 2010 2:49 am

Well..let's see...in Oblivion, a cult of Mehrunes Dagon worshipers opened about a hundred gates to Oblivion, causing hundreds of people to die, Kvatch to be burned to the ground, Bruma to narrowly avoid the same fate, and two Emperors to be killed.

In this same time frame, a cult of Necromancers led by Mannimarco kidnapped and killed a number of mages, and waged war against the Mages Guild.
To add insult to injury, during the entire Oblivion crisis a demigod called Umaril and his daedric followers quietly moved into an abandoned Ayleid ruin, and commenced to wage war against the Imperial Church.


It would be ignorant to assume all daedra worshiping sorcerers and necromancers are evil, as many of them obviously aren't, but ignorance and superstition when bolstered by the actions of a small group of fanatical "heathens" is often the root cause of various Crusades and Inquisitions. It's possible the Synod was formed by certain Chapel priests and crusaders who felt their values and way of life had been threatened by witches long enough. I imagine its formation was a slow process which took a decade or two to solidify. Groups such as the Knights of the Nine were probably merged together with the existing Church to form this new organization.

That's all just speculation but it's based on events we've observed and the logical response that people would have to it. "Our nation and our way of living were attacked viciously by heathens and witches several times, leading to a decline in our culture. We have got to crack down on such behaviors.", etc.


The bolded statement is somewhat false. The MG waged war with the necromancers. They hunted them down like gestapos and the necromancers fought back and are considered "evil." Bethesda made necromancers super cliche in Oblivion (like most other things...)
User avatar
Marnesia Steele
 
Posts: 3398
Joined: Thu Aug 09, 2007 10:11 pm

Post » Tue Jul 20, 2010 5:43 am

The bolded statement is somewhat false. The MG waged war with the necromancers. They hunted them down like gestapos and the necromancers fought back and are considered "evil." Bethesda made necromancers super cliche in Oblivion (like most other things...)

Not to mention it was the Mages Guild that struck first, even before the events of Oblivion
User avatar
Rachie Stout
 
Posts: 3480
Joined: Sun Jun 25, 2006 2:19 pm

Post » Mon Jul 19, 2010 9:03 pm

I look forward to meeting Arch Mage Traven
I'll ask him. okay?
User avatar
Laurenn Doylee
 
Posts: 3427
Joined: Sun Dec 03, 2006 11:48 am

Post » Mon Jul 19, 2010 11:12 pm

I'm glad that the Retard's guild was done away with. I just hope the Synod/College of Whispers don't fall down into the same path.
User avatar
tegan fiamengo
 
Posts: 3455
Joined: Mon Jan 29, 2007 9:53 am

Post » Mon Jul 19, 2010 4:52 pm

I'm glad that the Retard's guild was done away with. I just hope the Synod/College of Whispers don't fall down into the same path.

Agreed, or at least we know there are tendencies/doctrines that clearly state it, instead of craptasitc and pathetic excuses of bureaucracy. A witch hunter's guild dedicated to hunting down "heretics" would be interesting, as long as they do it in a grey fashion. Something like the Empire's (WH)Witch Hunters and Temple of Sigmar, where they WILL burn a village and KILL 100s of its own innocent citizens, just to catch and interrogate/kill 1 chaos cultist. They may do "good" in hunting down dangerous criminals, but the methods can range from sensible to ultra brutal, but leaning towards mostly brutal.
User avatar
Ron
 
Posts: 3408
Joined: Tue Jan 16, 2007 4:34 am

Post » Tue Jul 20, 2010 12:31 am

Agreed, or at least we know there are tendencies/doctrines that clearly state it, instead of craptasitc and pathetic excuses of bureaucracy. A witch hunter's guild dedicated to hunting down "heretics" would be interesting, as long as they do it in a grey fashion. Something like the Empire's (WH)Witch Hunters and Temple of Sigmar, where they WILL burn a village and KILL 100s of its own innocent citizens, just to catch and interrogate/kill 1 chaos cultist. They may do "good" in hunting down dangerous criminals, but the methods can range from sensible to ultra brutal, but leaning towards mostly brutal.


Maybe it will be like the game "Dragon Age", with its Templars hunting down "apostate" mages and keeping watch over the officially-sanctioned mages. As with the other factions in that game, the Templars aren't black-and-white. There are a number of narrow-minded ones (and rumors of brutal Templars) but there are also just as many who are humble and even-handed in their treatment of others.
User avatar
P PoLlo
 
Posts: 3408
Joined: Wed Oct 31, 2007 10:05 am

Post » Tue Jul 20, 2010 2:43 am

Maybe it will be like the game "Dragon Age", with its Templars hunting down "apostate" mages and keeping watch over the officially-sanctioned mages. As with the other factions in that game, the Templars aren't black-and-white. There are a number of narrow-minded ones (and rumors of brutal Templars) but there are also just as many who are humble and even-handed in their treatment of others.

That sounds a lot like what the Empire does. They have a branch of "imperial sanctioned mages" who are kept under the close eye of the temple of Sigmar, and have the witch hunters go around burning downs and going undercover to root out unsanctioned or heretical mages and cultists. Heck, many of the witch hunters come from fearful peasant backgrounds, especially the young, while a bunch of grizzled vets, while highly brutal, are a bit more sensible when rooting out cultists from innocents.
User avatar
Umpyre Records
 
Posts: 3436
Joined: Tue Nov 13, 2007 4:19 pm

Post » Tue Jul 20, 2010 5:17 am

Any hint that the identities of the Gods have changed? After all the Emperor died and that dynasty ended so is there room for a new God. Plus there is the Precursor ... and the possibility of old gods re-awakening. So would that put any current Gods out of the picture - assuming there are 9 max can be awake at one time?

Take it from there might that change the balance of things and maybe permit a change in ethos of 'the church'. This Synod might be made up of Necro-worshipers posing as God-worshipers for instance ....

edit - and dony forget the Hist - what do they worship? There is a City of Necromancers in BM by all accounts
User avatar
Josephine Gowing
 
Posts: 3545
Joined: Fri Jun 30, 2006 12:41 pm

Post » Tue Jul 20, 2010 5:29 am

Any hint that the identities of the Gods have changed? After all the Emperor died and that dynasty ended so is there room for a new God. Plus there is the Precursor ... and the possibility of old gods re-awakening. So would that put any current Gods out of the picture - assuming there are 9 max can be awake at one time?

Take it from there might that change the balance of things and maybe permit a change in ethos of 'the church'. This Synod might be made up of Necro-worshipers posing as God-worshipers for instance ....

edit - and dony forget the Hist - what do they worship? There is a City of Necromancers in BM by all accounts

I could get into my apocalypse theories pertaining to the Nine Divines, but would need it's own thread. As for the Hist, the Hist don't need to worship. They are physical gods, the first beings on the planet-chunk that the rest attached to. The Argonians something like worship them, often ignoring other gods it seems. Also, the Argonian belief seems to be a Hist themed Dreamsleeve, where the soul returns to the Hist and is reborn, with all of its conscious memories gone.
User avatar
Louise Dennis
 
Posts: 3489
Joined: Fri Mar 02, 2007 9:23 pm

Post » Tue Jul 20, 2010 9:13 am

The bolded statement is somewhat false. The MG waged war with the necromancers. They hunted them down like gestapos and the necromancers fought back and are considered "evil." Bethesda made necromancers super cliche in Oblivion (like most other things...)



I know....and if you read down farther in my post you'll see that I quite plainly stated not all Necros are evil.

But it's telling that Mannimarco's cult didn't even attempt to challenge the ban on necromancy through legal means. They could have appealed to the Elder Council or something. But they didn't. They scattered, put on black robes and started killing innocent people.
User avatar
i grind hard
 
Posts: 3463
Joined: Sat Aug 18, 2007 2:58 am

Post » Mon Jul 19, 2010 9:11 pm

The bolded statement is somewhat false. The MG waged war with the necromancers. They hunted them down like gestapos and the necromancers fought back and are considered "evil." Bethesda made necromancers super cliche in Oblivion (like most other things...)

Technically, The necromancers strike first, attacking the grove where the staves come from and murdering the caretakers.
User avatar
Dawn Porter
 
Posts: 3449
Joined: Sun Jun 18, 2006 11:17 am

Post » Tue Jul 20, 2010 8:29 am

Technically, The necromancers strike first, attacking the grove where the staves come from and murdering the caretakers.

And when the Mages Guild retaliated, it did so in the name of self-preservation.

Edit: Wow, the second page and Godwin's Law has already come into effect.
User avatar
Andres Lechuga
 
Posts: 3406
Joined: Sun Aug 12, 2007 8:47 pm

Post » Tue Jul 20, 2010 7:02 am

Technically, The necromancers strike first, attacking the grove where the staves come from and murdering the caretakers.

Actually, the Mages Guild struck first immediately after the debates. The Mages Guild had began to persecute the necromancers well before Oblivion.
User avatar
lauren cleaves
 
Posts: 3307
Joined: Tue Aug 15, 2006 8:35 am

Post » Mon Jul 19, 2010 10:35 pm

Actually, the Mages Guild struck first immediately after the debates. The Mages Guild had began to persecute the necromancers well before Oblivion.

They didn't strike at necromancy, they just refused to associate with anyone who practiced it.
User avatar
Jonathan Braz
 
Posts: 3459
Joined: Wed Aug 22, 2007 10:29 pm

Post » Mon Jul 19, 2010 9:22 pm

They didn't strike at necromancy, they just refused to associate with anyone who practiced it.



I remember references to the MG hunting down and killing necromancers before the start of Oblivion. Can't remember where I saw it, though.
User avatar
dean Cutler
 
Posts: 3411
Joined: Wed Jul 18, 2007 7:29 am

Post » Tue Jul 20, 2010 8:59 am

They didn't strike at necromancy, they just refused to associate with anyone who practiced it.

AFTERWORD

I regret to acknowledge the truth behind the rumor that Master Ulliceta gra-Kogg was more than an apologist for Necromancy, she was a Necromancer herself. Upon this revelation, the Knights of the Lamp attempted to arrest her at the Guildhouse in Orsinium, but she made good her escape. We have every confidence in the replacement Magister in Orsinium.

Though I disagreed, I respected her logical reasoning enough to include her arguments in this book, and I see no reason to remove them. It is disappointing, however, to see that her interest in 'the truth' was nothing more than a euphemism for her slavery to the Black Arts.

This unfortunate situation merely illustrates how essential it is for Guildmembers to be wary of the lure of Necromancy, and be vigilant to its practitioners' infiltration in our Mages Guild.
Mages Guild struck first.
User avatar
Isabell Hoffmann
 
Posts: 3463
Joined: Wed Apr 18, 2007 11:34 pm

Post » Mon Jul 19, 2010 9:36 pm

To Hellmouth: I will admit, forgot about that. Still, that hardly qualifies as striking first, as they were attempting to arrest her. Necromancy may in fact be illegal in Orsinium, hence why they didn't just kick her out of the guild like they do to most necromancers.

And I guess there was Lorgren Benirus, but their response to him was very justified, considering what he was planning.
User avatar
Tai Scott
 
Posts: 3446
Joined: Sat Jan 20, 2007 6:58 pm

Post » Tue Jul 20, 2010 2:02 am

To Hellmouth: I will admit, forgot about that. Still, that hardly qualifies as striking first, as they were attempting to arrest her. Necromancy may in fact be illegal in Orsinium, hence why they didn't just kick her out of the guild like they do to most necromancers.

And I guess there was Lorgren Benirus, but their response to him was very justified, considering what he was planning.



Lorgren Benirus was a hero of the people. Anvil wouldn't be in the sorry state it is now if he was still alive. The mage's guild assassinated him in his prime, such a terrible lost of... uh... unlife.
User avatar
Umpyre Records
 
Posts: 3436
Joined: Tue Nov 13, 2007 4:19 pm

Post » Tue Jul 20, 2010 3:17 am

Lorgren Benirus was a hero of the people. Anvil wouldn't be in the sorry state it is now if he was still alive. The mage's guild assassinated him in his prime, such a terrible lost of... uh... unlife.

Haven't you read his diary? Even among necromancers, he was nasty. Anvil would be a lot worse off if his plans came to fruition.
User avatar
kelly thomson
 
Posts: 3380
Joined: Thu Jun 22, 2006 12:18 pm

Post » Tue Jul 20, 2010 6:57 am

To Hellmouth: I will admit, forgot about that. Still, that hardly qualifies as striking first, as they were attempting to arrest her. Necromancy may in fact be illegal in Orsinium, hence why they didn't just kick her out of the guild like they do to most necromancers.

And I guess there was Lorgren Benirus, but their response to him was very justified, considering what he was planning.

Actually, orsinium was considered neutral, if 'On the Preparation of the Corpse' is to be correct by OB, as the author desired to have negotiations with the leaders to see if they'll donate orc bodies for study.
User avatar
Lexy Dick
 
Posts: 3459
Joined: Mon Feb 12, 2007 12:15 pm

Post » Tue Jul 20, 2010 10:26 am

Actually, orsinium was considered neutral, if 'On the Preparation of the Corpse' is to be correct by OB, as the author desired to have negotiations with the leaders to see if they'll donate orc bodies for study.

Of course, back when Corpse Preparation was written, I don't think it was banned in the Mages Guild either.
User avatar
djimi
 
Posts: 3519
Joined: Mon Oct 23, 2006 6:44 am

Post » Tue Jul 20, 2010 2:55 am

Of course, back when Corpse Preparation was written, I don't think it was banned in the Mages Guild either.

But nothing has otherwise stated Orsinium has prejudices against it. Plus, it was not that Orisnium guards that went to arrest the necromancer, it was the Mages Guild's personal army.
User avatar
Kaley X
 
Posts: 3372
Joined: Wed Jul 05, 2006 5:46 pm

Post » Mon Jul 19, 2010 10:20 pm

But nothing has otherwise stated Orsinium has prejudices against it. Plus, it was not that Orisnium guards that went to arrest the necromancer, it was the Mages Guild's personal army.

If it wasn't illegal in Orsinium, then they were likely there to apprehend her for breaking the Guild rules, which would warrant being expelled and shunned from the guild, at the worst.
User avatar
Shannon Lockwood
 
Posts: 3373
Joined: Wed Aug 08, 2007 12:38 pm

Post » Tue Jul 20, 2010 2:29 am

If it wasn't illegal in Orsinium, then they were likely there to apprehend her for breaking the Guild rules, which would warrant being expelled and shunned from the guild, at the worst.

As far as I am aware, they had yet to formalize a ban. It was after the debates that they did.
Plus, there is this hypocritical conclusion after the debate:
CONCLUSION

The risks of studying Necromancy outweigh its usefulness. The Guild does not wish to censor the study of any of its members, but it will not tolerate studies in the Black Arts, except in limited form for the purpose of combating its evil adherents. This may only been done by rare individuals who have proven themselves both highly skilled and highly cautious, and then only with my express permission and supervision.

Then they just went "oh, she was a necromancer all along, grr arrest her for being one." They barge in and attempted to arrest her. And again, if it was illegal, the Orsinium guards would have stepped in, but they didn't. It only mentioned the Mages Guild's private army, so in the face of the law, she was still innocent.

Plus, it's not like we really know if they had an attempt at stopping her practice. We were only told they found out somehow, and sent their private army after her. And I honestly doubt they would have been fair.
User avatar
alicia hillier
 
Posts: 3387
Joined: Tue Feb 06, 2007 2:57 am

Post » Tue Jul 20, 2010 12:40 pm

As far as I am aware, they had yet to formalize a ban. It was after the debates that they did.

It was also after the debates that it was discovered that she was practicing necromancy.

Then they just went "oh, she was a necromancer all along, grr arrest her for being one." They barge in and attempted to arrest her. And again, if it was illegal, the Orsinium guards would have stepped in, but they didn't. It only mentioned the Mages Guild's private army, so in the face of the law, she was still innocent.

Plus, it's not like we really know if they had an attempt at stopping her practice. We were only told they found out somehow, and sent their private army after her. And I honestly doubt they would have been fair.

She did break the rules that Traven set. The Knights of the Lamp were enforcing the guild law, probably to bring her to a Mages Guild trial to determine whether or not to expel her. We don't know how long it was between when the ban was enacted and when it was discovered she was practicing necromancy behind the guild's backs. And really, if she went peacefully, the worst punishment they could enact would be expulsion.
User avatar
Ashley Clifft
 
Posts: 3468
Joined: Thu Jul 26, 2007 5:56 am

PreviousNext

Return to The Elder Scrolls Series Discussion