Don't know about you, but Mario and Zelda violence was the best I got when I was a child. And frankly, this argument has been taken to such extremes, it's getting ridiculous. I wouldn't show a child something as violent as Saw, and likewise I wouldn't let them watch porm (unless they happen to discover it by the time they're 12 or something, in which case, it's the talk immediately). Sure, my examples are somewhat exaggerated, but I wouldn't want to play FO3 in front of a kid, or have them watch me look at a playboy.

advlts, my siblings, and their friends. When I move out soon enough, I'll be with an alumnus fraternity brother, so it's less awkward. Still, there is a thing known as decency. I wouldn't play full frontal dress up, or watch porm in front of my family and their friends.

All I see from your post is either trying to insult me, and make too many assumptions without really arguing it.

There's a difference between porm and immersion through nudity, just as there's a difference between excitedly cutting the limbs off various stuffed animals and killing a goblin in a video game.

Yes, Portugal has a lot of idiosyncrasies in laws. That's why we are a funny people like north-americans too... :hubbahubba: (BTW, my previous post is a friendly joke, i hope you understand)... But this subject of "parent consent" it's a little confuse for me, i suppose, but thanks for the clarifications.

Anyway, in Portugal (also in France and Spain) the legal age to drive, married, smoke, vote, join military and see a pormo movie is 18. Drink i'm not sure, but here in Portugal i think is 16, but we are a large produtor of GOOD WINES, i guess that's why... :celebration: :celebration: :celebration:

I know, you have no idea how hard that is, but I like this place and I'd like to stay here...had I not been writing this out beforehand it would've come out much differently.

I understand that, and its a good point.
But shouldnt it then be better not to make such a big issue over nudity?
If its treated as such a hot topic, something dangerous and forbidden, wouldnt that make the appeal for young people to seek it out greater than if it was just another boring thing?
Where I live it is not uncommon for women to sunbathe topless, especially on a beach, women briastfeed their children and its also quite normal and accepted to go to a sauna naked.
Ive never thought of a naked body anything other than a fact of life, like mailmen or cereal. Slightly boring even.
Personally, I find a good depiction of a scantily clad hotty a lot more interesting than a totally nvde one, because one needs to leave something for the imagination.
But I still think there is nothing wrong with Dagerfall style nudity. It adds a bit of.. verisimilitude

I walked around naked sometimes because I forget my cloths or my towel fell off. No one wanted to see that in my fraternity house. Certainly never wanted to see my fraternity brothers naked or anyone else for that matter, save for the good looking girls that would come to the house's parties. And that's RL. Don't see how that adds to anything other than a quick "oh crap, saw a naked person!" or nvde dress up.

Also, why would someone cut the limbs off a stuffed animal? That's not right.

First off fixed for annoyingness lol. But the whole GTA SA thing was kind of a fiasco and was all around just stupid. First, released as M as the regular game. Then someone found the hot coffee thing and showed it off online, someone even made a patch for it to be in the game, with nudity. That made the ESRB go ape [censored] and make it AO. Rockstar recalled games from stores and removed it entirely getting it back to M.

Wasn't so much ESRB's bad but games really shouldn't be judged based on content that is supposed to be locked and unreachable. If someone can crack into game files and extract info that was never supposed to be public then it should be on them.

That's not the point, you need to think bigger than that.

In my case, it's about acceptance. The fact that nudity is taboo in any way is beyond ridiculous. Violence exists in the real world, there's no sense in trying to shelter people from it because that will ultimately make them naive, you may call me a cynic but I much prefer a realistic view of the world than lying to myself. Violence is understandable however, violence is not a good thing, you can't argue that in any convincing way and while I don't really agree with censorship laws regarding that either I do understand where people are coming from.

Nudity however, is not harmfull in any way. That doesn't mean I'd like to see people walk around naked (Well, some people but I digress), it means I want to see people get their heads out of their asses and understand that it's not something to be afraid of, it's not something people need to be sheltered or protected from.

I don't know if I have the vocabulary to describe how depressing this really is, that such a large portion of mankind is completely devoid of reasonable thought. Protecting your kids is important, but there is such a thing as being overprotective and that does nothing but harm. It's a fine line, but it's not a difficult issue if you take the time to think about it like a reasonable person.

I'm not sure about other countries, but I know the US has a stick up it's ass on nudity and Germany on violence...

I hate my country sometimes...

I'm fairly certain no one wants to see you kill a complete stranger either, yet you're able to do such a thing in-game. So how is it any different from seeing a occasional nipble every now and then?


Going to such extremes to censor those two things only hurts future generations. If you aren't knowledgeable on a certain subject, you're bound to go out and experiment yourself.

I mean, hell, you teach children how to cope with a great many things while growing up so that they're able to function in real life. six and nudity are no different. By making nudity seem more taboo than natural and shying away from the subject of six, you're only hurting your children. Not that pertains to you, of course, or even this topic. :X

You can see nipbles, just take a male character's shirt off.

But really, this question comes with the question, what does it add to the game? Fighting is a mechanic grounded in this game in order to fight bandits, demon, and the undead as we explore dangerous territory. Slaying a random stranger is just a consequence of being able to fight, unless you really want to suggest towns and cities will not allow you to engage in combat, unless someone tries to attack you. Immersion you say? So, where would it appear? Someone in the bathtub? Stripping a dead enemy naked? Seeing people make love in bed? Brothels are obvious places, but how does it exactly add to it. Why is it immersive, other than we can do that in real life (though sometimes with a consequence).

Yes, I rebember now the controversy about the hot coffee.

About nudity in-games, i really, really can't understand the fuss in ESRB ratings and USA laws related with sixual content. In Europe, however, because the PEGI ratings are directed related with the age of the player, rating games turn things more "concrete" and simpler (for me anyway).

Temple of Elemental Evil had a brothel with quests in it... but the publisher had them disable it. ~Serious...
Evil quests like the madam asks you to handle (solve) a new 'girl' that won't earn her keep. :shocking:

*On the subject of "immursion"; just consider an evil slaver with a pen full of beat up people, and yet this heartless villain lets them keep their modesty ~when really they most likely would not.

Well, the same could be said about extra blood and gore, it adds for a cooler fighting experience to be able to finish an enemy off by cutting their head clean off etc. Like I said earlier in the thread, places such as chapels of Dibella and various cults just feel way more awesome if there's semi-nvde priestesses greeting you at the entrance tending to your wounds or whatnot/lightly clothed cultists engaging in various rituals such as animal sacrifice etc.

It's something you expect as a result of an action you take. Sure, it adds no more to the overall immersion than seeing blood when striking an opponent, and will likely appear less often, but it still has its place. There's simply no point in creating an immersive world where you can be who you want to be, do what you want to do, and actually feel like you're living the adventure playing out in front of you when you're still going to put limits on such simple things. Of course, there are things that are limited because of hardware or time (which is more than understandable), but nudity is something that could really be added effortlessly, and although I'll play Skyrim regardless of whether nudity is included or not, it still won't feel right or genuine -- something that has been a staple of TES games since their creation, and something that's supposed to really be the focus for Skyrim.

Parent consent happens in the case of things like marriage, joining the military, seeing nudity etc. Basically they are considered advlt activities, and instead of the child deciding they are mature enough to see them the parent is given the right to allow the child to see do those activities. So a 17 year old shows up at the Army recruiter he can take a pamphlet and talk to them, but he can't sign up. If the 17 year old shows up with a parent who says, Joe is mature enough they waive the 18 year old requirement. Marriage and joining the military have hard caps, you can't convince anyone your 10 year old is mature enough to join the marines. Seeing advlt content is generally left completely in the hands of the parents. If they give the okay they can see it. While the general society does not want kids to see X material, the right of parents to raise their child as they see fit is normally a higher right.(the families who don't believe in doctors is one of the few exceptions to this rule) It is why on the other side of the equation while six education classes are the norm for students, parents have the right to request that their child not take those classes.

The drinking thing, well 18 was a fairly normal age in a lot of states. And until the mid 80's joining the military allowed you to drink. But, one of the most powerful political groups in America is MADD(mothers against drunk driving), basically enough parents who lost their kids due to drunk drivers raised enough money and yelled loud enough that most states bumped the drinking age up to 21 and joining the military is no longer an exception to the drinking age. If it is the right idea or the wrong idea I leave to others. Personally though, I was fairly damn immature until I was 25, and I was probably more mature than most of my peers. I'm getting close to 40 now and I probably still have a lot more growing up to do. I had access to alcohol at a much earlier age, the bar near I worked served anyone who had my companies uniform on.(I worked as red lobster as a bus boy from the age of 17) Still when I was 21 I drank way too much, as I got older I matured and drank a lot less. I never drove drunk, but plenty of my fellow waiters would. While I thought they were idiots, who can say what I would have done if my apartment hadn't been within walking distance. So at what age are people mature enough to drink? The people in my age range at the time weren't displaying that kind of maturity and they were of the legal age.

So why is seeing a female nipble worse? I have seen network shows that literally blur only the female nipble and no other part of it. Heck DIGIMON (_{digital monsters, digimon are the champions} ), which is a children's cartoon, had transformation sequences where it would show naked (although drawn) children and all they would do is not detail the nipbles and crotches. On boys that hides a lot but on girls, not so much. It's just strange.

It doesn't add too much to the game other than realism and immersion, you are right there. And that is basically immersion by definition, being in a fluid, believable world that doesn't jolt you out of it with things that don't make sense. And I don't think six needs to be involved in ANY way, but if you kill someone and steal their clothes they will be naked.

Perhaps, then maybe it makes it seem to consequence free. If doctors can't decide on whether or not an egg is good for you, I really don't have much faith in them determining which system has a more beneficial effect on society. Every society is different, so what might make something seen commonplace and normal in one might cause problems in another. Why is crime so much higher in some places when the society seems to have the same rules. Different places react to the same event differently. I have no idea why, but I see it happen. Personally if I were Bethesda, I'd put underwear on people, I'd add an uncut version that made it a removable item and maybe upped gore levels a bit, or added a brothel. The normal version, underwear would not come off the brothel is an empty house and gore was at normal levels. Wallmart can sell the normal version, the uncut version would be out there for the people who want this stuff. Since they are probably going to make the model nvde anyways, why not just add the underwear as a removable item with a checkbox somewhere activating or deactivating it.

I don't know if this has already been said, because people are replying faster than I can read.

Quote from Todd Howard
"I know nudity is an issue with fans because it was in Daggerfall and such. That's something I wouldn't do even if we were allowed to. I think it distracts from the tone of the game. Maybe I'm still too immature (note from Pete: I can vouch that this is, in fact, the case), but when I see briasts in a movie, I still yell "Boobies!".

from http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Oblivion:Fan_Interview question #19

ditto!

JimC

Maybe they could just add in-game support for the parental controls... add textures for mild-nudity and non-nvde and click them on or off if your so worried.

Thanks!! I can understand far better the "parent consent" concept now. And ?(...)right of parents to raise their child as they see fit is normally a higher right? i'm 110% agree!

In Europe the drinking thing begins to be a problem too because unfortunately many people around age 19 and 20 died because they are drunk and go driving. I wonder if the USA are more advanced in this matter that us? I beginning to think so. Personally i do not even really like to drink (well, maybe a glass of wine sometimes with friends or at dinner, like i said, we have really VERY good wines here in Portugal :yes: ), however i never drive drunk, but ultimately this subject is a kind of maturity and choise of course for everyone...

About the nudity fuss in USA in videogames, like i said too before, this i can't understand but i think this is a cultural issue. Here in Europe the violence is a major subject that nudity (not only in videogames of course), and this is a culture issue also... To be totally honest, we are simply tired of wars... :gun: ===> :nono:

Nudity is kinda a natural thing here, all the kids have six education with age 13 and 14; nudity are in arts for instance... Even one of the statues representing the democracy in parlament has a briast "unclosed", so... Is natural :dance:

I want FULL nudity... If I can kill someone I can undress someone...

There's a huge difference between nudity for realism and immersion, and nudity presented for sixual purposes. (ie. porm.)

Personally, it wouldn't bother me in the slightest if NPC's could be stripped naked after death, and possibly slept naked. Having the nvde meshes included would also help with making more varying NPC's, both friendly and enemy. This would help with immersion.

However, if the game included graphic six, that would be crossing a line, in my opinion.

EDIT: As far as the how acceptable nudity is in today's society, I think it totally depends on the family. Personally, I was raised thinking if a woman wasn't wearing a skii jacket and sweat pants, then she was dressed inappropriately. Obviously I don't think like that anymore. But I knew many people who saw nudity as something appropriate if presented right.

I realize that most of the ones who want nudity are men and they only think about naked women, (mostly). I sure want the orc brute to keep his pants on, so if the game adds new clothing, "underwear" and "bra", then it would be great.