Well, gee, I hope he doesn't know what those words mean, or I'm going to feel really silly. I don't think ALL Vehkspeak is meant to be comprehended, and the parts of the passage that I do understand communicate amazing possibilities.

It also turned the Orcs and Dwarves themselves into elves and created Lorkhan. Pretty [censored].

Mirror the spell? Doubt it, he probably means reverse logicians phasing in and out trying to stop the problem before it starts.

Cocoons.

What happens if you reverse history such that you are not born?

They'll retcon your existence.

I can't say I've looked into it enough to know exactly what they mean.

More or less the way I read it is that there were/are Altmer skilled in the 'Mirror Logistics' who were through their particular magick able to circumvent the time-altering power of the Numidium by protecting themselves in these 'chrysalis shells' (basically cocoons of magick removing them from the Numidium's direct influence). If you take 'mirror' in normal sense of magick reflection, then this may make sense since it sorta uses the Numdium's time-power against it. This allows them (the Altmer), since the siege lasted from the Mythic Era to the Fifth and is figuratively still going on, to still actually be fighting the battle in some sense; sorta like an inter-timeline/myth battle (thus since they're not really in either timeline/myth, but rather in magickal time cocoons, they phase in and out). The Altmer of today see them but don't know what the crap's going on (really, why would they) unless they 'stare too long' and break their 'possipoints' (probably their own point/state in this reality/myth/timeline), which as Shades sortof alluded to probably has something to do with screwing up the myths (particularly those regarding the person doing the staring). Afterall, if you stare at something from another myth/timeline for too long, it's gonna start to screw up your own...

Of course, that's just my speculation for the moment. I haven't done any in-depth study into any of the lore, much less MK's stuff, within the last 6 months so I'm a little rusty... I wouldn't doubt it if there were connections to something somewhere else...

No matter what you do, changing the past is impossible without first disproving any facet of reality. This in turn, would not change anything but instead prove something else. If anything in the past were to be disproved, any actions created through that fallacy would also be disproved. If you could in some way disprove your own existence, I guess you would poof into a glorious cloud of paradoxical nonexistence.

Although, it would be easier if I was wrong and reverse temporal engineering was possible.

Wohoo, I've been searching for that quote for a long time, remembering what was said about the Altmer still fighting Numidium, but couldn't find it.

As to the topic: The Numidium is the Crux of Transcendence and as always when you have a crux, sacrifices - and no minor ones - are involved. Ask the Dwemer which sacrifices they made and ask Tiber Septim, too.

And if they win? Could this be what MK meant when he stated back on 1-10-08 something to the effect of erasing the "Sons of Talos" from the pattern of myth and returning to nonlinear time? (Yeah, Paws, that's where I get that idea. )

Next question: are they winning?

___TWM

No offence, but could you all please stay on topic and talk about specifically the Numidium, and Dagoth Ur's 2nd Numidium? Thanks.

It seems that the Numidium (aka "Walk-Brass" or "the Brass God") is still in existence in some timelines where it has yet to defeat the Altmer. Its powers of time and space seem quite formidable, and that's with it being powered with the lesser heart. Imagine what it could have done with the Heart of Lorkhan powering it!

___TWM

Heck, I don't see why Dagoth didn't just put the heart in a backpack and wander around kicking ass.

I don't even think ALL Vehkspeak actually means something.

I wasn't around for that post so this is the first time I've came across it.
Are you proposing that should the 'Mirror Logicians' win somehow that this would erase the 'Sons of Talos' and restore nonlinear time? If that's the question, I would probably guess no, as it seems that would only erase the literal 'sons of talos' which I doubt its referring to; but rather removing those things that make this world more real than its supposed to be (or can be if you want to return to nonlinear time) like Talos (and other enantiomorphic beings I'd assume)...

As to whether they're winning: Since we don't really have enough information to know one way or the other, I'd guess no, simply because that timeline has already been played out and they lost. They're just a few pieces that time couldn't fit back together because of their cocoon protections. Then again, if you make the argument that the 'Mirror Logicians' have yet to fully play their role in that timeline (due to them not really being fully in it during the battle), then I guess you might could say that they'll eventually change something. Still though, they are fighting a dang powerful golem...
Of course, the very fact that they still exist could be proof that they're prevailing, or at least not losing. I'd like to read some account from somebody who's witnessed one of them phasing in and on whether the number of these phasings are increasing or decreasing in Summerset...

It is related to the Numidium, in this case to its conquest of the Altmer and to the extent of that victory...

A few reasons probably. First off, taking the Heart out into the open means removing it from its assured safety at Red Mountain. This makes Dagoth Ur vulnerable since his enemies will no longer have to fight their way all the way into the Heart chamber. Secondly, he has no reason to take the Heart around fighting. As far as he knows he is invisible and has all the time in world (literally) to finish Akulakhan (which he wants to finish for its own purposes), he knows that once that's done nothing will stop him. He's thinking from the perspective of a god, not of a simple warrior that wants to go around and screw crap up...

Assuming that (1) the Numidium is still laying siege to Alinor and (2) defeating the Numidium would erase the "sons of Talos" (which I assume is the Imperial race), then do we need to fear the Ayleids or Altmer more?

Luagar, for your convenience, here is the MK quote that I am referring to, dated 1-11-08 (not the 10th, as I had originally said):



___The Word Merchant of Julianos

Now THAT'S some good super-villain.

I say we pull a Pelinal, and kill all the elves!

Super-Villains. There's an entire race of 'em!

Though I have to side with Vehk on this. I don't think he would have given Numidum to Talos if somewhere along the line it would enable the possibility to royally screw up the Universe.

The Aldmeri Dominion was demolished by Numidium. Where was the Aldmeri Dominion and what people made it up?

The Altmeri Dominion was Summer Set and Valenwood, the Altmer basically dominated the Valenwood politics, but it's all in the First PGE.

Plus sea control. With some awesome xebecs.

Muthseras,

When we think in terms of Auriel being the champion of the elves and Lorkhan being the champion of mankind, the following quotes have significant meaning. Additionally, we must not forget that the Dwemer were present during the Convention. We know this because the witnesses to time becoming linear were the creators of the Towers, and Walk-Brass (aka the Numidium) was created at that time. "The outcome of the Convention was that the spirits would leave the planet. Mudus was given a second Tower at this time, Red Mountain with the Heart of the World [Heart of Lorkhan].

Time began to follow a sequential path. Those spirits that stayed behind gave up their divinity.

The witnesses to these events [Aldmer] built more towers: White-Gold [The White-Gold Tower], Crystal-like-Law [The Crystal Tower], Orichalc [?], Green-Sap [Falinesti?], Walk-Brass [Anumidium], Snow Throat [Throat of the World], et cetera. Oblivion first troubled the Mundus at this point. ... The worst Tower, Walk-Brass, went beyond creation into dis-creation. The Numidium posses a threat to the Emperor [Empire], but it is a small part of a larger evil."





___TWM

Thanks, everyone. You all have been a real help.

This may be horribly obtuse, but I get the feeling that activating the Numidium not only breaks the dragon, but also the scarab. By this, I mean it messes up spacial things as well. How else could it have been in so many places at once? I know, non-linear time. However, wouldn't the paradox created by the overlapping of these possibilities create a spacial impossibility that is only allowed if the rules of "is there" vs "is here" are bent or broken? Take for instance the whole Arcturan Heresy. It makes sense to me that in the moment that Wulfharth and Arctus were battling near a reassembled Numidium, a spacial hiccup occured, which, when rectified, the players weren't placed on the stage in exactly the same positions they were before. This explains the whole dual Underking anomaly. They did, in fact, switch places. In other words, by activating Numidium, not only do you mess with time, you mess with space. In effect, you mess with reality. For better, or worse. This makes the Numidium not only extremely powerful, but also highly dangerous. If it truly is a return to the original brush strokes, then it channels both Padomay and Anu, which means both Sithis and Anu-El, which in turn means both Aka and Lork (time + space). This is probably why it causes so many bizarre occurances, since the two are supposed to be separate (at least have been since the convention). Look at Pelinal, an avatar of the two combined could "erase land". Think of what the two (forces, not gods, although they're the same thing, but that's another discussion) could do if they were forceably combined within a machine.

OK. I think I took that train of thought a little too far, but you get the idea.

Muthsera Dude,

I do not think that is overboard at all. In fact, I have long thought that the Numidium represents a reunited Aka/Shor entity. Time and Space reunited - - a point of singularity where anything (and everything) can (and does) happen.

MK stated that the Enantiomorph embodied the healing of the "man/mer schism", which was called "the Mantella". But Numidium went haywire when one-half of the Enantiomorph betrayed the other and created an "Empire of Evil".

The question now becomes, "who out of the Enantiomorph did the betraying such that it drove the Numidium haywire?" Was it Tiber betraying Zurin? Was it Zurin betraying Wulfharth? Was it Tiber betraying Wulfharth?

The next question would be "assuming that the Enantiomorph representing the healing of the man/mer schism means that one-half of the Enantiomorph was of Elvish descent, which of them was a mer?"

Certainly not Talos, for he was proclaimed "a true son of Skyrim". Certainly not King Wulfharth, for he had long since warred against the elves, especially those in Morrowind.

Zurin Arctus? I cannot, personally, remember anyone stating his race, however if he were elvish, then we have our answer.

But, muthsera Dude, you have mentioned the time/space ability of the Numidium. It is possible that that all of the above are true, depending upon which timeline one is in.

I have found this thread extremely interesting and enlightening; I do so hope that it continues. Many thanks to Redsrock for starting it. May the Light of JHUNAL illuminate our searches, and may our fates be written in the Elder Scrolls, for I remain....


___The Word Merchant of Julianos

Second.