Arrrgh! And me mateys could take over the Bloated Float and take them Lusty Wenches as our own! Ahoy!!!

Somehow, I have difficulty understanding your point. (This is beyond my capacity of understanding English.)
I can't seem to see if you are agreeing with my opinion on the KOTN and the Knightly Orders in general, or if you were simply explaining facts with a neutral point of view.



No I don't make mods with a release date in mind. Not even an approximate. It'll be released when it'll be done.
But the order of releases for the current WIPz is the same as I've listed them: Losing My Religion, Daedra Summonning, Better Inns, Loot and Deadly Diseases.
After these five are released, I believe I'll take on the Character Generation.



All three work wonderfully together.



A little note here, when you hire services of a courtesan (Both male and female by the way), all you do is activate the bed you rented, sleep in it, and when you wake up the Courtesan returns to the tavern. He/she will undress as well when you are in your room, so if you use body mods you might see him/her naked.
They are there only for roleplaying and to add a bit of "Dirtyness" in the cute, green and happy Disney wonderland Beth turned Cyrodiil into.

It seems that he was saying that it might be possible for there to be several different representations of the Cyrodiilic religion. And maybe not all of them are "right". At least, that's what I got out of his comments. He makes a good point though, especially when you're talking about the various different religious sects inside the Cyrodiilic religion that enter around certain divines (and I guess you can consider Daedric Cults the same way). How can all of them be "right"? How is every perspective the right one? Or can we even make that argument considering we're supposed to assume that in the game, the Gods are real (although Mankar Camoran makes a good point about the Gods no longer existing in Cyrodiil. However, Martin did turn into a huge fricken dragon, so I guess we'll never know for sure.)

I dunno. The religious system in Cyrodiil is awfully lacking in my opinion. Too little explanation, too many assumptions. Hopefully you improve upon that with Losing my Religion. I'm looking forward to it!

No problem - I'll try to clarify.

In real life there are many different interpretations of any one religion. Protestant Christianity being a prime example. Buddhism another.

With Buddhism there are those who would simply call themselves Buddhists and are generally devoted to the entire idea of the Buddha and his core teachings. and at the same time there may be those who are dedicated to one specific aspect of those teachings based around understanding of one godlike manifestation of the Buddha ... the lord of mercy ... the lord of death.

Generally what we see in history is that many religions spring up regionally and are very idiosyncratic and over time cultures meld and so do the religions. So that in ancient Greece if you were in Athens and worshiped a mystery cult deity of Dionysis - the Athenians may throw rocks at your head. By the time that the Romans unified the religions - it was OK to just be a roman pagan - and even then there was further refinement to deities such as Sol Invictus (one god) and so on. As empires grow the need for regional dieties diminish and are replaced by singular or unifying ideas (Christ, Sol Invictis ... the Nine).

That does not mean that either side is absolutely correct. Perhaps the Nine are the Empires face on the previously regional and territorial faces of the Nine gods that were previously worshipped seperately.

So then having the chapels converted to individual temples or shrines (an idea I like) - that could be a return to simpler ways during the crumbling of the empire -or- that the KotN are a generalists interpretation of these Nine accpeted dieties.

Just like in real life there is room for both interpretations. and yes I prefer Neutrality.

Hope that is more clear - if not nevermind.

Let's not forget that religions also borrow/steal words/ideas from past religions. An example is the word AMEN...used by Jews and Christians. It is just part of the name of an older Egyptian God, AMEN RA.

Or as an example the major religious holidays which were intentionally set to coincide with older religious festivals. Easier to convert the pagans and heathens if you keep them worshiping on the same schedule, and adopt their religious symbolism to some extent, etc.

Having had some time to think about how to make it more clear ... I'd think a way to reconcile KotN and Dagerfall religions is in viewing the difference as a both/and proposition rather than a either/or.

It seemed you stated the proposition that it is either Daggarfall's version or KotN but can never be both.

I was merely suggesting that instead it could be that both Daggerfall's version and KotN could co-exist and not make a stand about which religion was primary or more correct. Let the player decide.

But my shortcoming in even having this discussion is that I never played Daggerfall much less Morrowind, so I don't know fundamentally the real differences other than what you wrote. If it is that the followers of the various nine ... Stendar, Akatosh, etc ... never mingled with the followers of other orders then I can see how KotN would be problematic.

Empires though necessitate unity about certain things and religion is no exception. Money is another example. So the temple of the one and the KotN - they too are part of the TES lore now. I don't know how long ago Daggerfall took place compared to Oblivion - perhaps the KotN is the empirical face on the accepted deities.

And this leads me into musing about just how shallow these stories are. Rarely is it in these mods that corruption and deceit by the empire is modded into the game. Everyone seems content with the idea that an Empire is all good and that the aliens (demons at that) are all bad. Empire = good?!? high fantasy indeed. Where are the stories of subjecting the subjects. Of the price the common man pays for those castles and so on? ah well is after all just a game.

Sorry to cloud up your thread. If none of this rings a bell for you then just ignore me - no offense taken. your mod - your rules. I'll play it either way.

Thanks for the explanation!





Thank you very much for these interesting discussions.

In Daggerfall, each religion has either a positive, neutral or negative view toward another religion. (For instance, the Akatosh Chantry is not in good terms with the House of Dibella, while the House of Dibella are have good relations with the Benevolence of Mara.)

As you said, what I hope to bring with LMR is tension between some of the Nines since their teachnings are different. And to remove the fact that every Nines are "Good". For example, the Temple of Stendarr offers free room and food to the poor, but don't expect to find this service in the School of Julianos. Actually, the School of Julianos doesn't offer services to the populace. Their large libraries are only available to members of the clergy. It's also a known fact in Tamriel that there has always been tension between the School of Julianos and the Mages Guild.

As for the KOTN, I won't be adding new dialogue for the religions about them and I won't touch what KOTN did. Since there's a lore conflict, I don't want to create an even larger one by making the religions say their views about that new knightly order. It can be Daggerfall's vision combined with KOTN, but I won't be stating why they co-exist inside the mod.


In other news, I simply wanted to state that some of Unique Landscapes' modules will not be compatible with Losing My Religion. I do some landscape changes when I place the knightly orders' headquarters in the wilderness, and there's a drastic change in the landscape around the new shrine of Kynareth as well.

I wouldnt worry too much about Unique Landscape incompatabilities. Sure it would be nice for such a potentially amazing mod to be compatible straight out of the box, but there can always be patches worked out. Looking forward to some more releases

UL will probably make their own patch, so HAVE NO FEAR!!!!!!!!

Hello Clifford...

I was just wondering, about the chapel of Dibella in Anvil, you know how the KOTN quest has it in ruin, how exactly are you going to make it look ruined for that part of the game?

cliffworm, you wouldnt happen to be making any pauldron pieces are you?....

There will be a KOTN version for those that have KOTN. The Dibella chapel will be even more wrecked than before, with all the new decorations I added. LMR's dead new NPCs will be replaced as well, after the KOTN questline.



Alas, it is something that cannot be done. I wish, though!

I can't wait!

Cliffworms, first off: I think what you're doing here is amazing, and I'm very excited about it.

I have a question concerning your changes to the chapels - do you in any way touch the altars or the script on the altars? If not, then something like my http://tesnexus.com/downloads/file.php?id=25094 plugin might be worth looking into. It brings back Morrowind's altars where you had to pay for the services, and where it was split up into Cure Disease and Cure Attributes (and Cure Blight, but there's no blight in Cyrodiil).
The plugin itself is very simple, it changes the AltaroftheNine script, nothing more. And if you use KotN together with it, then the Chapel of Stendarr will not be affected by my mod (= you get free healings), which kind of fits your idea for that chapel.
Just thought I'd mention it. You can put it on your list or maybe even use it in your own mods, I think something like that would improve the chapels a lot.

oh man, i was kinda hoping to have a chain right and steel left pauldron, with like an ebony briastplate. oh well -_-

I already change the chapel altars so that they do not heal, cure disease or restore attributes actually. Instead, you have to seek the services of an healer for this (And these services cost a lot )
The altar is now used by the script that gives you the god's blessing instead.

Thanks for your suggestion and feedback!
And by the way, I simply love your Forts of Cyrodiil resource. It is much useful for the knightly orders' headquarters.

Thanks a lot It's good to see you found some use for Forts of Cyrodiil, and it is also exactly what I had in mind for the tileset.

Good to know you're changing the altars too. Like I said, I'm very excited about seeing the final result. Just be careful not to touch Chorrol's altar, because that one gets a new script when KotN is running, so any change you've made will either break KotN or not function.

One request, if possible and if it would conflict... can you implement the equivelant of SM Plugin Refurbish - Knights in that version, so that KOTN doesn't kick in as soon as you load the game? If SM Plugin Refurbish - Knights will not conflict then never mind...

I don't know about anyone else, but I believe BETTER INNS + OBLIVION COMES ALIVE is going to be such a great addition to the game, that I may become a drunk or crackhead, and give up on doing quests.

I have another conflict to report.
Obviously, Daedra Summoning will conflict with any mod that modifies the Daedric Statue scripts. Any mods that change the mechanics for obtaining the quests (Such as OOO) will conflict. But I think that, for OOO, you can deactivate that feature.



Oh I do touch Chorrol's altar, but I'll fix it up in the KOTN version.
Thanks for letting me know!



SM Plugin Refurbish will not conflict at all. No worries. You'll be able to use it.



Thanks!
I'm sure you'll have a lot of fun in the taverns. By the way, if you use Toaster's Says Share, you can recruit the new 1200 NPCs. You can't give them equipment (since their equipment will "respawn" after 3 days), but you can get them to follow you in your adventures. Plus, if they die, they'll respawn elsewhere. Though you might not recognize them, since their equipment changes everytime. And the women have a random wig each time they respawn as well.
I haven't put dancing animations yet for some of the bar customers, but I guess it will bring a lot when I'll do so.

That is good that they die and don't immediately respawn right where you are. That kind of pisses me off when that happens in CM mods. I want to play realistically...when they die...THEY DIE! And I can't wait to try entering a tavern. Talk about will it be fun!

How's this coming along, Cliffworms? Losing My Religion and Better Inns look amazing, and those 75%+ completion percentages are making me anxious. Excellent ideas, I'll be downloading several once they're done. Trying out Let's Talk tomorrow.

It's all coming along well.
In terms of what's left to be done for Better Inns and LMR is this:

Better Inns:

- The random NPCs script that makes the "good" classes wander away at night and the "evil" classes stay. The script also makes the NPC dissapear if the player has entered another location, to simulate the come and go of the NPC.
- There are around 200 NPCs still need to be created, but that is done quick.
- Finding a way to rent a bed for more than one day.
- Inn/Tavern servin girl/man from whom you can buy food. They also come see you when you sit down somewhere.
- And the courtesans.


LMR:

- Two chapels are almost done with their interiors. The rest of the chapels are done.
- Two knightly orders have their headquarters done. Seven to go.
- The new NPCs who will populate these headquarters, with an AI Schedule.

So there's still some work to do, but it's not a lot.
I won't be working on it for this month, since I'm participating in http://www.invision.tesalliance.org/forums/index.php?/topic/1814-halloween-challenge-2009-the-oubliette/page__view__getnewpost
After that, I'll restart the work on the project.

Most likely, though, Daedra Summoning might be released first, since what is required is mostly testing.

This is going to be great...whenever you finish!