Maybe this has been covered somewhere else, but I did a search and couldn't find it, so if anyone has links that would be appreciated. I am a long time ES fan but didn't really like Oblivion, for a number of reasons. Oh well, you don't have to like every game in a series, right. Anyways, the game really screwed with established lore instead of building on it, so I was wondering what the consensus around here was for how much of Oblivion was considered actual canon. Was Mannimarco killed? Does Sutch not exist? Is Cyrodiil similar to England in environment? Are the Alyeids a myth? Is the Imperial City not really a melting pot, but a bunch of culture-less homogenized races? Is Oblivion now a Tamrielic hell instead of how it's presented in the other games? Is Sheogorath dead (I didn't play SI and only read about it, and this is what I gathered from it)? That's all I can think of right now, but I know there are other instances.

Cyrodiil is nothing like England in the game, and it definately is nothing like England in other lore.

But Oblivion, assuming it is made by Bethesda, is canon. Just because people don't like it, they can't simply not include it. I don't like Daggerfall, but you can't ignore what happened. Oblivion built on lore, although it did so in other areas which Morrowind did not cover. It simply allowed you to come to your own conclusions, rather than telling you what happened. A good example is the Renrijra Krin - plenty of clues, but not much else, and that's what I prefer. You can't punish the game for making you use your own logic.

It won't provide solid evidence. It won't give people definite answers. But what it will do is allow for debate and opinion, and perhaps entirely new theories on what does exist rather than dismissal of it as the bastardised representation of the market's wishes that every game company must produce at least one of.

It is canon, but it has a different approach to how lore is presented, which is often dismissed as 'wtf there is no lore in da game OMG!!!!!!111~~' by people who expect it to be thrown at them like an infodump in a fantasy novel.

I'm not sure what made you think the Ayleids are mythical, since we explore their ruins in "Oblivion". I agree that "Oblivion" homogenized the races a little too much. The Dunmer skin color isn't right -- blue instead of ash-colored, and their eyes are light red instead of crimson (and they should possibly be solid crimson, filling the whole eye socket). I don't like what "Oblivion" did with the Argonians, either -- they're uglier now and too human in their posture and limbs. The Bosmers' eyes should also probably be solid color too. You're right that the plane of Oblivion is supposed to be more varied; it should be different for each Daedra Prince. Sheogorath is not dead so much as replaced -- the role has been filled by another actor. To sum up, I'd have to agree that "Oblivion" was a step down from MW in depth of lore, though I did enjoy the game overall.

For a given definition of "Mannimarco." Nobody really knows what happened to him at the end of Daggerfall.


Of course not. Just because its not in Oblivion, the game, doesn't mean it couldn't be regarded as not existing at all. Given the small size of Oblivion's implementation, there's likely a LOT that would be in a "tabletop RPG" implementation of Cyrodil, and a "video game" implementation. (An equivalent question is: where are all the kids?)

What's with all the interest in Sutch, these days, anyway? I do seem to remember a "Fort Sutch" in Oblivion.



Beats me. I've never been to England.

Quips aside, I do not believe the temperate environment is anti-lore. Certainly, the first edition of the PGE described Cyrodil as a tropical jungle place, but the first edition was published a long time ago. More recent depictions (such as A Dance In Fire, a Morrowind book) describes a considerably more temperate environment. Climate change does, in fact, happen.



What do you mean? All prior sources indicate their historical existence, and Oblivion contains both physical evidence of their past civilization (Ayleid ruins), as well as a few individuals who claim descent from the Ayleids (Umbacano and Mankar Cameron). So where'd you get the idea that they would be a myth?




Personally, I interpret the part of the Imperial City depicted as merely a scaled down version of the innermost part of the city, a bit how the city depicted in Tribunal was not meant to be considered to be all of Mournhold, but rather the central district of Almalexia. And yes, I would expect the inner city to be considerably less culturally diverse than the outer city, let alone the foulburg.



Oblivion wasn't "presented" at all in the other games. We got snippets of information about tiny portions of Oblivion from a few highly uninformed travelers... that was it. Haskill expresses http://www.imperial-library.info/interviews/si_interview.shtml for the presumption that this tiny bit of information encompasses the whole, and rightfully so. Presuming that the portion depicted in Oblivion represents a departure from the lore is a bit like being a non-American complaining that a particular movie depicts America in a fashion other than just Manhattan.

Also, no quoting Todd on this one. A dev quote giving a vague anology for folks with no prior exposure to the series is NOT the same thing as "lore."



Sheogorath is dead. Long live Sheogorath.

I'm not expecting a lore dump, but if you didn't read any books in Morrowind you could see the influence of the Dunmer, Imperial, and Nordic cultures on the environment. I was probably too vague on the Ayleids - I meant mythical as in the myth that they still existed (since you traverse all of Cyrodiil and don't run into a single one, I'm assuming the Oblivion canon says they're extinct). Environment: In the game, I did get quite an English vibe of the "romanticized" fantasy England type. I thought Cyrodiil was supposed to be tropical and somewhat Mediterranean.

I'm not looking to discredit something that I don't like, I'm looking to get information on what the current situation is regardless of my feelings for it. Look at Arena and Morrowind. Obviously there are not as many cities in the latter, and some have changed (Ebonheart for example), however we can assume the scale is more correct in Arena. Of course it's hard when talking about Arena because that game didn't really provide any lore. Take Daggerfall - we know that the cities there are not all the same despite how the game portrayed them as. And in Redguard and Daggerfall, Argonians are portrayed as giant crocodiles, but we know they really do not look like that. In Morrowind, we find out that the Khajiit have many different breeds, and the ones in Morrowind are the ones that are closest to the region and most suited for slave labor. In Oblivion, only one type of Khajiit is shown, and it is the only kind that exists in Cyrodiil, despite it being the capital of the empire which would naturally have many different kinds. This Khajiit looks more like a guy in a cat costume than a real creature (the other Khajiits tended to be more human like in Arena/Daggerfall or more catlike like in Redguard/Morrowind).

"You can't punish the game for making you use your own logic."
I really did not get that impression while playing Oblivion.

"Oblivion wasn't "presented" at all in the other games."
Redguard had you travel to Clavicus Vile's realm. Battlespire was set in Oblivion. Daggerfall's Daedric backgrounds portrayed the cosmos. You get the Crescent from there in Morrowind (in that game though it just looks like a daedric ruin). Then there's all the books...
It's nice to hear someone say that the Todd quote about it being hell was just for marketing purposes. That's the kind of stuff I'm talking about. What is considered lore around here and what is considered engine limitations, appealing to the mass market, etc. I had my own ideas about this stuff but once Fallout 3 started including every crazy idea plus the kitchen sink I started to wonder.

I can see where you're coming from, but as a British historian, of sorts, I have to disagree. The armour, architecture, flora, and political systems of Cyrodiil are nothing like the armour, architecture, flora, and political systems of the feudal, medieval, pre-Union England you are thinking of. Cyrodiil is a much more closer depiction of medieval France, although it is not based on any one country or nation in any one particular period, so even then it's not easy to defend that comparison.



In Morrowind, only one type of Khajiit is shown. And Oblivion uses the same explanation for this that Morrowind does.



It doesn't make it obvious. But, again, look at the example of the Renrijra Krin. They aren't a faction in game...but do the houses in Border Watch look like they were occupied without fighting? Where does that skooma come from? How is it sold? How does what the count apparently says about Leyawiin in politics relate to the insurgency?

The information is there, it just doesn't say that it is to do with the Renrijra Krin - other things do. So you don't take it as lore about the Renrijra Krin, but just something an NPC says.

In Supreme Commander there's a weapon called the Oblivion Cannon.

Yeah, I know, I'm not helping.

If you don't want it to be cannon, it doesn't have to be cannon to you.

Look just beacuse you don't like it doesn't make it invalid. Many people were angry at how Morrowind and Redguard changed lore, but we all have to deal with it.

And as for Sheogorath being "dead" that's really not true. Either the COC went insane, and nothing actually happened or he'll just move into the role. The gods are just avatars, Shegorath will always be the same no matter who is playing the role.

The King of Worms was killed, the God of Worms was not. At the end of Daggerfall, Mannimarco both became a God and stayed a mer (thank the Warp in the West). The God of Worms is -- as we know from Oblivion -- a moon whose light shines at certain points and aids in creating Black Soul Gems, this is Mannimarco in his divine form. It is highly likely that the mer you killed is Mannimarco, the King of Worms. However, there is the tiniest, slightest possibility it was an impostor, but almost all the evidence points to it being the true King of Worms. Disappointing, isn't it? He looked so cool in Daggerfall, now look at 'im.

What confuses me on this matter is that even his mortal form during Daggerfall (before his transcendence to Godhood) was considerably more powerful [looking] than that puny little Altmer we encounter in Oblivion. Was it an unequal exchange of power during the Warp in the West, the God of Worms taking the majority of his mortal power with him, leaving his mortal counterpart a shell of what he once was?

Lets see:

• The http://www.imperial-library.info/obbooks/necromancers_moon.shtml prophesies the return of The God of Worms. But the quest is called Confront the King and Manimacro is consistently called the King of Worms. Then again in http://www.imperial-library.info/mwbooks/arkay_enemy.shtml Mannimacro notes that he became a god but still signed as KW, King of Worms.

• The Warp in the West is brought about by the presence of several Numidia. The Numidium, also know as the Brass God, as all gods has the ability to control the order of events in time. They could however not avoid each other as http://www.imperial-library.info/obbooks/warp_west.shtml describes a three way clash between Daggerfall, Wayrest and Orsinium. Presumably there was another clash between Cyrodiil and Sentinal. So what ever influence the Numidia have over the world, they don't have it over each other. So they don't have it over the God of Worms. This should exclude him from duplication.

• In game, Manimacro is a one trick-pony and a push over. Not very Divine, but so were Mehrunes Dagon, Yigallag, Umaril, Camoran, Dagoth Ur and Vivec.

With #1 inconclusive, with #2 against but sketchy and #3 almost as solid evidence (sic), I don't think there is a mortal Mannimacro and that the one encountered in Oblivion was indeed the God.

I just want to add that Oblivion wasn't presented as "hell" in the game. What you saw in the game was Dagon's realm. Being the prince of destruction...I'd assume the place would look like...destruction. Sure, I have other ideas I could represent that idea, but thats how they went for it: volcanoes, fire, ect. Its the most obvious choice. I'd certainly be bothered if the realm of destruction was all about rabbits, rainbows and flowers. That'd be anti-lore.

You do enter another Daedra's realm in the game, and it is depicted as the same as Dagon's realm...yet I dont consider that a way to assume Oblivion is a fiery pit. Sometimes Bethesda is lazy: they were in Morrowind, they were also in Oblivion. They just REUSE things too much: whenever you got transported to some mysterious place in Morrowind, the place would either look like a daedra temple, or a dwemer ruin. Its like they didnt take the time to actually make something special, different from everythigng else in the game.

They did the same in Oblivion with that daedra quest, cant remember the name. Still, the devs are to blame for that, and has nothing to do with lore. Somebody already expressed how, OBVIOUSLY, its a game, and no matter how extensive lore is, sometimes not everything can fit inside a game.

Gods have the ability to create Mundane avatars of themselves (a la Talos as Wulf). I always just assuemd you killed his avatar, especially since the Necromancer's moon wasn't destroyed (and it was referred to as the God of Worms).

I'd say it has to do with the weakness of gamesas's boss battles in general. Yes, I am invoking gameplay in this case. Theoretically, he is so mad powerful he can transform anyone he comes across into a worm thrall, and his staff is definitely a part of his power (it would have been more challenging if there'd been some bodies in the room with you guys, and the AI was able to make him use that advantage). Thus, he was a pushover not because he was "weak", but because you had the MacGuffin in your posession: the giant black soul gem with Traven's soul in it.

I have to concur, he did seem like a mundane avatar. He was certainly weak enough to be one.

Indeed, if the game is made by the official creators who hold the license, everything presented in it is canon unless said otherwise (i.e., if it is retconned in future games, or if the creators confirm that it is wrong officially in statements outside of game material.) Although, a lot of the things aren't even necessarily breaking of lore, just because Mannimarco was alive before doesn't mean he has to be for the rest of the series, and Oblivion doesn't all look like a Tamrielic hell, as is shown by the fact that Shivering Isles, the realm of Sheogorath, looks nothing like the theme park version of hell, it's just the part you visit in the original game, presumably the Deadlands, that now looks like it, and Mehrunes Dagon can have it look however he wants. In the end, canon is NOT determined by the fans, some fans, however, seem to think otherwise, and believe that their favorite theories MUST be true, and anything they don't like about their favorite series obviously didn't happen, the most obnoxious will even go as far as to act like the creators are wrong if they tell them that what they say isn't true. They may even act like they know more about the lore than everyone else, including the people who wrote it, truly, they are a troublesome lot.



Unless of course the rabbits were killer rabbits that ripped people apart! And the flowers were either dead or carnivorous plants! And the rainbows... I'm not sure how you could get those to invoke destruction.



It's not just Bethesda, lots of companies like to reuse things as much in games, I suppose it's understandable, because each object in the game takes time to create, and the employees who make it must be paid for their work, so in order to reduce the cost of game design, it's only natural for developers to reuse whatever resources they can as much as possible, generally saving unique resources for particularly important. So an RPG, for example, might have a few generic tilesets for dungeons, but if we're lucky, ones of particular importance, such as the place where you must confront the final boss, or one that marks a particularly important point in the story, might use an entirely unique tileset.



I don't think you can stop a cannon from being a cannon just because you don't want it to be, it still shoots and is just as lethal.

Sorry, just teasing you.



But as drastic as a climate change as we see in Oblivion in comparison to the old Pocket Guide seems unlikely to happen from natural causes in the timespan between the two, and I doubt it would eliminate all traces that the climate was ever anything but what we see now. Of course, in Tamriel, Bethesda can use "A Wizard Did It" type explanations to explain these things, having actual wizards, as well as crazy things like Dragon Breaks, and when all else fails, Bethesda can say "A God Did It", but that's all a pretty half-hearted handwave for what's obviously done to make the game more generic.



In Mourhold, though, we were stuck inside that part of the city, so we couldn't see the rest of the city, in Oblivion, however, one could explore everything you'll see on the map, you could step outside, and see that all there was to the city was what you could explore, most likely, it's meant to be the ENTIRE city, a highly scaled down version of it, of course, but still the entire city.

It's also worth noting that, if you go to even parts of the Cyrodiil that are supposed to have a unique culture, like say, Bruma or Cheydinhall, while the architecture may reflect the location's culture (both cities presumably show Nord and Dunmer influences in their architecture, respectively, Cheydinhall doesn't look much like any Dunmer town I've ever seen, but since we've never been able to explore the mainland of Morrowind other than part of Almelexia and Sotha Sil's Clockwork City, it may be that some parts of the mainland do have architecture similar to Cheydinhal.) and character's will often reference the different customs, but the behavior and dialog of the character's doesn't usually differ much from what you'd see anywhere else. So the fact that the Imperial City doesn't look like much of a melting put really doesn't seem to tell us much.

Its pretty much an oxymoron that undeath the moon would be killed just because the living god is killed, so I see the avatar excuse as unnecessary. All gods need to give of their divinity anyway, and when the revenent moon blocked Arkay, or essentially stole its place for a while, it had to do the same. Maybe I'm reading too much into it...

Edit: Also, cannon is for discussion's sake. Alone, the world is yours to shape as you see fit, and nobody around you is to say otherwise. Some cannon is better at adapting to the personal tastes of developers than others. Some of it is lies from a previous era, and can only be viewed as fictional stories. Bottom line: forum its concession, you its imagination.

Well, ultimately, my point this that this isn't a change that was introduced by the dastardly and evil developers of Oblivion. It was first established in Morrowind by a book writer (whoever it was that happened to write A Dance in Fire). And rapid climate change can occur. Ever heard of the Little Ice Age? The growth of the taiga into central Europe brought winter wolves with it, and the growth of alpine glaciers crushed entire village. The Greenland Vikings were killed or driven out completely. Portugal saw regular snowstorms. This all occurred over the course of less than a thousand years.



True, which means my interpretation wasn't necessarily intended by the developers in this case. It's more of a way I attempt to salvage the Imperial City as depicted in the game as a source of information about The Imperial City as it would exist in a more complete fictional setting.

That was Ted Peterson as far as I know.

Easy. The rainbows can do http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bwYzyRfNFn0.

MK has said before that he doesn't like the idea of mere climate change being the force behind changes in the land, rather than Heroes are the ones who shape it.

That's from the "If something tragic must happen, it should at least be memorable" school of thought.



I've been throwing that around for a bit but it leaves allot to be desired. Logically speaking it works, but Manimacro doesn't act the part. In fact he doesn't act much at all. So we're at usual explanation again.

MK can bite my shiny metal...

Indeed, what do you mean there are no rainforest in Cyrodiil?

Just yesterday when I went to buy rice at the stalls on the Pepper Moth Brige. Underneath a logging team passed on their barge, pulling a solid hard-wood tree trunk behind them to the mills. I've always been amazed by the inefficiency of this process, but people argue that this is the only way for the mostly illiterate loggers to get the fair share for the work. I'd have stayed to watch a little bit longer but the sudden flash rain had me running for a more solid cover then the flimsy sun roofs of the market stalls.

Well, going against "Boring And Therefore Wrong" means we get "Boring And Therefore Right" instead, which is just boring.