Tip-toeing through the minefield....

First I mean no disrespect and only thanks to all the great modders or anyone who has assisted making my hobby (addicition) such an fantastic experience. I've been playing modded TES games (almost exclusively) since summer of '03, I check this board and the major release sites almost daily.

The biggest problem I see right now is a lack of any mod-lists to point to as newcomer's attempt to wade into the crazy morass of OB mods. Specifically I could point to Morrowind Mythic Mods, which has been updated more frequently then anything for OB of late. Yes, Tomlong's site is very helpful, but there are no real mod-lists to be found, Yes BG's previously posted list is also great, but a little out of date, http://www.somethingfornobody.com/2011/oblivion-modding-guide/ is a great more up-to date list, but smallish. When I started with MW I constantly checked Telesporo's and Empirical Morrowind's exhaustive lists. For OB, I still see Dev's great (for the time), but seriously out-of-date sites. I'm running an incredible looking install right now yet I'm not running anything listed on TOTO anymore. Seriously, in Dev's absence, there has been a dearth of mod information round here. Its like everything stopped in '09, but there have been major advancement's since.

I feel like I should be offering up something here....but I don't have the time or resources, not many other's do either I think. Maybe Nexus Mod Manager might help...

Now about compliation's - I'm no fan, and I don't even like alot of Kingpix's choices for MW. But he opened that Pandora's Box and that has to be dealt with better than the harsh responses here. Since his compliation has been so well received it is no surprise that it is spilling over, it may take a few more year's but it will come, its the way of things.

About overhauls. I gotta side with Psymon. I've ran at least two FCOM installs before, but even with that experience I tried setting up another one 2 month's ago and was left scratching my head as to how to set it up with SWG's new Fran's package. Or what to run with it, Or which choices (Dev's list isn't up to date). Ended up bagging it. Set up a MMM + Oblivion Unleveled install instead. But newbies are always pointed to FCOM when they ask what to install and OOO's packaging of Living Economy and older versions of Harvest is way out of date and adds to the confusion.

Look, the caretakers are being a little too militant these days, and I say this as someone who poured over every one of Soto's and Dev's posts. Psymon posted Newcomer's semi-flabergasted respone at how nothing had been done to Fran's since his departure and I think Soto's and Mart's and Dev's responses would be the same. The deities aren't coming back, but they gave us gifts to use. I understand why the "the alpha team" wants everything perfect before release, but we are way past the due date. There are plenty of people with experience waiting on a "final" FCOM, open up a beta, we can help, instead you're locking everything up like the church where only the high priests have access to the scriptures. Nowhere on the FCOM thread is there even list of what up to date mods should be run with FCOM, as subjective as that may be.

So the unwashed masses ask for compliations....

Its late, I'm out

e

I agree with this!

Well I think bg addressed this above in that with Oblivion there is simply more choice.

I can think of 3 variations on a darker dungeons mod for instance.

There have been some great themed mod lists - unfortunately the last great http://www.gamesas.com/index.php?/topic/1010109-list-list-of-mod-lists/ was invalidated by the forum update that occured within this last year so most of the threads it points on these forums have what appear to be dead links - the threads may be there - it is just the links don't work anymore - if you search out the name of the authors or the list you may find them. It was a gold mine for about 6 months.

I still think the http://www.gamesas.com/index.php?/topic/820948-scaling-overhaul-comparison/ is a great starting point - but it is missing newer overhauls.
http://www.gamesas.com/index.php?/topic/814477-magic-overhaul-comparison/ is another - again missing newer magic mods.
bg also linked to his http://theelderscrolls.info/?go=4zbasemodlistev above - though some I would not recommend.

Other threads that were cool to read have been:
http://www.gamesas.com/index.php?/topic/1053088-deltes-thread-of-immersion-mods/ - again subjective choices given and some outdated.
http://www.gamesas.com/index.php?/topic/1093197-running4covers-list-of-stealth-mods-2nd-thread/ - fairly up to date if you read the whole thread.

Probably the most up to date list and in line with some of what is on the TOTO is http://www.gamesas.com/index.php?/topic/960829-environment-mod-list/.

Taking on updating the list of lists would be a task. But, I could see making a recommended list that is filled with the mods by regulars here would be beneficial. Things like: AWLS, All Natural, TNO mods, and so on.

Unfortunately, as individual modders, we don't really have any other means to approach it. The system does not allow for it. All we as individuals can do is package things in a form that works and present it to the user. I know I don't excel at writing documentation, but I have never once had anyone tell me "this part is confusing" or "why is this this way" or offered an alternate means to explain something. So from where I sit, it just works.


Tomlong's package list is the end result. You're not supposed to be blindly trying to replicate it. She's just providing it as an example of how to better organize a collection you might build up. It may look intimidating with all those package there, but they all got installed one by one over time. Not all on the same day. Well, I hope it wasn't the same day. That's a lot of stuff.


Nobody is doing this. All of the mod installers have documentation. I'm not sure where the idea came from that we're just throwing people to the wolves. The only one who used to act that way was shunned, as Dragoonwraith alluded to.


No, it's more like "read up on what you're doing, don't jump in blind". You do need to be willing to spend some time on it. Exaggerating by claiming it's hundreds of hours is a bit much, yes?


Everything you just named off here are mass market products that are sold for profit. Mods are not. We don't have large support teams or dedicated QA groups. We don't have usability experts. Expecting the same level of support out of unpaid hobbyist products is silly. Most modders have day jobs already. Trust me, if we could make a living doing this things would be very very different.


The open cities variant within BC is a toggle setup so that you can turn the BC layouts into open city layouts. The included patch for Open Cities Reborn merely allows you to include the new buildings from BC in the OCR layouts. You cannot run both open variants at the same time without turning your cities into swiss cheese.


I'm not sure just how I got dragged into this, but my position on permissions has not changed and never will. Nor has my position on being able to adequately support my own work changed, and likely never will. To date, every single Oblivion compilation I've become aware of has been done entirely without author permission and the people putting it together have time and time again sent people to the individual authors for support issues. This becomes a massive time sink if it's not stopped dead. Nobody here wants to have support issues for 17 different versions of their work because 17 different compilation teams have no respect for authors' rights.

There's also the small matter of updates. Most compilations operate in fire-and-forget mode. If something is later found to be buggy and gets corrected, those package NEVER get updated.

It's not taboo just because it's me btw, it's taboo because it's wrong. I can't take action against violations of work which is not my own. That's not how copyright defense works. It only gets attention because I am still actively involved. What you're basically getting at here is the mentality many of us hate - that it's ok to take it because the poor sap isn't around to say no. There's no hypocrisy except from the ones who claim to be asking for permission but turn out to have fudged it.

You (as in "you ,modders community") Could support the compilations makers. just like open sources software authors support distributions makers. If I want port a GPL/BSD software package to say "max's new operating system" I dont need contact the author, I dont need to ask permission I just can take it and make it work for my OS, provided I dont violate the license terms . That is how open source works at all. If it wasnt for this approach it wouldnt move anywhere. If software authors were actively preventing creation of distributions with various restrictive legalese and hostility it would be still nowhere near usable state.




That is the point. That is a lot of stuff. Just to download the packages is many hours.





Not a slightest bit. How long you thing it would take to make tomlong mod list work (if you dont know the load order and compatibilities) . Stop for a moment and think. 1 hour? - you wont event finish reading mod descriptions in that time. 10 hours? - maybe barely enough to just download source packages. How long to read and understand what each everyone does? How long to fix the incompatibilities and load orders?- if you dont have that list provided how long do you think it will take?




Its like the arguments with open source software. Thankfully they moved long time ago past arguing about the fact that they need better packaging. Its still a quagmire but if you want comparision - think as mods as individual software, and compilations as distributions.





And here is a problem.... On one hand you declare that mod authors are helpless. But the approach which could work (e.g. compilations) is shunned and authors of such are chased away. Yes some compilations maybe are not to the standards you would like. Well.... its up to users to use them or not. And if you dont like supporting your mod as part of compilations -well no one forces you to. Yes compilations maybe are not in best shape right now. But maybe.. just maybe it is because significant of the modders community is actively hostile to anyone who tries to tackle that issue? Maybe because some members insist on explicit asking for permissions and "denied by default" instead of "allowed by default"?

I'd certainly pay money for OCR or OOO or even Wrye Bash. Of course, the problem with that is that itself is illegal!

A question that hasn't been asked is what makes this hobby enjoyable for modders and what encourages them to create.

I think mod compilations would draw away a lot of users, and individual modders would miss out feedback, encouragement and interactions with users which may hurt their motivation to create more stuff in the future.

I spent 60-70 hours to get my Oblivion going. Not to mention the time lurking in this forum while searching for instruction on how mods worked while still not interested in installing Fcom.

I think it's important to understand how many PC gamers don't add mods to their games. Personally I have a lot of friends who don't use them because they think their complex or think hackers ruin the game. Now part of that is lack of education or equating mods with hacks. Most of that equality comes from some online experience. Putting that aside I think the system we have here is difficult for anybody new that's not of a technical nature. What I mean is not necessarily an actual complexity but its perceived complexity of a process of using mods. There's a certain level where people will either try something or not via time benefit anolysis. I think compilation are a big enticement with little perceived complexity. Therefore, they form a function to draw new people into the community. Eventually those "new" members will integrate just like Spiffyman. He now has to drive to go further and learn.

I'm not necessarily supporting compilations. But I wish to point out that they serve a function, not as an end-all solution, but a function that has limits. These limits once discovered by the user and provides drive because they've had experience with the results using mods.

I've got mixed feelings about compilations. The whole point of a compilation is to take the compiler's favorite mods, and make one big mod for the purpose of making it easy for a user to mod their game without the daunting task of learning about mod compatibility and reading the details of each mod.

Modders want gamers to use their mods. So typically, anything that makes the mod easier to use is a bonus for the modder. Modding isn't easy. It's a lot of work. We do it for free. And all we want in return are props. And the more props the better.

I sort-of cringe whenever I see the periodic post "Where do I find mods" or "What mods should I get?" Because the replies come fast and furious and are rife with terms and recommended tasks that to a newbie are legitimately overwhelming. OBMM, Wrye Bash, read this thread, read that thread, OBGE, OBSE, check out OOO or FCOM, or maybe TIE, check out QTP if your rig can handle it! What the heck does all that mean? Poor newbie asked a simple question and we gave them ten hours of research and reading material to do.

But what if they could go to one place, download a giant mod built from some of the best mods around, and just plug and play? That's the promise of a compilation.

But that promise is false. It ain't gonna work and never will, because of the hugeness and energy of the Oblivion modding community. In the amount of time you could gather a compilation of a dozen quality mods or so and have it ready to download, at least one of those mods is going to be updated because of a bug report, or made obsolete by a better mod. Or maybe a new mod shows up that is so good, it should go into the compilation too. Not to mention the incompatibility that will likely exist within the compilation itself between its components because the compiler didn't resolve everything.

The result is that using a compilation isn't going to be much easier than using a bunch of individual mods, because the compiler will constantly be releasing updates and patches and new versions. But can they truly be expected to constantly re-compile mods (especially big ones) and re-release them? Heck no, that's too much work, and would defeat the whole purpose of making it simple. They go get the update of a component mod, but uh-oh now it conflicts with another component mod, so should they just use the old version of the component, but it has a bug that was resolved in the update, should they try to change it themselves or ask the author for help?

And when the users start going to the individual modders for bug reports or questions because the compiler can't possibly respond to everything, then those mod authors can't possibly help them because their work was taken and modified and they have no idea of knowing what the issue is. And the result of that is that the individual mod's reputation is tarnished for no fault of the author.

The promise of compilations is user-friendliness, based in good intentions. But what's delivered instead are bugs and incompatibilities that are a lot harder to resolve than individual mods, modders' work getting a bad rep for bad reason, and a LOT of confused and frustrated users who wanted something easy but got something really big and confusing, doesn't quite work right and they have no idea how to fix it.

Facts:

Mod authors, who did all the work, own all the rights to a mod. It is not community property. This is not a legal argument, but is based on the same philosophical arguments that actual, legal copyrights are based: there is nothing so intrinsically yours as that which you have made yourself.

One of these rights is determining how and when the mod is distributed. Sole rights to these decisions rest with the author him or herself. No one (no one) can make these decisions for them without their express permission. To do so is the height of disrespect; it is to attempt to strip modders of their rights to what is intrinsically theirs.

Compilations depend on being able to distribute the work of others. This must involve getting permission from every author in question. To do otherwise is to strip them of their rights. Assuming you should be able to is the height of disrespect and ingratitude.

There are myriad very good reasons why most authors will not grant this permission. But it does not matter why. It is their right to do so, and you are not entitled to question it. It is their work. If how they want to distribute their work is unacceptable to you, do not use it. But you are entitled to nothing else.

What it comes down to is that some users don't seem to grasp the concept of a gift. All mods are gift. They are given exactly how and when the modder chooses to give them. You have no part in the process, nor do you have any say in the decisions. Mods are the result of thousands of hours of work, and when you download one, you are accepting a gift of thousands of hours of someone's free time. You are entitled to nothing but to not download it. You are not entitled to question it, to demand more of the modder, or to expect the modder to bend over backwards to make it work. Because you're not paying them. You are not a customer. You are receiving a gift.

And if you expect to be able to demand more gifts, then you are no longer merely a gift-receiver, you're a parasite.


What we're talking about is the difference between suggesting, and demanding. Mod users, all too often, seem to think they have a right to demand things like compatibility, easy installation, not having to read documentation, etc, and they don't. Suggestions for making things better are welcome. Demands that I do somethign a certain way and telling me I'm a badwrongmodder if I don't are not. This is especially prevalent in mod compilation threads. Users talk about how difficult it is to install a lot of mods, about how much easier it would make things, etc etc., all on the basis that somehow, they're entitled to having it be that easy.

You seem to care little or not at all for how that ease for you is a result of extra work for modders. You seem to think that everything should be handed to you on a silver platter, and if it isn't, all the thousand of hours that a modder has put into a mod are now not good enough — and that makes me wish I had some sort of system whereby I could make my mod available to download to everyone in the world but you.

There is a major difference in saying something is useful than approving it, and at no time did I say I approved of it's FCOM content. Please read my previous comments.
And most certainly not to the point where it is equal to, better or a replacement for the information we supply for installation and troubleshooting purposes.
That info has, as I've previously stated, been compiled from our documentation.
What on earth can it supply that hasn't been copied from us?

No, it's not a "self install", but this link is a big help.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XneMbc8nO4Q

:deal:

You got dragged into this because you're a very well respected and active member of the modding community. My post was directed at the modding community as a whole, not anyone in particular. Apologies if it came off as directed at you, it was not my intention.

My point is that when Harvest[Flora], AWLS, Better nights sky, godrays, and several others (don't quote me on these mods, I'm not entirely sure which ones are integrated) is thrown into OWCND, everyone welcomes it with open arms. However, if I even hinted about building a mod on top of Fran's 4.5, which Francesco essentially released to the public a few months ago, I've somehow committed a cardinal sin. This is the hypocrisy I'm talking about.

To take another example, I've voiced many times before that it would be a good idea to have a fully integrated FCOM, based on the current release of FCOM. Because like it or not, FCOM is a [censored] to install. If I was to dismantle and repackage all the ESPs and ESMs into one, and take responsibility for keeping the package up-to-date and maintaining compatibility (with a little guidance and collaboration from Team Alpha), it'd do very well for roughly everything. However, the general consensus is along the lines of "don't even think about this at home, let alone bringing up the idea in public". Is MMM/OOO/FCOM in a final release? No. Are the updates spread so far apart that it would warrant some kind compilation for simplicity's sake? Hell Effin Yes! The fact that this kind of thing is off limits, no matter how well the concept is executed, is discouraging.

Just a point to make. If Modder A grants permission for Mod A to be re-released or re-packaged, but Modder B does not grant permission for Mod B to be re-released or re-packaged, then there is no hypocrisy here on the part of Modder B. There is only a difference in their preference for the use of their respective mods. The breach in etiquette lies not in re-releasing or re-packaging a mod. The breach in etiquette lies in doing it without permission.

That's not hypocrisy. That's authors of one set of mods granting permission to someone to use them and authors of another set NOT granting it. Contrary to popular belief, we are not of one collective modding hive mind. We are individuals with unique thought processes. I know, sometimes we seem like robots capable of miracles, but we're just people with differing opinions on the subject.

This is not even a remotely true statement, to the best of my knowledge. If you can back it up, then you would be right, but I have heard of no such public release.

Young person here. I've worked out that I spend roughly 20-30 hours a week on average doing something related to Oblivion modding, and have done so for at least the past five years, so that's something like 5000 hours. A paltry amount in comparison to some of the big names that have already posted, and those that have not, but still a far cry from lacking sticking power IMHO.

As for making things easier, I've spearheaded the development of BOSS for a year now, though the credit for the usefulness of the program actually lies with those who keep the masterlists updated. I can count the number of times anyone has said anything negative about BOSS since its inception on one hand, and I have seen thousands of people thanking the team for it. It has made using mods so much easier. There was a time when merely setting your load order up took hours in itself, where now it takes a few minutes at most. Not to mention the Bash Tag info and other helpful messages it provides.

I'm even working on an API for BOSS so that Wrye Bash and the Nexus Mod Manager can use its features without the user having to download BOSS themselves. I'm writing hundreds of lines of totally new code for this sole purpose of making users lives easier. Do not accuse me of not making the effort.

When mod users complain about how much time it takes to do so, I roll my eyes. The tens of hours it takes you is nothing compared to the hundreds and thousands of hours that went into making the mods and utilities that you use. Modders are accused of being elitist: I accuse some mod users (a very tiny minority) of lacking humility. We all stand upon the shoulders of giants, modders and users alike, but it seems that users are more prone to displaying their ignorance of that. I'm guilty of an inflated ego myself, but I do try to keep popping it every now and again.

In the end, I can only quote part of a post I made on the Nexus forums:



If you don't think that using mods is worth the time and effort investment required, then don't use mods. It's that simple.

Well he didn't release it to the world exactly. Follow the links in http://www.gamesas.com/index.php?/topic/1279341-oblivion-equivalent-of-morrowind-overhaul/page__view__findpost__p__19370238 ... he basically gave permission to repackage and update as needed.

I'm not a license jockey, but it would seem that the original Frans is still up for grabs in the manner that mike is referring to. I recently PMd Francesco asking for clarification. Not holding my breath though.

And Mike12982-
As I understand it OWC ND has received permission for all the mods included. That is according to NNW anyway.

I think that clarifying the difference between an overhaul and compilation would prevent this kind of back and forth. OWC ND is not a compilation - it is an overhaul. All the parts are integrated - not just collected.

I think the Oblivion community should really take a look at the Morrowind Overhaul project. In the upcoming version, it has an auto-update feature for the mods that are included (each with permission from the original authors). It has a fairly easy install gui that allows you to make choices for the install for the mods that give choices.

I don't think that will ever come to fruition for Oblivion, but it's a nice example of how to make a compilation the right way.

Also R6m9H: Thanks for that link. Seeing someone else do it should help me figure out what I've been doing wrong all this time.

It can provide a better layout and presentation.
It can provide missing bits of information.
it can provide install instructions that relate to both OBMM and BAIN (and manual) and how to use those tools.
It can provide an alternative and therefor might help people clarify a set of instructions by seeing it said/written differently.
It could provide choice.

In the interest of accuracy: it's illegal to charge money for the distribution of a mod. It's not illegal to give donations to a mod author, or even to hire someone to make a mod to your specifications (though once made, that mod must also be distributed freely).

And the missing information is what exactly?


I take real exception to your suggestion, especially when you consider I can point to the fact the FCOM part of the said guide was largely rewritten and corrected by an FCOM Team member.

Is there anything else that you would like to know pertaining to that particular FCOM install guide? I ask because I think I'm probably more familair with it than you may be.
I think for very obvious reasons therefor, no, we wont be adding a link to it on the Official thread or advise it as alternative over official documentation.

I think you failed to grasp the point I was trying to convey here.

"I think most young people nowadays demand instant gratification.
Push a button here... Push a button there.
I don't care HOW it works, I just want the results."

It's a general statement regarding the current state of affairs.
It is NOT MY outlook on mods or the modding community.

One needs to READ CAREFULLY before giving rebuttals :nono:

Thats is rather overblown. Author(s) of compilations choose stable version of mods, the setting they like and do the packaging, debugging and testing. Whether the sub component mods are being updated is rather irrellevant. Just like with this distributions primary goal is stability and easy of use. "Up to dateness" is not . There are many mods which were not updated in long time and many which were but newer version are not more stable. Point is if there is compilation of 1000 mods which is stable and easy to install I will ignore that some mods there are not the latest and greatest versions and it maybe missing something new.

One individual mod is a small piece of the whole puzzles. Its not about one particular mod. Its about how to make the whole aggregation of them work

The hostility towards compilation is rather appaling - links to them get censored and people are shouted down.




As far as I understand there are specific restriction by bethesda on mod distribution etc. But frankly I personally not a fan of copyrights or any legalese around it . You put something for public. Regardless whether you do it for free or anything the fact is that this is out of the bag now. People can do things with it you may not like but its out of your control now. You may rage, cry ,threaten or pray - it wont change what public can do with it .The very moment that you made it available you already stripped yourself of ability to control it.

That is simply fact. Now you may argue that from moral, legal and other standpoints it is not what you want or expected. Well.... - this is how world works. Arguing would change nothing , the part you can control is whether its public or not. What public does with it you can not. You want total control? - dont release it . If you release it? -dont rage when somebody does something with it without your permission