Good point... if you want more of a challenge in the Oblivion realms you could totally get rid of stunted scamps, clannfear runts, and young daedroths, so that the ratio of powerful beasts is much higher.

From what I have noticed there are enough mods that use OBSE that most people are already using it so it really wouldn't be an issue and anyways there isn't a down side to using OBSE except that people would have to download and install it along with your mod. There are many things in OBSE (besides what five said) that could help with your mod.

patch to upgrade to 0.93c uploaded...

Changes from 0.93b to 0.93c:
- Update: made various misc. quests static, including a few that a level 1 player should be able to do now (they aren't EASY mind you - just not impossible for a level 1 player):
Unfriendly Competition
An Unexpected Voyage
The Killing Field
The Ghost Ship of Anvil
The Unfortunate Shopkeeper
The Desolate Mine
- Update: replaced the spectral sailors in the Serpent's Wake with actual spectral sailors, instead of wraiths
- Update: actually integrated the adamantium armor into the leveled lists (apparently I had forgotten previously)
- Update: actually integrated the marauder armor styles (another thing I had apparently forgotten previously)
- Update: tweaked leveled lists a bit for the creature spawn generator script, so there's a little less wasp spiders & wasps now
- Update: made sure all mithril & ayleid weapons are immune to normal weapon resistance
- Update: made mithril, silver, ayleid, and daedric bows NOT immune to normal weapon resistance. Just because you fire an arrow from one of these bows does not mean the arrow will harm an enemy who is immune to normal weapons. The actual arrow has to be silver, mithril, daedric, or ayleid now, unless the bow is enchanted.
- Update: made all enchanted bows immune to normal weapons resistance so the arrows they fire will do both physical and magic damage
- Update: made night eye a part of the ethereal ability set, because it makes sense for ghosts/spirits to have no trouble seeing in the dark (good luck hiding from them now!)


I am strongly considering implementing some small amounts of OBSE functionality, but I don't want Oblivion Intensity to require OBSE. I think I'll do it like the UOP does where IF you have OBSE, there will be some improvements (like lack of falling creatuire spawns and cleaner saved games), but if you don't, then it will still play.

I am absolutely diggin' this mod! Keep up the good work!

P.S. I am all for OBSE functionality. Always have it installed and never had a problem with it.

Nobody really has problems with OBSE itself and any problems people have are actually something else like conflicting mods, an over aggressive anti-virus, ect.

I think OBSE is an issue with Direct2Drive users, as it requires an encrypted exe file or some such. But htose users are a heavy minority i would think. Most have steam or a retail DVD.

Go for OBSE my friend. Everyone who wants a decently modded game uses it.

Yea I'll just go the route of making it optional though. I'm probably only going to use it for the dynamic spawns, so if you have OBSE, then they'll always spawn level with the terrain, and if not, then they'll still work but you might see them falling from the sky sometimes.

This week is swamp hag and dremora week! After this I'm not going to want to look at another dremora or ugly old lady for a long time.

Cryonaut, I wanted to give you a heads' up that there will be an update of WEPON coming in the next month or so...the mod's thread on TESNexus includes the spoilers on what's new for version 2

So after nearly a year of working on my SDR mod (still not quite done), I've been slowly poking around and assembling my next Oblivion run through mod list. OI looks very interesting. From the list of mods, it looks like it should be compatible with SDR (assuming SDR is loaded after it). But one concern I have is that I really want to use Duke Patrick's melee and archery mods. My gut is telling me their might be a compatibility problem, (mainly with WEPON, but possibly other things), but there is a patch that resets all weapons back to vanilla stats that might work. So I am curious on your thoughts of using the DP mods with it.

Finally getting back to installing a modded Oblivion and looking at this mod.

And I too am wondering about compatibility with Duke Patrick mods. Since Duke's mods use scripts to set various weapn stats and aspects of the damage forumula it is not like you can load them both into edit and see.

So when this mod readme states:This isn't exactly revelatory. Looking further I see that you say that:
Weapon Expansion Pack for Oblivion Nthusiasts (WEPON) – MOBs version is included. Does this mean that the new weapons and armors are also balanced toward MOBS?

This decreases Duke compatibility and compatibility with other mods that add weapons/armor ... like http://tes.nexusmods.com/downloads/file.php?id=27632.

Then I look at the compatibility section and I see every known overhaul ... except WAC. First does this mean even a bashed patch cannot resolve issues with mods like Frans or TIE? Second are you aware that only one optional esp is what makes WAC incompatible with other overhauls and then ONLY if a bashed patch is not used.

In fact I don't see anything about the use of a bashed patch in the readme.

[edit] I can't seem to open the 093c package - says invalid. ... well it worked when downloaded on IE.

For me, based on description, if I could get TIE + OI + Duke Patrick + my own SDR, I would be a very happy person. I bet it's doable. I'll look into it when I have time (whenever that is).

Based on what I've read on SDR I see no reason why it wouldn't get along with OI, and I am looking forward to using it along with OI eventually whenever I do get to the point where I am ready to start a full new game myself.
I would very much like to use Duke Patrick's mods as well, as they seem awesome, but I have not had the time to read their documentation yet. I was not aware of there being a compatibility problem with MOBs. I will have to look into this. That is very disappointing to find out about. I really like MOBs because the stats just seem to make so much more sense than the vanilla weapon stats.


MOBs doesn't touch armor stats, but yes, all weapons in OI are balanced towards MOBs as much as I have been able to ensure up to this point. There may still be some that aren't tweaked to perfection, but there shouldn't be any glaringly different ones. I'm very sorry to hear about that decreasing compatibility, but when I first started working on OI either Duke Patrick's mods weren't announced yet or I was not aware of them yet, so all I knew was I wanted the weapons stats to be as realstic and balanced as possible, so MOBs was definitely the way to go to ensure that.
John's Leveled List Overhaul seems like a fine mod, but states right in the description that's it's not compatible with other mods that change leveled lists, and my readme states that OI isn't compatible with other mods that change leveled lists. Looks like the two just aren't meant to run together.


I don't use WryeBash. It's like algebra to me. My brain just shuts off when I try to learn it.
I have no desire to achieve compatibility with other overhauls. Sorry of that makes me sound like a jerk. The whole reason I made OI was because I didn't like any of the other overhauls, and I was sick of the overly complicated convoluted processes people had to go through to try to get their custom combinations of overhauls to work. OI is meant to be my own custom overhaul to use instead of any others, so I can have one single simple mod that takes care of all my overhaul needs. It's meant to be the only overhaul active. I will not support trying to smash it together with other overhauls. I can't say people aren't allowed to try if they really want to, but I won't endorse it.

Ok well let me advocate for a few points if I may.

First though right up front these are just suggestions and I'm in no way attempting to tell you what to do with your mod. I am a mod user first and foremost and I tend to advocate most for what mod users need, or at least could use more of.

Oblivion modding saw a lot of advances in what folks were able to do with mods for these games. The two most innovative approaches are OBSE and Wrye Bash. OBSE for being able to do what wasn't available (and I have to admit other than saying it makes use of new commands via scripts not originally available I get lost). The other Wrye Bash for combining mods in ways that would previously break mods. Specifically the issue called the Rule of One (see the pinned thread http://www.gamesas.com/topic/775917-compatibility-and-you/). As I understand the issue each thing in a mod is a FormID and that means that if one referenced FormID then references others the referenced others can be blocked if that first FormID is blocked. So when two mods alter a leveled list the list for the later loading mod will win and the earlier loading mod will have the content of the list blocked. The fundamental function of Wrye Bash is to combine the leveled lists from two mods into one list or lists depending on what all is merged. A bashed patch can do much more than this but that is the main thing. I attempted to scribble a few thins http://www.gamesas.com/topic/1084204-bain-mod-installation-projects/page__view__findpost__p__15798020 to clarify this more.

So the function of the bashed patch had evolved with FCOM and as time went on people started to see that a bashed patch could be used to combine leveled lists from other overhauls as well. FCOM and OOO have some pretty detailed and unique leveled lists and as such patches are required, but other overhauls (Frans, TIE for instance) just have alterations to existing leveled lists and therefore only need a bashed patch to get 98% of the material to show up. This is easy to examine too albiet time consuimg - just bash two leveled list mods together then load them and the bashed patch into tes4edit and examine away (filtering can help too). Load order can fix issues as well.

Combining overhauls often results in sharp criticism from mod makers I notice. I can see their point of view ... an overhaul is a vision toward a more perfect game. All the included material is balanced just so and everything is integrated and by adding to with other visions it can disturb the balance and integration.

The problem is that not every overhaul is perfect or even that well put together. Certainly they can become out of date and parts can then become bothersome to deal with. Take for example OOO it has alterations to magic and birthsigns and I'd say 99% of the load orders that are posted around heren have later loading mods to address these two areas. This then leads to combat and weapon stats. First Wrye Bash can import weapon stats and again override the rule of one, but that is not the issue with Duke Patrick.

Back when OOO & Frans was first being made OBSE was not that mature yet. The first path to weapn stats and combat tweaks were working within the system. This path (MOBS) is tried and true but it has drawbacks. First and foremost - patches. Each new mod added weapon has to be patched to MOBS stats to be on par.

To address this modders had turned to OBSE for other alternatives for realistic damage. Here are the main examples of this:
http://tes.nexusmods.com/downloads/file.php?id=23062 - here the stats and skills matter for adjusting the damage formula more so than vanilla - leading to a more RPG type of experience.
http://tes.nexusmods.com/downloads/file.php?id=32651 - provides a basic global scaling of damage without needing to use the games difficulty slider.
Duke Patrick Melee Combat and Combat Archery mods - overhauls the combat formulas, game settings, and weapon stats in a new way that even goes into readling weapon materials and existing stats as a basis for new stats.
All three of these mods come with ini files allowing the end user to adjust the added damage/danger themselves. All three work out of the box with mod added weapons. Phitts is the newest while the other two date back to 2008.

The point I'm trying to make here is more of a lament. It seems that the core of an overhaul is often very interesting such as a new method of scaling - a new way of providing novelty. Then the authors go on tangents of adding what has already been added before without new innovation. level scaling is a huge gaping area that needs adjusting so we turn to overhauls but overhauls add far more than just an answer to this problem and in doing so generate the need to add blockers, patches, overrides, and basically more work. Likewise the mod author seems to paint themselves into a corner and having made a commitment to a feature only can say "sorry not compatible." Said differently if MOBS already existed then why add it? Why not add a patch to make the new weapons match MOBS stats if the user wants to later add MOBS. The more than is added - the less compatibility. The more that is added that is not novel or unique can serve to block adding what is novel and unique.

One answer to this is modularity. If the combat and stats were seperated out then all the easier to just not use it.

/rant whining ... again your mod you do as you please ... just presenting some of the meat of compatibility issues.

Saebel-
MOBS is not that huge an issue. I disagree with others who claim that the stats are more realistic. No, realistic is you get hit in the head with a hammer you die regardless of pretty much any other factors. TIE is far more deadly. DP mods will base part of the calculations for new damage on the existing damage rate of a weapon. So if that is upped then so is the final damage rate. This is livable but it is the critical shots aspect of DP that will be exacerbated - a lot more one shot deaths. DP mods are designed with vanilla in mind.

And that mod I linked to is not JeLLO .. Johns leveled List Overhaul. That seems to be removed from nexus for some reason. http://www.gamesas.com/topic/1145321-relz-johns-leveled-list-overhaul/ has a drop box link though. And yes both the mod I linked to and JeLLO can be used with most overhauls if one also bashes.

Regarding MOBs - I think you are overestimating and underestimating the stat changes at the same time. You are overestimating in respect to the amount of change to the damage setting, by saying that all new added weapons have to be changed to be MOBs-like. While this isn't a BAD thing to have done for consistency, it isn't absolutely necessary. The difference won't be so glaringly obvious that they will stick out like a sore thumb. In that respect it's more of a tweak to the stats as opposed to a giant change... But then at the same time you're underestimating in respect to the amount of things changed by MOBs. It does not just change damage amount for the weapons. It also changes weights, reaches, and speeds, in order to be more realistic in line with what the shapes, sizes, and materials of the weapons, and that part is important to me. At the same time though, if not only damage, but also weight, speed, and reach are dynamically handled in a realistic way by Duke Patrick's, then this may make MOBs completely obsolete. Again though I still need to research by reading through all of the documentation.

Psymon: Correction, that mod you linked to WAS JeLLO... it just isn't anymore... when I first clicked on it, it worked perfectly fine. It seems that it disappeared within the time between my reply and your reply, so it must have vanished some time around 01:30 or 02:00... weird.

Anyway, my overhaul isn't meant to have an interesting core really that does anything revolutionary. I mean the dynamic spawn point generation is new but that is just more of a feature that ended up coming into play as opposed to a core element. Really the whole point of my overhaul was just to give myself the ability to have an alternative to FCOM.

I really need to get my rear in gear in regards to new screenshots and demo videos. As of right now the website is only showing off about 40% visually of what the mod does.

I'm not looking to belabor the point - but let me say that I've been looking at the interplay between script adjusting versus hard stat adjusting mods for a few years now.

I agree MOBS differences are not that much - however it is kind of a drag to add mods that introduce weapons and find that they aren't quite as impressive as the MOBS adjusted vanilla weapons. On the side of DP mods - the increased damage rate does carry over and that does effect the critical hits system that Spooky uses. Though again I agree it is not devastatingly so. TIE is that way, but MOBS just makes for more difficulty.

Really though I think that the core bit you have about scaling and spawning is a new take - I just find it unfortunate that once again a new overhaul has some good core points and then is dressed with the some ho hum stuff - that could be just as easily used in seperate mods and doesn't need to be incorporated. The stuff that folks will want to override anyway.

I don't mean to offend - just airing a concern that will likely be echoed by many users who will want to combine this with other mods.

A precursory glance at the leveled list entries in tes4edit and it seems that the leveled list work is most editing the existing lists and not introducing diverted or embedded lists. Is this correct? If so then bashed patching should work to combine with other overhauls and leveled list mods. Now what are those generic bash patch tags for overhauls again? I know CorePC posted them several times.

Oh my... I guess it's a good thing they're not paying me to make this for other users then or I'd be in trouble!


Actually that's the opposite of correct! There are around 100 new creature leveled lists, and around 100 new item leveled lists. I spent years perfecting my system of new leveled lists, within leveled lists, within leveled lists, integrated into the vanilla leveled lists when applicable.

Ohh well then I guess examining with just it loaded wasn't that revealing. I'm not a leveled list genius by any means.

Patches are most likely going to be the only answer and as such this overhaul will probably be on its own (used with no other overahauls) for a while.

I think it's a good thing. Coming from a modding stand point, before even considering patches, it's best to make sure the mod works the way you want it to. Then later on you can look at compatibility. It's really exciting what Cryonaut is doing, but it is his brain-child after all. Give him space to raise it.

Cryonaut,

Been playing around with this off and on for awhile now and am going to create a real game to play through since I have concluded that I like your changes. Got a couple questions as I put together my mod list and would like your recommendations.

1. You recommend Enhanced Economy (which I always use anyways), but should I leave the loot removal function enabled? Or does your leveled list tweaks eliminate most of the problems with an overabundance of rings, items, etc. I noticed you do mention this in your "learn" section, just was curious to how you configure EE. Also, do you use Nice One's "useful houses" mod?

2. Below is a brief list of mods I am planning to include (aside from some of your recommendations) that I would be interested if they would conflict with what you have included in OI:

Useful Houses (makes repairs/alchemy more effective in player owned houses)
All Natural & Animated Lighting System (AWLS)
AULIAS (you mention a few of the unique leveled items are addressed by OI, but does it address them all in some fashion?)
Persuasion Overhaul (removes the persuasion minigame)
Drop lit torches OBSE & Dungeon & Exterior actors have torches (does your mod address torches? I can't imagine playing without some form of DLT now)
WEPON
Losing My Religion

Thanks in advance, and thank you for your work on this.
YuMMz

For now yes. I'm still working on the common loot leveled lists at the moment (meaning clutter/residential stuff), and am only about 15% finished with that part, as it is one of the lower priorities in the overhaul. Unfortunately I am having my own problems with EE completely unrelated to OI at the moment that I cannnot figure out, so I'm waiting for TheNiceOne to make his way back to these forums in hopes he'll be able to help me so I can get back to testing it out. I do not use "Useful Houses" personally.

AULIAS - based on the description of it, I don't think using it with OI will break anything, however you will see no effect on any items except for the DLC-added items it affects, as OI doesn't touch those. All the vanilla quest awards though have been made static, so that means AULIAS will not be able to even FIND a better version of that item to give to you as you level up, since there will only even exist the one static version of that item in it's leveled list.

OI does not touch torches in any way. I personally use Adventurer Torches.

WEPON is already included in full within OI, so no need to add it.

With JDFan's blessing, here's a sneak peak at his work on WEPON version 2:

Manic Armor (Male and Female)
http://i212.photobucket.com/albums/cc189/JDFanning_bucket/DaedricAmber2-1.jpg
Manic Armor with Manic Warhammer, in game
http://i212.photobucket.com/albums/cc189/JDFanning_bucket/DaedricAmberinGame.jpg
Demented Armor (Female)
http://i212.photobucket.com/albums/cc189/JDFanning_bucket/FemaleHeavy.jpg
Demented Armor (Male)
http://i212.photobucket.com/albums/cc189/JDFanning_bucket/DaedricMadness.jpg

More to come Comments/suggestions are appreciated.

EDIT: Comment moved to official WEPON thread.

The mod has no bash tags nor does boss list any (by the way Boss doesn't include safer Weye.esp).

Is this just because nobody has got round to tagging it or is there a reason I am missing for not tagging. I would have thought it would be essential to tag relev or it may lose its static levelling. WIthout using another overhaul there are plenty of mods that might do that such as DLC, unofficial patches, Lame and my bash tag has an enormous list of OI levelling records. I am not expert enough to know if this is OI doing what it is supposed to, or being interfered with.

Thanks

Safer Weye is just meant to be a little temporary thing until I finish 0.94, which will incorporate everything Safer Weye does, only moreso and betterer. It PROBABLY doesn't matter where it is in the load order......... probably...... maybe.


Yup.


Any WryeBash experts able to answer this? I don't use WryeBash myself, and am not aware of any DLC that conflicts with OI...

Version 0.94 is on hold for now. I finished about 20% of my 0.94 to-do list and then hit the old familiar burnout wall. I'm in burnt-out/side-tracked mode now, catching up on some other games I've been meaning to play, and will probably get back to work on OI in around a month.