All right, I guess then I will have to just use OOO+MMM only, previously I thought that FCOM is based on OOO's rule, thus if loading TIE earlier than OOO & MMM I would able to enjoy its NPCs as well. Probably not?

Maybe I should try TIE4Mods looking at how it is compatible with OOO, etc.

Well I tried to explain it above. Not sure what else to write ...

I will say this - I've been through what you guys are going through ... mod greed it is called.

You add FCOM+TIE+200 other mods and you will be here everyday. It can turn into a gordian knot of trying to iron out why things didn't work as expected or advertised. I mean this to invoke every bit of Kafka/Philip K dike dread as I can muster.

If you want to play the game pick a quest arc for your character load your base mods and overhaul cluster and a few quest mods and play. Trying to add all possible mods and that becomes the game.

[edit] TIE4Mods is based on TIE 1.24 .. the latest was 1.48 with much more content than 1.24 had.

If you just want npcs and some various other items, I'm sure loading it earlier would work fine. I thought you wanted it the other way- tie with some ooo stuff. Either way, the bashed patch is your friend, because I believe the NPCs are all done through leveled lists.

I'm still having trouble with Argonian Beautification, but I'm not getting the scripted legs (I also installed that as well in case it was not included like I originally presumed). I'm also worried about how it will react to TGND meshes instead of HGEC (i know textures will be okay, but i'm not sure about the new leg meshes). If I could get the scripted legs working I could figure that out...
This and KATS (similar mod but for khajiit) both want Robert's females or HGEC. Both of those have unsatisfactory underwear versions for me, so I'm hoping the legs give a good indication to how much issue I'll have with using that body mesh instead. I hope it works, because KATS adds a lot of armor to fit it's bodies so if the legs meshes don't match, all those armors will likely be a problem too, meaning I'd have to switch body mods or give up on KATS.

EDIT: can't seem to get either of the beast mods' legs working. The textures seem fine for Argonians, but KATS Khajiit females don't seem to like TGND at all.

TIE or ROM or TIE+ROM is my pick of the bunch.

SDR for stealth.

If not using ROM, then LAME and/or SM for magic.

Nothing purely for "population". No thanks.

And whatever looks nice, for looking nice. Very subjective.

I only saw a bit about ROM, but it's basically OOO with OBSE ? Also, I think I saw that it is no longer developed either. There is not much information about that mod that I can find...

Also, has Anyone heard of the http://www.fileplanet.com/216598/210000/fileinfo/The-Elder-Scrolls-IV:-Oblivion---Giskards--Cyrodiil-Upgrade-Mod-Pack It seems to have lots of nice lore mods in it. There are several town mods in it that seem nice, but I'm sure they would conflict with either Better (open or closed) Cities or Open Cities Reborn, so it doesn't seem like a good idea to use those. However, I'm really liking that the stuff in the pack are all focused on lore.

It is a particular modder's "OOO redux", as it were. While true that he left "the modding scene" some time ago, work has continued (as of recently), with some very useful tweaks (e.g., some degree of modularity) in places.

The mod itself does a lot more than "just OOO", though even that is rather significant in how much it changes Oblivion. One of the most impressive things about it is the documentation, which I advise reading, if you are at all interested in ROM. That, and his scripting was for the most part excellent. It is always a pleasure to see modders who pride themselves on tight coding/scripting.

Ok, I have tried loading TIE abefore OOO and MMM, and it seems to work well for now, will see how it goes from here.

As for population mods, there's quite a couple like http://www.tesnexus.com/downloads/file.php?id=32248 (though there's a bit of lore unfirendly as in some of the npcs names are fargoth, etc from morrowind) and http://www.tesnexus.com/downloads/file.php?id=40083. Also the popular crowded cities mod which also includes open cities patch if you played with that. Howver, after playing with various population mods, I still prefer corwded cities with TIE npcs.

CUO will not work with any other overhaul due to diverted leveled lists. Read more at the bottom of http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Tes4Mod:FCOM#Unresolved_Non-CTD_Compatibility_Issues_for_FCOM.2FOOO.2FMMM. To quote:

Its author is often referred to around here as "he who shall not be named" because if you do a thread lock is likely. He is also well known for making mods that intentionally conflict with and cause issues with other mods.

Avoid it.

Well, that svcks. Was thinking his mods were good. On another note, it seems that TGND will NOT work with either beast mod above. I suppose I could replace the beast meshes with Robert's or HGEC meshes just for the khajiit and argonians, but that would be difficult since I don't understand oblivion file structures that well, so I would know what to grab and replace. For now I'll just look for a other smaller mods for the beast races (since those are what I play as).

I'd stick with textures and meshes that are paired. They are meant to work together.

The thing about body mods is compatibility. HGEC/EVE and Roberts Female are the two most compatible body mods due to the sheer number of patches and add ons made for them.

Even so say you add an armor mod that adds a few sets of armors but doesn't have a compatibility with a certain body mod. The problems will be cosmetic if there is not short sleeves or skirts or other body skin showing. The armor just won't be as shapely. Likewise if there is armor that is short sleeved and no body mod compatibility then you will get pink arms.

yeah, I noticed the pink arms with Kats. That was without armor though... If the armors worked, I believe they were supposed to completley change the lower body armors with cool khajiit legs. Since it didn't work, i guess removing the mod wasn't a big loss...

I'm going through all my mods right now to see what's compatible and where small conflicts might be. So I'll probably be posting on that soon

I've heard good things about a number of mods that update and replace he-who-cannot-be-named's stuff. It's mostly up on TES Nexus under the Dragon Captions Team, or various members of the group.

Even dragon captions got on his bad side and he denied them the right to update his mods.

They spent months working on updates and as soon as they entertained the idea of cleaning the mods or making them compatible with any well known mods here - he showed back up and denied them the rights to work on his mods. He made another round of updates and they split off development.

Now Dragon Captions (Biulding and company) no longer support any of his mods.

True, and for good reason. The new stuff can be found on TES Nexus, where it includes the words "Dragon Captions" in the title to avoid confusion with the modder-who-wishes-to-control.

Spiffyman, if you want to check out their work, one of the best appears to be http://www.tesnexus.com/downloads/file.php?id=22595. Note that it has some pretty hefty resource requirements to load first, because all their meshes, textures, etc, are shared among a range of their mods.

Another Overhaul question: Anyone heard of http://www.tesnexus.com/downloads/file.php?id=26892? It has some useful features in it (fading music and battle music doesn't start until you notice the enemy) but I don't know much else. Will this work well alongside several music packs I have as well as sound packs (Storms & sounds). I says something about working with weather sounds, so I assume the latter is okay, but I'm not sure if I should get rid of those music packs to use this.

EDIT: this is the last overhaul piece (music/sound) until I have finished my mod setup. I haven't touched combat overhauls since UVII doesn't like DLL, so I'll live with vanilla combat unless it becomes too annoying, in which case I'll have to look for a different combat mod.

I prefer no music and if you shut the music off in the ini then the game won't even process it and use resources on it. Oblivion still has a huge canopy of sounds + as you have discovered the sounds of Cyrodiil/Oblivifall adds much as well. So for real immersion: no music ... that way you never get a heads up that you are about to be attacked.

BMS has some issues and the mod author has posted absolute hatred for any criticisms of the mod. So I'm not posting to hate on the mod. It is an admirable attempt and if it could be done without issues that would be ideal and I'd even put music back in the game. Particularly the ability to add new environment queues and custom playlists.

The first issue is one that I only know of by other's posting about it. It messes with the mechanics of when the game considers you to be in-combat this can in turn mess with mods that require those triggers to be in place.

The next issue is that in order to do what it does you will be accompanied by an invisible rat that follows you around while in combat then disappear when you are not. Normally you can't hear or see or interact with it - unless you like to use detect life spells then you will see it all the time.

Expect others to post nothing but love for the mod.

============

Next combat .... I'm very biased in what I say here ... just keep that in mind.

Deadly Reflex and UV are both mods that offer a lot of bling and features that are meant to stretch the limits of what the game can do. And they succeed in some areas and fail miserably in others. Both have histories riddled with bug reports, heavy conflicts, and ctd issues of extreme measure. They do get a lot of press for their promises.

For the real deal combat overhaul of Oblivion these are the mods:
http://www.gamesas.com/index.php?/topic/1245339-duke-patricks-melee-combat-no-recoil/
http://www.gamesas.com/index.php?/topic/1243548-duke-patricks-combat-archery-mod/
These two mods transform the game into a fight for survival. Spooky has years of melee combat experience and has researched medieval combat physics and strategy. These mods don't as much blatantly push the engine to do what it wasn't supposed to (there is some of that0, as much as finely tune what it can do. They add dynamite combat AI to the NPCs who at times feel like they are other players. They make blocking and angling around shields the prime skill. They made archery deadly. They add critical hits and locational damage. They add a lot so reading the extensive readmes is paramount. Also most feature can be turned on/off in the ini files.

Spooky made several mods to support these and you may find older versions of these other mods on mod cites. Most have now been integrated into the above mods except these two:
http://www.tesnexus.com/downloads/file.php?id=16150
http://www.tesnexus.com/downloads/file.php?id=18065

Warning: when used with overhauls these can be very deadly combat experiences. TIE being the most extreme. Just remember that you have a difficulty slider.

What I would say is that these mods spoiled me after a time. They accentuate the players combat abilities in this game play and while the character's skill level matters - not as much as the player's thinking about combat. They train you to think about how you are fighting and to use strategy. This is why I can't stand Morrowind and it being almost all character skill and you as the player are a passive observer.

[edit] and I would expect AI problems using Duke Patrick and BMS together.

Worth noting as well that these concepts made their way into Skyrim. Fire an arrow, miss your target, the whole room will light up and go looking for you for quite some time. Fresh kills also set some groups of people off in search mode, but the ones it should really send into an alert don't react like they should - guards. They just make stupid comments about it.

Alright. That makes sense. If there are enough sounds in the game, the music might not be as useful. I'll try that out then. Never tried it before, but it's an interesting idea. As for the combat, I will agree that combat is Morrowind's biggest weakness. On the idea of making combat deadlier: http://www.tesnexus.com/downloads/file.php?id=35131 which is supposed to make sure a companion doesn't walk in front of your arrow during a fight. I'm going to assume that this is helpful with that combat archery, where an accidental arrow in the back my kill off my Companion (Ruined Tail).

EDIT: The readme of the Combat archery mod says not to use with OOO. Since FCOM uses that, does this mean I can't use the mod?

It actually says don't use with OOO. lemme see ... hmm I just searched the readme and couldn't find OOO or Oscuro in it. I'm going to reread it tonight so can you do me a kindness and quote that part.

Many of the conflict reports that Duke has received have come from me. What I know is that the embedded mod Lyrondor combat modifications in OOO has a bug that causes archers to spin in place when drawing a bow. It is mostly an animation glitch and they still aim well. That bug does not show up in OOO anymore unless using these mods together exacerbates this but it is not common to see at all. Maybe one in 15 archers. I think just the NPCs who get a specific Lyrondor combat AI packet, so they may be NPCs from OOO/FCOM lists. this is not game breaking.

Otherwise MOBS (the other combat mod in OOO - there called OMOBS) is mostly just stat adjusting and yes it will mean the damage is upped more with CA (depending on ini settings).

No combat archery does not stop companions from getting in the way. Most companion mods are essential aren't they? I thought Ruin was too?

Many of us here on the Oblivion forum play without music. There is a lot of nature sounds in the outdoors. It also helps with sneaking. Though a more lightweight version of the same dynamic is Ihttp://tesnexus.com/downloads/file.php?id=23545, which does not interfere with other mods or have invisible rats.


Actually they borrowed heavily from his melee and archery mods too - it is just that they made a lot of the features perks instead of innately available.

So I say again - Duke Patrick is the combat overhaul for Oblivion.

Well, in the Combat Archery readme, page 26 of 31:

Do not use OOO with this mod.  OOO will cause issues!  Such as archers spinning in place when drawing a bow and other AI related combat issues.

I suppose if you've used it with FCOM and not noticed dizzy archers, it is probably okay to use...

I would also imagine that the archery esp that I use in FCOM can be tossed out in favor of CA if it does indeed work with Fcom.

Yeah FCOM archery is not needed if you use CA. It like other mods just ups the damage on bows and ammo. This will cause the damage to be upped again by CA.

MOBS/OMOBS is not too bad, but FCOM archery up to TIE stats get ridiculous and not for most people. We are talking getting one shotted in most every fight at those levels.

I've not played OOO or FCOM in a while, but don't recall the archers causing a ctd or anything - it is a graphical glitch. Spooky is of the sort that likes his mod experience to be unfiltered by other mods, so he will advise against using them together. Problem is most overhauls with Oblivion adjust weapons (cept Frans without MOBS, Warcry, and WAC), so in order to avoid the crappy level scaling you have to use an overhaul and this is one of those small areas that the vin diagram of mods doesn't look so pretty.

Hmm, does this mean Spookys mods are not a good fit with TIE? Or do they just require a bit of configuration work? (can't test right now due to illness :sadvaultboy: )

I believe he means that together with TIE, the game would be exponentially harder. You can use them together if you're prepared for the challenge.

Spiffyman, I would say that if you like music in the game, you should give BMS a try. I know that Psymon knows a whole lot more about modded Oblivion than I do, and I am not going to disagree with him.

However, I would say that the issues he cites are not intolerable. I for once was not aware that BMS uses an invisible rat to follow you around. I have never noticed it, with life detection or without. Could it cause performance issues? I guess the answer is maybe. In any case BMS does not worry me in this respect. But then, I have a dedicated X-Fi soundcard.

As to messing with combat: I do play with DP's combat mods, and also with BMS. And I do notice that sometimes, while in combat, the music switches between combat mode and normal mode, despite me being in combat all the time. I notice it the most with MMM monsters, the golems in particular. Humanoid or other enemies I have not yet come across that bug. Again, I personally find it very tolerable. But it depends entirely on your own inclination.

BMS has good points too, like expanding the available playlists. It is up to the player to feed those lists with music. If you don't want i.e. combat music, or any music when exploring outside, just put the silent dummy file in there.

I do seem to note a quirk with my playlists though: For some reason I seem to hear not all the tracks in the playlists. Say you have 12 files for "cities"; I seem to hear the same about 5 tracks for most of the times. So the track selection is not entirely random. I have not investigated this issue, don't know if it is an issue.

In summary, BMS may not be the perfect OB music player, but the reported issues should not discourage you to try it out for yourself if you can live with them. I for once like the game better with BMS than without.

Configuration work mostly. The issue is that TIE weapons can double and triple some weapon stats. Duke Patrick mods are actually very intelligent in that they can read weapon info and recalc most weapon stats (and the hidden stats) on the fly. I won't get too much into detail about how (much is in the readme). What this comes down to is two pathways to a similar outcome. OOO and TIE make weapons more damaging by adjusting stats entry by entry - the downside is that mod added weapons may not be that impressive because they would need a patch. Spooky does it through scripts - so that vanilla or mod added weapons get the same treatment. These scripts do take into account the damage rate of a weapon and then further do things like critical hits.

Think of it like this - in TIE you are level one and meet a bandit - because it is TIE, that bandit could be leveled all the way up to 30 something - then he wields a weapon with doubled damage rate - then DP scripts scale the damage further (if active) then critical hits. You will get one shot killed many many times.

This is the division between older and newer combat mods. Older mods like MOBS/OMOBS and TIE adjust on an entry by entry basis. Newer mod methods like Duke, Kuertee Attribute Damage mod, Phitts Phighting Phixes, etc Adjust weapon and damage formulas through scripts. For whatever reason most overhaul modders went for a purely integrated approach and the lack of modularity means that you get the older combat adjustment with the scaling and so workarounds are necessary. I hope that modularity of these kinds of things is kept in mind for Skyrim.

At my suggestion/request BFG99 made this http://tesnexus.com/downloads/file.php?id=39914 ... though the description is misleading. I tried to tell him that really it is best to use with TIE and not FCOM, but he made it then moved on and aparently hasn't changed the description. Since TIE mostly only edits existing weapon entries (and not add weapons) it therefore covers only/mostly vanilla weapons. FCOM and most other overhauls add weapons, so this override will not revert their weapon stats.

Make sense?