[RELz] Oblivion Stutter Remover (OSR) : IV - Oblivion

» Wed Mar 09, 2011 10:53 am

iPrimE:
I have looked (a little...) at trying to get key functions there to run in separate threads - the CPU intensive rendering stuff and some combat AI stuff. Unfortunately the ones that would make a real difference are fairly complex.

I can override (or even optimize) the basic scene culling algorithm they use, but it appears to already be fine.

Note that the reason your GPU usage goes down is because it's not measured per-frame but per-time - as CPU usage goes up, the amount of time per frame goes up, so the GPU usage automatically goes down.

/me sleeps

» Wed Mar 09, 2011 10:05 am

If that was to me, I have followed your postings regading this and just hope you keep at it with the previous suggestion made to also post in OBGE thread. This could be something.

If the comment was not for me, please disregard and strike from the record

No no lol, it was just to everyone. That FPS increase someone discovered, or multiple people discovered. I'd already found that out on my own waayy back (I mean seriously, who doesn't try adjusting their settings after having a game for years...)

But I figured it was common knowledge because it's so simple to find out and the results so significant (so I assumed everyone had already found it out while adjusting their game settings on their own) that I didn't make a big deal about it, but I did mention *before anyone else*:) that my water settings if raised would cause a significant FPS drop -- then I mentioned several other things that could significant raise peoples FPS and I think I just felt ignored even though I was providing good information:P While someone else who provided the same information and less of it had everyone going "Zomg wow you're great thanks for the find" ;P

Don't mind me, just childish internet geek emotions that sprang out for a second:P Really I just want people to try what I suggested and see what happens. My GPU usage has dropped to <50% when it was always at 100% before and I'm getting *much better performance* with better visual quality as backwards as that sounds. Since I also turned on supersampling with no negative hit to FPS.

Another piece of information that I will provide you thankless heathens.....

Supersampling: If you go to your Nvidia control panel and turn it on for your game, then those flickers that happen on objects off in the distance as you move will go away. They are especially bad in Fallout New Vegas, I can't remember if Oblivion has the same problem or not.

» Wed Mar 09, 2011 1:11 am

There is a difference between me tweaking settings and you looking under the hood when you do your's. It is the geeks that make this game better (sorry Skyranger-1 - I mean this in a good way). If I could get my IT geeks to do this for me I would but they seem to prefer Xbox and online games. Go figure. Keep on truckin

» Wed Mar 09, 2011 12:49 pm

@Rendruk

So sorry to rain on your parade

, I'm pretty new to the thread (and forums) and didn't really read much of it

If I had, I wouldn't have bothered posting myself. Could you maybe gimme a link or tell me where exactly I can find your previous post? Thanks for taking the time to share this

» Tue Mar 08, 2011 10:39 pm

I'm doing this all with the highest game settings turn on (Except for water which seems to give me a 30 fps drop if I raise it above medium).

Ok, I admit I missed that comment of yours earlier. Sorry for that. :icecream:

I would be interested in knowing what water settings you are using. I'd like to compare yours to mine and hopefully find a good balance for me in the process. Would you mind posting your [water] settings from the oblivion.ini and possibly also the settings from the in-game water options, that would be terrific. Thanks so much! :thumbsup:

» Wed Mar 09, 2011 3:58 am

Ok, I admit I missed that comment of yours earlier. Sorry for that. :icecream:

I would be interested in knowing what water settings you are using. I'd like to compare yours to mine and hopefully find a good balance for me in the process. Would you mind posting your [water] settings from the oblivion.ini and possibly also the settings from the in-game water options, that would be terrific. Thanks so much! :thumbsup:

Well, first off it's the game engine that has the problem with water. As such, the problem also occurs in Fallout 3 (which is what I'm using just for clarification).

My water settings are all either unchecked or set to the lowest possible setting. This makes it actually look pretty nice from far away (If you've ever played Just Cause 2 it looks a lot like that from the correct distance) and it makes the water see-through when up close.

For realisms sake this is probably not good -- but frankly I enjoy being able to just look into the water and see if there's anything interesting down there (instead of having to swim through all water I see on the small chance there might be something interesting).

So I have everything set to low, but if I remember correctly the FPS increase one gets from water settings happens as soon as it's put to medium on reflection and multisampling. I just choose to put it even lower because -- and this is the most important part -- the fps increase is there whether or not you're even looking at water. Even if you're seemingly not near water at all for some darn reason I suppose as long as you're outside then it's almost always still processing it for some reason.

Another thing of note is that I've found taking busethreadedmorpher=1 actually causes crashes much more often while fighting enemies. I have every other threaded option besides audiothreading turn to 1, but I've had good luck with morpher turned off. Someone might want to test this as well.

@Iprime -- it's OK I was being childish lol. I wrote a few things a page or so back if you want to read them. A lot of it has to do with Nvidia control panel which matter only if you use an Nvidia graphics card (Unless ATI has similar settings you can tweak).

Keep in mind that if you want the control panel settings to take effect you should go to the first set of options "3d settings" then go to the first setting within it labeled "Adjust image settings with preview" Once there it will give you three options: 1. Let the 3d app decide, 2. Use the advanced 3d image settings, (choose the second option).

Then go to "Manage 3d settings" and change what needs to be changed from there.

» Tue Mar 08, 2011 11:06 pm

Another thing of note is that I've found taking busethreadedmorpher=1 actually causes crashes much more often while fighting enemies. I have every other threaded option besides audiothreading turn to 1, but I've had good luck with morpher turned off. Someone might want to test this as well.

That's strange because I had a conversation with Ian Patterson (one of the OBSE creaters) a while ago and he said the following concerning the multi-threading INI variables:

* bUseThreadedBlood - Does nothing. Isn't even read by the runtime.
* bUseThreadedMorpher - Is read by the runtime, but isn't used for anything.
* bUseThreadedTempEffects - Is read by the runtime, but isn't used for anything.
* bUseThreadedParticleSystem - Is read by the runtime, but isn't used for anything.
* bUseMultiThreadedTrees - Is read by the runtime, but isn't used for anything.
* bUseMultiThreadedFaceGen - Appears to do something. (probably generation of head meshes for NPCs in the background, as well as remorphing when people start wearing helmets)
* iNumHavokThreads - Is passed to Havok and probably does what it sounds like.
* iThreads - Is read by the runtime, but isn't used for anything.
* iOpenMPLevel - Is read by the runtime, but isn't used for anything.

» Wed Mar 09, 2011 12:41 pm

@Stormgarde: I had a similar problem with loading save games after saving with WIP 4.1.9 using ThreadHeap2. Have you tried some sort of PCB mod (Streamline, etc.)? Or SR's FastExit? Could be that your save wants to load more than what is being allocated (??) because the save expects (blah, blah, blah) to happen? I was having the laoding problem when switching one heap for another, specifically TH2 for TBB or vice versa.

You could try increasing "iPreloadSizeLimit", I have mine as follows (Oblivion.INI):

Spoiler

iPreloadSizeLimit=268435456 (256 mb)
uExterior Cell Buffer=36
uGridsToLoad=5
uGridDistantCountCity=1
uGridDistantCount=12
uGridDistantTreeRangeCity=1
uGridDistantTreeRange=22
uInterior Cell Buffer=6

Yeah, it seems [censored] to set the load limit and not increase buffer. But that was the point, with RAEVWD one has a few more LOD objects to load into memory it made sense to me to adjust the "hard" limit to meet the expectation of the Cell Buffer...that prolly didn't make sense to anyone but me. (36 cells worth of LOD as a buffer, now add all that up into MB) Yeah, Load more often...but its seamless even on Akatosh Mount.

(TBB being tbbmalloc.dll, which SR has replaced for the debug heap in WIP 4.1.9--tddmalloc.dll is available at TESnexus under OSR files tab and must be present in "..plugins/Component DLLs" folder.)

@SR-1: Another placebo effect?: Seems like tbbmalloc.dll handles high poly armors better than other heaps...any ideas why that would be so?

» Tue Mar 08, 2011 10:22 pm

That's strange because I had a conversation with Ian Patterson (one of the OBSE creaters) a while ago and he said the following concerning the multi-threading INI variables:

Well, I'm using Fallout 3 so it might be different, but more importantly I was really trying to phrase that portion of my post in a "I'm not positive but it kind of seems like..." sort of way.

I know the difference between when I've tested something throughly and figured it out and that other sort of testing which is sort of half placebo and half "I tried several things at once and can only remember one of them, but afterwards things got better"

That suggestion was one of the second types hehe.

» Wed Mar 09, 2011 1:29 am

@Stormgarde: I had a similar problem with loading save games after saving with WIP 4.1.9 using ThreadHeap2. Have you tried some sort of PCB mod (Streamline, etc.)? Or SR's FastExit? Could be that your save wants to load more than what is being allocated (??) because the save expects (blah, blah, blah) to happen? I was having the laoding problem when switching one heap for another, specifically TH2 for TBB or vice versa.

You could try increasing "iPreloadSizeLimit", I have mine as follows (Oblivion.INI):

Yeah, it seems [censored] to set the load limit and not increase buffer. But that was the point, with RAEVWD one has a few more LOD objects to load into memory it made sense to me to adjust the "hard" limit to meet the expectation of the Cell Buffer...that prolly didn't make sense to anyone but me. (36 cells worth of LOD as a buffer, now add all that up into MB) Yeah, Load more often...but its seamless even on Akatosh Mount.

(TBB being tbbmalloc.dll, which SR has replaced for the debug heap in WIP 4.1.9--tddmalloc.dll is available at TESnexus under OSR files tab and must be present in "..plugins/Component DLLs" folder.)

@SR-1: Another placebo effect?: Seems like tbbmalloc.dll handles high poly armors better than other heaps...any ideas why that would be so?

Thanks - I tried altering iPreloadSizeLimit as you suggested but it doesn't make a difference in the CTD behavior. I am also already running both Streamline and Fast Exit 2.

I'll give the WIP version a try.

» Wed Mar 09, 2011 8:59 am

* bUseMultiThreadedFaceGen - Appears to do something. (probably generation of head meshes for NPCs in the background, as well as remorphing when people start wearing helmets)

With this set to "0", I get blue-green hair on NPCs that flickers. Just a note.

» Tue Mar 08, 2011 11:31 pm

Thanks - I tried altering iPreloadSizeLimit as you suggested but it doesn't make a difference in the CTD behavior. I am also already running both Streamline and Fast Exit 2.

I'll give the WIP version a try.

Tried with WIP version 4.1.19 - generated a clean .ini file and then configured it.

I still get the CTD when loading a game with algorithm 5. The end of the OSR log is similar - last line being about block #3329 as was the case in my prior report. Starting a new game is fine, but game crashes consistently when loading a save.

I also tried with new algorithm 4 after installing that separate DLL. In that case I get a crash even when starting a new game, as well as loading a save.

» Wed Mar 09, 2011 10:05 am

...snipped...
Here is my current load order:

Spoiler

* 00 Oblivion.esm
* 01 Jog_X_Mod.esm
* 02 All Natural Base.esm [Version 1.2.1]
* 03 Francesco's Leveled Creatures-Items Mod.esm [Version 4.5bSI]
* 04 Francesco's Optional New Items Add-On.esm [Version 4.5bSI]
* 05 Cobl Main.esm [Version 1.73]
* 06 TamRes.esm
* 07 Oscuro's_Oblivion_Overhaul.esm [Version 1.34]
* 08 Mart's Monster Mod.esm [Version 3.7b3p3]
* 09 CyrodiilUpgradeResourcePack.esm
* 0A TamrielTravellers.esm [Version 1.39c]
* 0B FCOM_Convergence.esm [Version 0.9.9MB3]
* 0C Armamentarium.esm [Version 1.35]
* 0D Artifacts.esm [Version 1.1]
* 0E Kvatch Rebuilt.esm
* 0F Better Cities Resources.esm [Version 4.9.0]
* 10 CURP_Controller.esm
* 11 CM Partners.esm
* 12 CustomSpellIcons.esm
* 13 Unofficial Oblivion Patch.esp [Version 3.3.3]
* 14 DLCShiveringIsles.esp
* 15 Unofficial Shivering Isles Patch.esp [Version 1.4.0]
* 16 SM Plugin Refurbish - SI.esp [Version 1.30]
* ++ Shivering OOO.esp
* 17 Better Cities .esp
* 18 TamRes.esp
* 19 Francesco's Optional Chance of Stronger Bosses.esp
* 1A Francesco's Optional Chance of Stronger Enemies.esp
* 1B Francesco's Optional Chance of More Enemies.esp
* 1C Francesco's Optional Leveled Quests-SI only.esp
* 1D Francesco's Optional Leveled Guards.esp
* ++ Francesco's Dark Seducer Weapons Patch.esp
* ++ FCOM_Francescos.esp [Version 0.9.9]
* ++ FCOM_FrancescosItemsAddOn.esp [Version 0.9.9]
* 1E FCOM_FrancescosNamedBosses.esp [Version 0.9.9]
* 1F Natural_Habitat_by_Max_Tael.esp
* 20 All Natural.esp [Version 1.2]
* 21 All Natural - SI.esp [Version 1.2.1]
* 22 Immersive Interiors.esp [Version 0.7]
* 23 Immersive Interiors - Lights Addon.esp [Version 0.7]
* ++ Visually Realistic Lava.esp
* ++ Symphony of Violence.esp
* 24 MIS.esp
* 25 MIS New Sounds Optional Part.esp
* 26 Atmospheric Oblivion.esp
* 27 Distant Chapel Bells.esp
* 28 All Natural - Real Lights.esp [Version 1.2]
* 29 WindowLightingSystem.esp
* 2A Book Jackets Oblivion.esp
* ++ Cobl Bookjackets.esp
* ++ Item interchange - Extraction.esp [Version 0.78]
* 2B PTFallingStars.esp
* 2C RAEVWD New Sheoth.esp [Version 1.6.1]
* 2D Enhanced Economy.esp [Version 5.1]
* 2E Display Stats.esp [Version 1.3.1]
* 2F DropLitTorchOBSE.esp [Version 2.4]
* 30 FormID Finder4.esp
* 31 Quest Log Manager.esp [Version 1.3.2]
* 32 Streamline 3.1.esp
* 33 Dynamic Map.esp [Version 2.0]
* 34 Map Marker Overhaul.esp [Version 3.8]
* 35 Map Marker Overhaul - SI additions.esp [Version 3.5]
* 36 Enhanced Hotkeys.esp [Version 2.1.1]
* 37 DLCHorseArmor.esp
* 38 DLCHorseArmor - Unofficial Patch.esp [Version 1.0.6]
* ++ Mart's Monster Mod - DLCHorseArmor+Slofs .esp [Version 0.91]
* 39 SM Plugin Refurbish - HorseArmor.esp [Version 1.11]
* 3A DLCOrrery.esp
* 3B DLCOrrery - Unofficial Patch.esp [Version 1.0.4]
* 3C SM Plugin Refurbish - Orrery.esp [Version 1.11]
* 3D DLCVileLair.esp
* 3E DLCVileLair - Unofficial Patch.esp [Version 1.0.6]
* ++ SM Plugin Refurbish - VileLair.esp [Version 1.21]
* ** Lair_mobs.esp
* 3F DLCMehrunesRazor.esp
* 40 DLCMehrunesRazor - Unofficial Patch.esp [Version 1.0.5]
* ** Mehrunes_mobs.esp
* 41 SM Plugin Refurbish - MehrunesRazor.esp [Version 1.30]
* 42 DLCSpellTomes.esp
* ++ DLCSpellTomes - Unofficial Patch.esp [Version 1.0.1]
* ** Book Jackets DLC.esp
* ** GrimbotsSpellTomes.esp
* ++ MaleBodyReplacerV4.esp
* ** Armamentium female.esp
* 43 DLCThievesDen.esp
* 44 DLCThievesDen - Unofficial Patch.esp [Version 1.0.7]
* 45 SM Plugin Refurbish - ThievesDen.esp [Version 1.30]
* ** Thievesden_mobs.esp
* ++ Francesco's No Reduced Backwards Running.esp
* 46 Cobl Glue.esp [Version 1.73]
* 47 Cobl Si.esp [Version 1.63]
* 48 Bob's Armory Oblivion.esp
* 49 FCOM_BobsArmory.esp [Version 0.9.9]
* 4A Oblivion WarCry EV.esp [Version 1.09]
* 4B FCOM_WarCry.esp [Version 0.9.9MB5]
* 4C Oscuro's_Oblivion_Overhaul.esp [Version 1.34]
* ++ OOO-Water_Weeds.esp [Version 1.33]
* 4D Alluring Potion Bottles v3.esp
* 4E Alluring Wine Bottles.esp
* ** OMOBS.esp [Version 1.0]
* ** OMOBS_SI.esp [Version 1.0]
* 4F OMOBS Optional Combat Settings.esp [Version 1.0]
* ++ ArmamentariumLLVendors.esp [Version 1.35]
* 50 ArmamentariumArtifacts.esp [Version 1.35]
* 51 OOO 1.32-Cobl.esp [Version 1.72]
* 52 Mart's Monster Mod - Additional Enemy NPC Vars.esp [Version 3.7b3p3]
* 53 FCOM_Convergence.esp [Version 0.9.9Mb3]
* ++ FCOM_EntropicOrderRebalance.esp [Version 0.9.9beta2]
* 54 FCOM_RealSwords.esp [Version 0.9.9]
* 55 Mart's Monster Mod - More Wilderness Life.esp [Version 3.7b3p3]
* 56 Mart's Monster Mod - Extra Wounding.esp [Version 3.7b3p3]
* 57 Mart's Monster Mod - Dungeons of MMM.esp [Version 3.7b3p3]
* 58 Mart's Monster Mod - Hunting & Crafting.esp [Version 3.7b3p3]
* 59 Mart's Monster Mod - Farm Animals.esp [Version 3.7b3p3]
* 5A Mart's Monster Mod - Diverse WaterLife.esp [Version 3.7b3p3f]
* ++ Mart's Monster Mod - Slof Horses Complete.esp [Version 3.7b3p3]
* 5B TamrielTravellers4OOO.esp [Version 1.39c]
* ++ TamrielTravellersItemsnpc.esp [Version 1.39c]
* 5C TamrielTravellersItemsCobl.esp [Version 1.39c]
* 5D ShiveringIsleTravellers.esp [Version 1.39c]
* ++ ShiveringIsleTravellersFriendlyFactions4MMM.esp [Version 1.39c]
* ++ FCOM_TamrielTravelers.esp [Version 0.9.9]
* ++ FCOM_DiverseGuardUnity.esp [Version 0.9.9]
* ++ FCOM_BobsGuardUnity.esp [Version 0.9.9]
* ++ Mart's Monster Mod - Shivering Isles.esp [Version 3.7b3p3]
* ++ ArmamentariumLL4OOO.esp [Version 2.01]
* ++ ArmamentariumLLMagicOOO.esp [Version 1.35]
* ** Fransfemale.esp
* ++ MMM-Cobl.esp [Version 1.73]
* ** EVE_StockEquipmentReplacer4FCOM.esp
* 5E Artifacts.esp [Version 1.1]
* ** ArtifactsFemaleArmor.esp
* ++ Artifacts - ArmaCompleteAddon.esp [Version 1.0]
* 5F Kvatch Rebuilt.esp
* ++ Kvatch Rebuilt - OOO Compatibility.esp
* 60 Kvatch Rebuilt - Leveled Guards - FCOM.esp
* 61 Kvatch Rebuilt Weather Patch.esp
* 62 LetThePeopleDrink.esp [Version 2.5]
* 63 The Imperial Water - BETTER CITIES.esp
* 64 thievery.esp
* 65 thievery - EE patch.esp [Version 4.2]
* 66 VaultsofCyrodiilBC.esp
* 67 DLCFrostcrag.esp
* 68 SM Plugin Refurbish - FrostCrag.esp [Version 1.2]
* 69 Knights.esp
* ** Knights - Book Jackets.esp
* 6A Knights - Unofficial Patch.esp [Version 1.1]
* ** EVE_KnightsoftheNine.esp
* ++ SM Plugin Refurbish - Knights.esp [Version 1.06]
* 6B The Lost Spires.esp
* 6C GuardsofCyrodiilRedux.esp [Version 1.10]
* 6D Blood&Mud.esp
* 6E Blood&Mud - EE patch.esp [Version 4.2]
* 6F Lost Paladins of the Divines.esp
* 70 Origin of the Mages Guild.esp [Version 7.3]
* 71 AFK_Weye.esp [Version 2.2.COBL]
* 72 MannimarcoRevisited.esp
* 73 MannimarcoRevisitedOOO.esp [Version 0.1]
* 74 FCOM_Blood&Mud.esp [Version 0.9.9]
* ++ FCOM_Knights.esp [Version 0.9.9Mb3]
* 75 FCOM_OMG.esp [Version 0.9.9]
* 76 ElsweyrAnequina.esp
* ++ ElsweyrAnequina - Races HGEC-Robert.esp [Version 1.2]
* 77 road+bridges.esp [Version 4.6]
* 78 Feldscar.esp [Version 1.0.7]
* 79 Vergayun.esp [Version 1.0.6]
* 7A Faregyl.esp [Version 2.0]
* 7B Faregyl+Anequina Patch.esp [Version 2.0]
* 7C Molapi.esp [Version 1.0.1]
* 7D HeartOftheDead.esp [Version 6.5]
* 7E xuldarkforest.esp [Version 1.0.5]
* 7F LostSpires-DarkForest patch.esp
* 80 xulStendarrValley.esp [Version 1.2.2]
* 81 xulTheHeath.esp
* 82 MMMMWL-TheHeath patch.esp
* 83 XulEntiusGorge.esp
* 84 xulFallenleafEverglade.esp [Version 1.3.1]
* 85 LostSpires-Everglade patch.esp
* 86 Anequina-Fallenleaf-Patch.esp
* 87 xulColovianHighlands_EV.esp [Version 1.2.1]
* 88 xulChorrolHinterland.esp [Version 1.2.2]
* 89 xulBeachesOfCyrodiilLostCoast.esp [Version 1.6.4]
* 8A xulBravilBarrowfields.esp [Version 1.3.2]
* 8B xulLushWoodlands.esp [Version 1.3.1]
* 8C xulAncientYews.esp [Version 1.4.3]
* 8D xulAncientRedwoods.esp [Version 1.6]
* 8E xulCloudtopMountains.esp [Version 1.0.3]
* 8F xulArriusCreek.esp [Version 1.1.3]
* 90 xulPatch_AY_AC.esp [Version 1.1]
* 91 HeartoftheDead-ArriusCreek patch.esp
* 92 xulRollingHills_EV.esp [Version 1.3.3]
* 93 MMMMWL-RollingHills patch.esp
* 94 xulPantherRiver.esp
* 95 Blood&Mud-PantherRiver patch.esp
* 96 xulRiverEthe.esp [Version 1.0.2]
* 97 xulBrenaRiverRavine.esp [Version 1.1]
* 98 xulImperialIsle.esp [Version 1.6.6]
* 99 xulBlackwoodForest.esp [Version 1.1.0]
* 9A xulCheydinhalFalls.esp [Version 1.0.1]
* 9B Blood&Mud-CheydinhalFalls patch.esp
* 9C KvatchRebuilt-CheydinhalFalls patch.esp
* 9D xulAspenWood.esp [Version 1.0.2]
* 9E xulSkingradOutskirts.esp [Version 1.0.1]
* 9F xulSnowdale.esp [Version 1.0.2]
* A0 Feldscar+Snowdale Patch.esp [Version 1.0]
* A1 FrostcragReborn-Snowdale patch.esp
* A2 OOO-Snowdale Patch.esp
* A3 xulCliffsOfAnvil.esp
* A4 OOOCliffsofAnvilPatch.esp [Version 1.0]
* A5 NRB4+UL-II+LtPD Patch.esp [Version 3.0.1]
* A6 West Roads.esp
* A7 Fort Akatosh Redux.esp
* A8 FortAkatoshRedux-NewRoads&Bridges patch.esp
* A9 Harvest [Flora].esp [Version 3.0.1]
* ++ Harvest [Flora] - Shivering Isles.esp [Version 3.0.1]
* ++ Harvest [Flora] - DLCVileLair.esp [Version 3.0.1]
* AA Harvest [Flora] - DLCFrostcrag.esp [Version 3.0.1]
* AB HUD Status Bars.esp [Version 2.0.1]
* AC Dungeon Actors Have Torches 1.6 DT.esp
* ++ Enhanced Vegetation [100%].esp
* ++ Short Grass V3.esp
* AD Soulgem Magic.esp [Version 1.0]
* AE Toggleable Quantity Prompt.esp [Version 3.2.0]
* AF Quest Award Leveller.esp
* ++ Quest Award Leveller - Vile Lair.esp
* ++ Quest Award Leveller - Mehrunes Razor.esp
* ++ Quest Award Leveller - Knights of the Nine.esp
* B0 AgarMoreVariedSpellEffects.esp
* ** Cava Obscura - Cyrodiil.esp
* ** Cava Obscura - SI.esp
* ** Cava Obscura - Filter Patch For Mods.esp
* ++ Item interchange - Placement for FCOM.esp [Version 0.78]
* ++ Item interchange - Placement for Frostcrag Reborn.esp [Version 0.78]
* B1 Atmospheric Loading Screens - No Text.esp
* B2 EVE_KhajiitFix.esp
* B3 1em_Vilja.esp [Version 3.1]
* ++ 1em_Vilja_as_Custom_by_Gonzoguns.esp
* ** 1em_Vilja OOO FCOM Fix.esp
* B4 bgBalancingEVCore.esp [Version 10.52EV-D]
* ** TamrielTravellers Cosmetics Cobl or RBP.esp
* B5 bgMagicEV.esp [Version 1.7EV]
* ++ bgMagicSpellTomes_for_WryeBash.esp [Version 1.68EV]
* ++ bgMagicItemSigil.esp [Version 1.68EV]
* ++ bgMagicEVStartspells.esp [Version 1.68EV]
* B6 bgMagicBonus.esp [Version 1.7EV]
* ++ bgMagicEVAddEnVar.esp [Version 1.68EV]
* B7 bgMagicPotionNumberSoulGemValue.esp [Version 1.68UV]
* ** bgBalancingEVOptionalNPCDiversity, Vanilla.esp [Version 10.0EV-D]
* ++ bgBalancingEVOptionalFCOMAdditions.esp [Version 10.]
* B8 bgBalancingOptionalNPCDiversityKvatchRebuilt, for Wrye Bash.esp [Version 9.0EV-D]
* B9 bgBalancingEVLAMEAddition.esp [Version 10.51EV-D]
* ++ bgBalancingEVLAMEGlue.esp [Version 10.0EV-D1.62EV]
* ** bgBalancingEVOptionalNPCDiversityLAME.esp [Version 10.5EV-D]
* ++ bgBalancingEVOptionalSeamReducerHighElfFix.esp [Version 10.0EV-D]
* BA bgIntegrationEV.esp [Version 0.993]
* BB Better Cities Full - B&M Edition.esp [Version 4.9.0]
* BC Better Cities - Unique Landscape Barrowfields.esp [Version 4.7.0]
* BD Better Cities - Unique Landscape Chorrol Hinterland.esp [Version 4.8.4]
* BE Better Cities - Unique Landscape Cheydinhal Falls.esp [Version 4.8.1]
* BF Better Cities - Unique Landscape Skingrad Outskirts.esp [Version 4.8.1]
* C0 Better Cities - Thievery.esp [Version 4.8.0]
* C1 Better Cities - VWD of the IC.esp [Version 4.7.0]
* C2 Better Imperial City.esp [Version 4.9.0]
* C3 Better Imperial City - OMG.esp [Version 4.7.0]
* C4 Better Cities - The Lost Spires.esp [Version 4.9.0]
* C5 Better Cities - COBL.esp [Version 2.1]
* C6 Better Cities - Unique Landscape Imperial Isle.esp [Version 4.8.1]
* ** bgMagicEVShader.esp [Version 1.7EV]
* ++ bgMagicShaderLifeDetect.esp [Version 1.68]
* C7 BubbleFx.esp
* ** NRB4 Standard Road Record.esp
* ++ OOO Harvest Containers Filter patch for mods.esp [Version 1.03]
* ** All Natural - Indoor Weather Filter For Mods.esp [Version 1.2]
* C8 Bashed Patch, 0.esp

Given how stable my setup normally is with algorithm 5, I'm a little reluctant to abandon it outright without at least trying to figure out what's causing this CTD. Therefore, any suggestions for things I can try to debug this would be welcome.

I see you have Immersive interiors as well as All Natural. Try disabling Immersive Interiors, does mostly the same as All Natural and AN is clean. Also, NBR4+UL-II+LtPD Patch.esp and NBR4 Standard Road Record shouldn't be enabled at the same time...and "Merged" in Wrye...I don't think that would fix it, but some load order tweaking might.

» Wed Mar 09, 2011 2:39 am

I see you have Immersive interiors as well as All Natural. Try disabling Immersive Interiors, does mostly the same as All Natural and AN is clean. Also, NBR4+UL-II+LtPD Patch.esp and NBR4 Standard Road Record shouldn't be enabled at the same time...and "Merged" in Wrye...I don't think that would fix it, but some load order tweaking might.

I'll try that, although Immersive Interiors is what allows you to "see" the street outside of the windows, while All Natural just controls whether it's dark or light out. With All Natural alone the window will be opaque, but with Immersive Interiors you can actually see the street outside. They're designed to work together.

As for the New Roads and Bridges - I believe what I have is actually consistent with the readme but I'll double check. NRB4 Standard Road Record.esp has the {{BASH:Deactivate,Roads}} tags and is imported into my bashed patch and inactive. NRB4+UL-II+LtPD Patch.esp patches landscape for UL: Imperial Isle, Let the People Drink, and New Roads & Bridges so it needs to be active. I don't believe it actually addresses the master road record like the other esp.

I will say that I've been running this setup fine for months without a CTD. It does seem like once I get over some sort of hidden resource limit I hit this behavior. The first time was when I tried adding Dungeons of Ivellon to the mix. I eventually uninstalled that, but it recurred when I upgraded Faregyl this week to the new version which now requires OBSE. The behavior didn't occur with the old version.

I don't think it's specifically a problem with Faregyl, though, but rather some sort of resource limit.

» Tue Mar 08, 2011 9:31 pm

I'll try that, although Immersive Interiors is what allows you to "see" the street outside of the windows, while All Natural just controls whether it's dark or light out. With All Natural alone the window will be opaque, but with Immersive Interiors you can actually see the street outside. They're designed to work together.

As for the New Roads and Bridges - I believe what I have is actually consistent with the readme but I'll double check. NRB4 Standard Road Record.esp has the {{BASH:Deactivate,Roads}} tags and is imported into my bashed patch and inactive. NRB4+UL-II+LtPD Patch.esp patches landscape for UL: Imperial Isle, Let the People Drink, and New Roads & Bridges so it needs to be active. I don't believe it actually addresses the master road record like the other esp.

I will say that I've been running this setup fine for months without a CTD. It does seem like once I get over some sort of hidden resource limit I hit this behavior. The first time was when I tried adding Dungeons of Ivellon to the mix. I eventually uninstalled that, but it recurred when I upgraded Faregyl this week to the new version which now requires OBSE. The behavior didn't occur with the old version.

I don't think it's specifically a problem with Faregyl, though, but rather some sort of resource limit.

You might want to mention your findings in the Faregyl thread. The new version was a bit quirky and a few of us helped Arthmoor track down some issues. Not saying that it is Faregyl, but something in your LO does seem to be gobbling up resources as you load a saved game. Also the newer All Natural does have a few things to make the windows a little more immersive. Nothing to the extent of Immersive Interiors, but they're not opaque. In Chorrol, you'll be able to see the weather outside when it's raining too. They will gradually expand that to the other cities.

» Wed Mar 09, 2011 6:41 am

You might want to mention your findings in the Faregyl thread. The new version was a bit quirky and a few of us helped Arthmoor track down some issues. Not saying that it is Faregyl, but something in your LO does seem to be gobbling up resources as you load a saved game. Also the newer All Natural does have a few things to make the windows a little more immersive. Nothing to the extent of Immersive Interiors, but they're not opaque. In Chorrol, you'll be able to see the weather outside when it's raining too. They will gradually expand that to the other cities.

I have the most recent version of All Natural, so I'll take a look at the differences. Disabling Immersive Interiors didn't make a difference in CTD behavior. Reverting to Faregyl 1.0.10, however, did resolve the CTD problem although that's to be expected I think.

So, I can avoid the CTD without upgrading Faregyl although my gut is telling me there is something else at play since I had a similar issue when I tried to add Ivellon to my mix in December which is obviously a completely different yet still resource-hungry mod - that's what makes me think there is some kind of resource limit at play in OSR that isn't documented.

I believe Arthmoor already saw my note in another thread about this although it wouldn't hurt for me to mention it in the Faregyl thread.

» Wed Mar 09, 2011 12:27 am

Wouldn't it be nice if there was some "merged" FCOM, MMM, UL...etc, patches just so you wouldn't have 15 plugins with one mod. Just a thought. Andalaybay points out what I was going to: newest All Natural is pretty good, and its not completely opaque...just done in a way that takes less resource. AND its being developed and updated, whereas I am not sure about Immersive Interiors. Have you exploited the LAA tweak yet?

LOL! again posting at the same time! Ima take a peek at the differences in plugins for your Faregyl problem...

» Wed Mar 09, 2011 7:27 am

Wouldn't it be nice if there was some "merged" FCOM, MMM, UL...etc, patches just so you wouldn't have 15 plugins with one mod. Just a thought. Andalaybay points out what I was going to: newest All Natural is pretty good, and its not completely opaque...just done in a way that takes less resource. AND its being developed and updated, whereas I am not sure about Immersive Interiors. Have you exploited the LAA tweak yet?

I could merge some mods - although I'm not near my limit on total number of ESP, ESM, BSA files and it's easier to upgrade to newer versions when you use the original versions and names.

By LAA tweak do you mean the 4 Gbyte patch for the executable? Yes I've had that for some time. My system and graphic memory usage is fine - nowhere near the limits.

» Tue Mar 08, 2011 10:02 pm

Stormgarde, I think I found your trouble in the readme: "Upgrading to 2.0 from 1.x WILL require a CLEAN SAVE." Direct quote:

Upgrading From Version 1.x
--------------------------

In order to upgrade from previous version 1.x copies of Faregyl, it will be necessary to perform a clean save. Yes, this means those of you who have finished the mod will need to do it over again, but it is necessary in order to be able to work in the changes needed for the expansion of the major quest material.

Once you've removed the old 1.x version, be sure you also get rid of the BSA file. Version 2.0 does not have one.

Also take note, Version 2.0 onward will require OBSE. Some OBSE functionality was required in order to facilitate portions of the new quest material.

Note the removal of the BSA file also.

» Wed Mar 09, 2011 12:49 am

Stormgarde, I think I found your trouble in the readme: "Upgrading to 2.0 from 1.x WILL require a CLEAN SAVE." Direct quote:

Note the removal of the BSA file also.

Yes, I was aware of that and took care of it. I removed the BSA file and with respect to a clean save the behavior occurs even with a new game. In other words, create a new game, save, then immediately try to exit and reload the save. In that case the save always had 2.0 loaded without a prior version - and there is a consistent CTD when using OSR algorithm 5 for heap replacement.

» Wed Mar 09, 2011 2:47 am

On the subject of water reflections. As daft as it may sound, those are directly tied to VWD data. I used to have a screenshot even of part of a lake in Blackwood that was very obviously reflecting buildings that weren't there. So it makes a great deal of sense that having a ton of VWD would impact performance if it's all been set to reflect in the water too. You can easily demonstrate this for yourself by deleting all of the DistantLOD files and loading the game. You should note that all of the reflections of statics are now gone. NPCs being non-static will still show up though, so it won't remove them all. Rebuild your VWD data and all of the reflections come back.

Now, if you want to know why the game appears to process water regardless, just do a tcl sometime while testing and dive under the landscape (and LOD land plane if necessary) and notice what's down there. Yep, water. The vast majority of water cells in the game are set at the default height of 0, and whether or not the CS is marked to say it's there, the water is always down there.

» Tue Mar 08, 2011 11:15 pm

One additional note on this that would further suggest there is a resource limit of some sort at play. I tried disabling another "big" mod (chosen at random) as a test, then reinstalled Faregyl 2.0 and was able to load the games without a CTD.

It really does seem like there is a resource limit at play here - given my observations the issue doesn't seem to be caused by any specific mod as much as the cumulative effect. The game runs fine with a new game, but when loading a save there is some level of critical mass beyond which OSR seems to choke on game load when using algorithm 5.

I'm hoping SkyRanger will ultimately be able to offer some debugging assistance with this since he obviously understands how this works under the hood much better than I. OSR makes too much of a critical difference in game performance, particularly when using that algorithm (my experience with the others isn't nearly as good) so ultimately I'm going to give that priority.

In the absence of that I guess I'll need to just eliminate one or two bigger mods and not add anything else.

» Wed Mar 09, 2011 10:31 am

Now, if you want to know why the game appears to process water regardless, just do a tcl sometime while testing and dive under the landscape (and LOD land plane if necessary) and notice what's down there. Yep, water. The vast majority of water cells in the game are set at the default height of 0, and whether or not the CS is marked to say it's there, the water is always down there.

That's a very important point Arthmoor. I hope everyone took it in.

» Tue Mar 08, 2011 10:35 pm

Noted and tested. WOW. I forgot what it looked like without the reflections...but another tweak in All Natural (Set ANVars.FogLength to like 12 or 13 hours makes Streamline's StreamSight like fog but RAEVWD objects still either visible or whitewashed.) With the fog, looks better without reflections and gives me the feeling I got watching "Excalibur" back in the day. /me searches for soundtrack

I apologize to Stormgarde, not meaning to state the obvious things when troubleshooting mods. :thumbsup:

» Wed Mar 09, 2011 12:26 am

That's a very important point Arthmoor. I hope everyone took it in.

I also hope everyone took in the even more important point - it's tied to VWD data. The more VWD data you run with, the more static reflections you'll get. That said, even I didn't really think about it again until it got mentioned here. I'll have to try turning off the static reflections and see what that gets me.