Unfortunately this is the truth regarding many games nowadays. Built for xbox (mainly anyway I′d guess) and ported to PC and PS. Badly, badly ported from what I′ve been told. I just wish they could develop them seperately and equally important, get off the steam boat

I've said this in the skyrim forum, but what would have been the harm in using Skyrim's mob leveling system(thus reducing the need for Oblivion's +5s to keep up with the bad guys as you leveled), skyrim's perk system, with Oblivion's character creation system? When you level up you get to choose a +3 to any stat related to a skill you used to level up(and you can choose two attributes like in Oblivion). I can't help but feel that Bethesda took the complaints of having to get +5s to all attributes and micromanaging the skills/stats relating to the difficulty of the monster auto-leveling as a cry to remove them completely. If they aren't there, you don't need to micromanage. Then again, you didn't need to micromanage in Morrowind or Daggerfall as much either and they were all there(with even more choices).

I remember playing battlespire which had a really complex character generation system, especially for its day.

It had a point buy system that let you buy stats, starting equipment, spells and even advantages/disadvantages (like regenerating hp or not being able to wear heavy armor).

I dont see whats so bad about it or why Bethesda keeps removing the RPG from the game.

What next, are blunt weapons going to be removed entirely in the next game? In Oblivion, swords are already far better than maces/axes due to their sheer availability (mace of molag bal is worthless compared to swords like gold brand or ebony blade).

I still miss morrowind style clothing and i want to mod it back, but nobody seems to know how to do it....

Skyrim's just aimed at a different market, one that enjoys Sacred, and Diablo, etc. Doesn't make them stupid, just means a lot of them want constant combat and loot, less looking at numbers, dealing with merchants, working through long guild quest systems, working through house factions at all, etc. I have no problem with this, and I'm glad it gives them big sales. That means, though you and I have to rely upon modders to change what gamesas produces into something we enjoy. I suspect we'll see at least one character development system that includes (gasp!) numbers after the CK appears, and I'll be using it happily. But I think this is less a case of Morrowind vs Oblivion vs Skyrim than three very good games going to different audiences.

If Skyrim aimed at a different audience, one that enjoyes Sacred....they failed, because I am still playing Sacred but have pretty much quit Skyrim. Read the Skyrim forum and see the same thought emerging under different headings and ideas- "why am I bored?" "Skyrim seems like Fallout", etc etc. Each time I look in there are more of these threads.
What is happening?

Sacred had a character development that allowed you to play the game even after you'd memorized all the events and geography. Oblivion had a Character development that.....Morrowind had a -

The loss of choices, the loss of assets, character development and NPC interactions- these things matter.
And that's why I wrote the original thread title, "Oblivion may be the last Elder Scrolls game with an extended Character build'.


Most people, not all, do not repeatedly play through Fallout. Some do, I'd say most do not. Skyrim is Fallout 4. People are complaining they are growing bored. There have always been detractors with every Elder Scrolls game, but not so many bored so soon after release. Anecdotal examples of an bored Morrowind player will not address the reactions being expressed on the Skyrim site right now.

Oblivion had a character development that allowed one to keep playing the game.

I agree with your original post. I have a friend in Ukraine who quit playing Skyrim after about a month and a half. It got repetitive and it doesn't have much replay value to him, as he hasn't seen anything that he can do or not do with any other race. As in, all races are allowed to join all factions, despite the fact that the nords are racist towards elves. (Gimme a break. Playing as an elf, I'd expect to be shunned from joining most factions or even being kicked out of inns or shops just for being the race that I am. That is realism to me)

A hell of a lot of people are playing Skyrim. They don't include you, or me. But looking at the loudly complaining threads in Skyrim general discussion is no more conducive to figuring out how well liked the game is than looking at all the cheerleaders who post there, either. It's simply not the game we want, but it gives the appearance of a very well liked game. And my mention of Sacred and Diablo was meant to indicate the market share the game was aimed at, not that every Sacred or Diablo player would enjoy it. As I suspect you know.


No argument. But the people who like it, and like similar games, don't want extended character builds at the start of the game. You do; I do. I regard the character design at the start of Darklands as the finest ever created. I suspect most of the people who play Diablo or Sacred would go cross-eyed checking it out. It wouldn't be cynical to note the way the developers of Skyrim--of the same people involved the last two ES titles--now disparage the same character creation system they touted in those earlier products.


I'm not sure who the last line is aimed at; hopefully not me, as it demonizes and is unfair. Morrowind, Oblivion, and Skyrim are all interesting games, each with its own flaws and strengths, and aimed at separate markets. I've seen nothing to indicate a whelming forth of horror at Skyrim from its players, though some are annoyed at the same qualities we find lacking. The answer for you and I is mods, and I'll be checking back in about 6 months to see how things go in Skyrim modding.

Even with oblivion there is precious little replay value especially as character builds are limited.

Most of the skills are worthless which means there is no point selecting them as major skills.

Security instead of alteration makes no sense, when alteration does what security does and so much more (especially with the skeleton key).

Illusion is better than speech craft as well.

So the way i see it, the "Best" build is a battlemage style build with :

-Blade (blunt is inferior, less weapons, slower attack speeds)

-Heavy armor (easier to find, breaks less, also better artifacts)_

-Alteration (Water walking, breathing, shield spells, open lock spells...)

-Illusion (paralyze, chameleon, invisibility, charm, silence...)

-Destruction (very magicka intensive, useful throughout the game)

-Armorer (getting it to 50 to repair magic items is important, as well as 75 for the over repair bonus)

-Block (shield bash, helps reduce damage early game) or Atheletics (running speed)

Everything else can be replaced either by magic or isnt that important. Like Acrobatics...ive never encountered a situation where i thought "damn, i really wish i had higher acrobatics now" and you only need mercantile 50 because money is so easy to get.

With morrowind i remember having a LOT more choices...especially with minor skills and armor choices.

I'm going to turn some of what you said upside down to refute that. I hope you don't mind.


The point of making something a major skill in Oblivion is to manage level advancement, and to give the character a "push" in the right direction. As you pointed out with your "ideal battlemage," the choice of a major skill can facilitate reaching a level where a skill is no longer "worthless." Your choice of Armorer is a good example of this.

Thus...


Unlocking spells don't work underwater. Spells to unlock Hard or Very Hard locks require a high Alteration skill, whereas lockpicks will work for anybody. Also, Security advances very quickly with use, so a Thief build who starts with high security can get very advanced, very quickly. Just a thought on the "other side..."


Well, Illusion is better than anything, and a master illusionist can completely break the game, to the point where you barely need any other skills at all.


On the other hand, several fine one-hand blunts can be picked up in the course of doing other things. Not everybody's choice, of course, but Calliban's Grim Retort is a wonderful weapon for the wandering Nord Barbarian.


Heavier, provides no more protection at high skill level...


Different strokes, and all that. In recent times, most of my characters have had Acrobatics as a major. It's incredibly valuable to be able to jump up onto high places, especially if you're a relatively weak character and something big is chasing you.


It did. One of the common threads running through these discussions is the gradual "cutting" of content, from one game to the next.

For me, you basically lost credibility when you started talking about a best build. It's a role playing game, the feel of the build is more important than its power. If I'm playing a lightly armoured archer then a high skill level in Acrobatics could be the difference between victory or reload. If I'm playing a pure thief, picking security makes sense, If I'm playing a mage, why would I use heavy armour? Picking skills based on how useful they are is powergaming, which basically eliminates replay value, while picking skills that match your character concept adds replay value by changing how you play.

Morrowind did do it better though.

Theres precious little roleplaying in oblivion. I certaintly never felt like i was playing a RPG...it felt more like an action hack and slash, especially with the combat system. Every fight strategy is basically block -> attack while enemy is recoiling -> block again, or casting a spell if the enemy is blocking. Quests are terribly linear and there are almost no dialog choices at all besides "click to proceed to next stage of quest conversation". Infact, almost all the quests become pointless because you do not get any xp for doing them and the reward is not worth the time (usually, gold because gold is easy to get).

I dont pick skills based on stat or level advancement because of the level system mod i use. I think skill based level up is a terribly poor way to do a level system...especially since the best way to level skills is to do nothing but run around spamming low level spells or spamming the jumnp key, instead of actually playing the game. So i just pick the ones that i will use the most.

Even when playing a thief character i never had the need to jump to somewhere much higher. Playing a thief character also felt incredibly frustrating with the low bow damage and slow speed (since you need to sneak).

And with the skeleton key, you can open any lock just by spamming auto-attempt enough times, so you can use that if you find a locked underwater chest (there are locked underwater chests? which ones?)

Somewhat off topic, but does anyone know of any mods that add morrowind stuff into oblivion? Like the ability to wear clothing with armor, or just morrowind style clothing. The clothing ingame just looks god awful, especially compared to the exquisite level clothing that was in morrowind.

Especially if your character is small and slow like the lop-ear mini I played for a bit. She did a lot of running and jumping away from big bad pursuers

I've been doing nothing but roleplaying for several hundred hours. Maybe the problem is the quests. Yeah, that's it; they force you to follow them mindlessly, so there's no opportunity to roleplay...

Seriously, though... Yes, the quests in Oblivion are linear. Just as they are in Morrowind, Daggerfall, etc. I can't imagine playing an Elder Scrolls game and just doing the things the stupid NPCs tell me to do.


I do likewise. But I hope you see the difference between roleplaying and "the best way to level skills..."! We have a number of long-time console players around here, who have no problem working within the game's vanilla mechanics to roleplay.


Here again with the "need." I suppose you have no interest in seeing what's in the chest on the second story of the burned out alchemy shop, or in getting to a bunch of chests that are stashed here and there on ruined forts. You probably don't do a lot of jumping over traps and obstacles in dungeons, either. ...Not to mention climbing and jumping all over things just because it's fun...

I'm not sure what your complaints are about the sneaking and bow. With good sneak skills, you can run in iron boots and still be sneaking. And a sneak attack with a poisoned bow will usually take down anything that's around your level (if not immune to poison.) A sneak attack with an enchanted poisoned bow is very effective indeed.


Yeah, you could do that, but it wouldn't be roleplaying, right? Yes, there are locked chests under water. There's one in Vilverin (everybody does that dungeon, don't they?), and there's a locked door underwater in a location you have to get to on a DB quest (although there is a key if you want to go hunt for it.) My point was that you have to use the security skill to open those locks, not that it was hard to do.

I think skill-based leveling is wonderful. I level up based on what I am doing. The best way to level skills is to use them. Plain and simple. People who feel the need to efficiently level their character by getting +5s all the time, do so because they can't stop grinding their skills, as you mentioned above, it's the best way to level. But actually, it's not. Blandness of character, over and over. If you create a character, and just play it, no grinding, you'll have a wonderful character, no efficient leveling required. And another bonus to not grinding, is that, based on your usage of skills in the previous level, you create a unique character. A character who does not powerlevel will never get +5s all the time. Maybe some of the time. And thus, you create your character; one with strengths, and most importantly, weaknesses. Because where is the challenge of being all-powerful all the time?
It must get boring power leveling, as all your characters end up being the same, all the time.

I don't mind the leveling system, I don't power level and I could care less about getting +5s, I just play, the skills that I chose for my character depends on the certain character that I am playing, I will never chose premade classes.

As for quest? I hardly touch them, I'm a PS3 player, so no fancy mods, But I am a roleplayer, last I checked I was near 1000 hours with all my character combined, the highest was 300 hours, who I retired so I would not get with the A bomb, And guess what I only did the Mages Guild quest with him, so Don't start spouting nonsense about oblivion not having replay value, or that there is hardly any roleplaying In Oblivion, it seems like you just lack imagination :/

I don't care about the "best builds" if I see a locked chest, and I'm playing as a someone who does not know how to lockpick or know magic, then I leave the chest be, ect ect.

Yes. That is roleplaying.

At the risk of sounding smug, I haven't started Skyrim yet. It's on a "strategic hold" until mods get a hold of the construction set and put out mods that fix these kinds of things.

...and the above was exactly what I was expecting to see.

Still working on Oblivion (almost done with it). I did the same with Oblivion, BTW, waiting for the modifications that were so necessary to fix things that needed fixing. Would that every game out there had such a powerful community of mages.

Still kickin it in morrowind. 9 years after release. Best TES in my eyes.

This aligns with my opinion as well. But, I think the issue of simplified character builds is not just a TES or rpg problem. It is impacting the gaming genre as a whole. Many sports sims such as the NBA 2k series and Smackdown wrestling had extensive (stat based) character building systems that were driven by your player's actions and performance. Concentrate on dribbling and stealing to become a skilled point guard. Concentrate on rebounding and blocking in your games to define a center. Now, these games just allow you to play hard and win games (ie... level up), and then apportion the points across any of the skill categories that you see fit. Modern gamers love it. I hate it. When I took pains to build a crafty wrestling diva by practicing technical maneuvers, speed and reversals, I gained a lot of satisfaction taking down huge male brawlers by out smarting them online. I also gained a lot of respect on the leaderboards, because most players knew and respected the intense gameplay and practice required to build that type of wrestler. Now, folks can just play hard, even cheat or game the system (power-level) to create any character type they like. I no longer compete online because it has lost it's meaning.

As far as Oblivion goes, I never stressed about never getting all 5's when leveling. I played to the skills of the character and allowed them to develop normally. All 3's are just fine. I also never had a problem with the enemies continuing to scale, and never had a problem keeping the character competitive. I actually like the fact that enemies continue to gain power, and the character needs to be on their game to remain viable. Bandits in glass never bothered me much either. I just role-played that they stole the stuff. After all, they are trying to jack me for mine... made sense that they have had some success just as your character has. In short, many of the mechanics that are defined as short commings in Oblivion never really bothered me. It served as one of the finest role-playing sandbox experiences I have ever had. My characters were simply flawed in that they could not appreciate all of their experiences without meaningful companionship, and this was the largest obstacle I had to deal with during my 800 hours of vanilla / 360 gameplay.

I miss the initial character definition options in Skyrim, as well as the simplification of the racial abilities. The level as you play paradigm, along with the use of the skill trees and perks follows the general direction of gaming (sports, rpg's, action, etc) as I see it. Bethesda has a challenge in trying to satisfy an existing dedicated and sophisticated user base, as well as updating the game and appealing to new users. Both games have pluses and minuses involving mechanics. Thankfully for me personally, both games work. The biggest drawback for me in Oblivion was a lack of companionship. The biggest drawback in Skyrim for me is a lack of morality. The removal of fame, infamy, repentance, via the Wayshrines and impact if you choose to pursue evil. Oblivion was uniquely balanced in this manner without forcing it upon players who did not wish to play that way. I tend to stumble and miss the sandbox elements of the experience, more than the rpg build and calculus elements when playing both games. Beth has many different types of gamers to satisfy, and both games are among the best rpg sandbox environments created. I think the CK will ultimately define the future success and longevity of Skyrim, as it has for Oblivion.

I thought that was a pretty good response post, Fable2.

I can't tell from the Skyrim forum if today's boosters will find what I did- that Skyrim does not hold like Morrowind and Oblvion. If they do, though, and Bethesda see no reason to change the formula,that opens up a niche market for someonelse to fill. It's a pretty big niche.

Sacred's been bandied about here- and there- there's talk Skyrim is a glorified hack n slash. That's an interesting comparison. But Sacred has a character development system,not as natural as Bethesdas, ( I wonder how many know that Sacred was made in competition to Diablo and Bethesda?) but it allowed variation. The NPC's don't communicate as much as Oblivion, but in general play they're not that far behind Skyrim.


I'm wandering- I have one real point. There is a cultural divide here- and Fable2 alluded to those who enjoy Skyrim. I will never be capable of the game twisting you folks who grew up with computers and games have, it seem to me, at the tips of your fingers. People did things to Sacred that seem, sacriligious? (joke) They equiped runes rather than reading them, for instance, and made powerful characters out of secondary attacks that are quite amazing- like the ice cycle mage. Anyway, the point is character building with some games can be a challenge- I'd hate to compute the damage formula for Sacred. Morrowind and Oblivion had character build systems that though involved, allowed casual minds like mine to participate. They were not overly complex, but they were involved and interesting. That- that was deemed too complex and unneccesary overhead to some theoretical player on a console? The builds of previous Elder Scrolls games were too involved, too hard????

Not for you guys, and not even for me. I think Skyrim proves you can't stuff enough 'stuff', enough events and features into a game to make up for a loss of character, if its not there. And the loss of NPC interactions realy hurt too.

Yes, you almost needed, well, I probably needed a manual but would never buy one for some modern RPGs. That's what made Bethesda different in Oblivion- it was still involved, but not in the weeds, not Algebra 2 Trig required.

I keep hearing how Skyrim was made for the consoles- and I've been pondering the lack of reading and such in the current generations- but in truth, you guys digest game planning much easier than I. It's supposed to be me that needed the perk system in skyrim, and that's not true. I don't want it- unless, as a poster suggested here, they add some other features to the build as well.

The truth is, you young folks are much better at game mechanics and character building than I am- and while you may not need more unneccesary complications, you do need involvement and choices, do you not?

Because, it's fun to figure things out and then do them your way.

My first RPG was from a series like TES titled 'Realms of Arkania'. The specific game within the series was titled 'Blade-of-Destiny'. You guided a team of six characters. When they leveled up, it could take an hour or more to work through assigning advances. Leveling was my favorite part of the game. You only needed to follow the quest line to gain enough experience to level up. There was very little that could be done to 'grind' your characters.

Daggerfall had some dice-roll elements in setting up a new character and seemed somewhat familiar even thought the system was quite different. Leveling typically meant grinding skills as well as simply adventuring. Even the original 'owners-manual' referred to the fact that beta testers had usually ensconced themselves in a inn for a month at the beginning of the game and raised a few skill levels.

Morrowind changed things once again but if anything, the grinding seemed even more a necessity.

Oblivion seemed almost too easy to raise levels and doing so could get you into trouble if you weren't careful. In time, I learned what worked and what didn't. With enough knowledge, one can forget about the leveling system and simply play, letting the levels fall where they may. I like the fact that skills are increased by using them and that attributes are effected by the kind of skills you increase.

Unfortunately, the overall system in Oblivion was simplified to a point where compromises start to happen. For instance, picking a lock is about manual dexterity (hands and fingers) not your agility but picking locks can increase your ability to resist being staggered in combat. On the other hand, you can fight a thousand fights and never get any better at avoiding a stagger. HUH?!!!

Another example of oversimplification; in previous versions, all skills were tied to a ruling attribute but in Oblivion, only some skills are effected by their ruling attribute. A dummy can make just as good potions as a genius if they are at the same skill level even though Alchemy is ruled by intelligence.

I'm glad that every one of these systems has been at least a little different. It meant that I had to throw away my previous investment of time and effort in learning the 'system' and start over again. It has kept things fresh to a degree.

Skyrim's brilliant, dont know why people dislike it for, Skyrim has made things more simple and enjoyable

It may be more simple but apparently not more enjoyable to everyone. Many gamers, like me, like the more complicated stuff that makes you think and not just run run run everywhere while completing this and that.
A lot of people complained that Oblivion was all that Skyrim is now compared to Morrowind with the compass and all, but at least it had detailed customized character build with attributes. Something I know I would miss if I were to play Skyrim. And not just that from what I hear.

All in all, different games for different people. I just hope game devs haven′t forgotten how to make games activate that grey matter up north.

This, While I do love Skyrim, and I don't mind not having the builds, I do enjoy games that, you know make me think, It's something that has sadly been happening, games now a days are so dumified it's just sad, Heck one of the prime examples, Call of duty, I have played all of them, and you can tell that there is a huge difference between number 1 and the last one released, the older CoDs let you chose between 2 paths and you had to pay very close attention to things or else you will get killed, now flashfoward to the recent one's it's more like "OMG GRAPHICS OMG KILL ANYTHING THAT MOVES!!" :/, The more you have to read in a game the less it will sell now xD, Oh it also needs to have extremely good graphics, and as long as you press the action button(X for the ps3) you win

Granted there are games that actually make you use you're brain, but those are rare :3