Thank you.


I suspect many of them will split over time quietly into two groups: a) those who quickly finish the game as is, and leave for the next action title to rave about; and those who discover mods and become addicted to the experience of a heavily modded Skyrim. As for the niche, you're right, it's big. Even now, Howard and crew are prepping KofA: Reckoning for release, and from what little they've given out, this "revolutionary" title has nothing new to offer except ever more "pulse-pounding combat graphics and animations." I have no objection to such a title, but I do think the PR that deliberately limits players' perceptions of just what's possible or desireable in the genre is a problem. It's one thing to state "We've tried to get rid of the numbers so you focus more on doing stuff," another to claim, as all the gamesas PR has, that "We've tried to get rid of the numbers because they're laughable and bad." The first is arguable, the second a condemnation that the cheerleaders will repeat ad nausem, and miss out on the purpose of those numbers.

Skyrim is a fine game, but the slick merchandising used to denigrate its predecessors and promote only one way of thinking about RPGs is what causes me problems. And we both know that if it was more profitable tomorrow for gamesas to create a game similar to Morrowind or Oblivion, its PR would start churning out interviews and other content proving that numbers, lengthy quest systems, multi-environment worlds, and a great deal of lore were the only way to build or play an RPG. The cheerleaders aren't being handed a game philosophy. They're being handed a profit and loss statement.

Fable2; remember I'm not versed in Game lore or lingo- what is KofA?

Whenever someone attempts to assign marketing values to Bethesda I get a little queasy. It's not that they're not there- decisions like those always are. But to know what they're thinking? I have little doubt that Howard thought Skyrim was an improvement. I picked that up from his eagerness whenever he discussed Skyrim.

But this brings up a consideration which needs to be asked to those who understand software and design more than I; the NPC interation in Morrowind and Oblivion- is that time consuming to install? I figure it must be. That's money spent. I've had suspicions that Fallout and Skyrim are easier to make in some respects than Morrowind and Oblivion- but heck -I just don't know. Howard may have thought the time spent doing that would be to greater effect elsewhere.

I allow myself an unsupported gut feeling about Howard. I don't place this perception or instinct in bond, but it's there. I hope I'm all wrong. But he was an american success story- started with the company, rose the ranks, became head guru. He doesn't have to change a thing. Would he see it if the Elder Scrolls was losing something of value? Or because he's Howard would that be impossible? He didn't throw out attributes because of negative reaction- he tossed them on his own. A aquaintence who reads the literature told me that. Anyway,so he's an all- star; does that mean he doesn't listen- his way or the highway- there's no chance of returning to more NPC interaction and in depth character build? If my instinct is right, he'll expand the perk tree- but not bring back attributes, and that won't cut it. He has his formula now for top tier games and he's not changing. But in this industry- change is life. I worry he's too proud.

Is is inevitable big means sterile? Doesn't have to be.

I find myself wondering if I'll buy the next Elder Scrolls. The hype will probably grab me, I tell myself.....

My son reminded me that a niche market will still have to be approached by someone or someone's with money. You can't build a computer game in your garage because you need marketing and production if in a hard box, and someone has to provide the aparatus for download. What does it cost to make a computer game first, and if successfull, go to console? Millions I guess. Capitalism better find a way, because Bethesda's Elder Scrolls are losing theirs.

The holy grail is that interaction between the game, the NPC's and the player. Instead of AI, most of the attention is on graphics. And now they've removed most of what interaction there was with the NPC's and pulled the character build structure. I'm supposed to enjoy wandering a new world in 2012? Every new game as exciting as the latest unexplored castle?
I've got games, good games, undone I could play first. I didn't finish Risen. And after Skyrim, Ancarnia (sic?) doesn't look as bad.

I knew something was wrong when I dusted off Sacred 1 and started playing it again.

Oblivion may be the last involved character build in the Elder Scrolls. And Fable2? I think Bethesda is wrong about the modern gamer. They thought a more sophisticated surface was all that was needed, and that is a mistake. These kids may not have been raised on literature, but new castles and hills will only go so far. For me, the sheen is off, the magic dulled. The Elder Scrolls are just another series.
The expectation of a new release, once as exciting as a new Beatles album, is over. My small hope is that like the Beatles, Bethesda will break form and do something new just as you've grown tired of their old sound.

In the history of this Art, it's going to be a long time before someone reaches the level of a game as good as Oblivion.
For God's sakes, how much more can be pulled out of the Elder Scrolls and still allow it to be called an RPG? Because next game you get to decide what color of pants you wear?

My apologies. KoA is Kingdom of Amalur: Reckoning. Due out next week, been hyped for quite a while, with Todd Howard one of its production team majors.

I'm not dissing gamesas for going after the gold, but rather, noting that this is a feature of any entertainment industry. It (meaning films, sound recording, jazz, rock, etc) begins as a sincere enthusiasm among a small group of people. Over time, some of those people begin forming small companies to market their wares to their fans. (You probably remember the days when game discs arrived in little baggies, long before boxart flourished.) Then as it becomes more profitable, the entertainment industry moves in, and takes over. Companies are sold for very large amounts to mega-corporations, who promise (but never in writing) to allow complete control over product--only there are many, many true stories where this hasn't occurred, and the old game developers are either driven out, or become figureheads. The accountants determine what gets made--and again, there are plenty of stories I could unload showing this to be the case. Independent ideas fall to the wayside, as the industry becomes a repository for whatever is safe and latches onto the latest fads. That's not to say the games aren't professionally made, or fun to play..! But there's very little that's strikingly different among so many titles within the same genres.

Fortunately, there are more indie game developers arising again thanks to an Internet financial model and a ready audience for what they're doing.

Morrowind was almost devoid of NPC AI. NPCs mostly stood in one spot 24/7. If you wanted an NPC to do something other than that (Fargoth sneaking to a stump, for instance) you had to write a long and elaborate script or several shorter scripts scripts to make that happen.

There is a well-known Morrowind mod called Traveling Merchants. It added a handful of merchants and pack guars who traveled a short distance and then traveled back along the same route. GhanBuriGhan, the author, was a scripting genius. It took him many long and arduous months of work and I don't know how many insanely complicated scripts to accomplish this feat. I can still remember his WIP threads and the headaches the poor guy went through trying to get this insanely complicated thing to work. It is still a technological marvel.

In Oblivion the same thing can be accomplished by a non-scripter (such as myself) in an hour or two. AI routines in Oblivion are accomplished via AI Packages implemented through a fairly easy-to-use interface. You set your perameters (start here, do this, go there, do that) and specify which times of the day or week to perform these actions, and under which conditions, if any. You place markers in the game world as reference points to tell the NPC where you want him to go (like the pieces of tape actors put on the floor to help them "hit their marks"). However, if you want an NPC to perform a unique, one-time action (Thoronir and Argamir meeting at night) you still have to script it the way it was done in Morrowind.

Once you get used to working with Oblivion's markers and AI user interface it's a fairly straightforward procedure. However! - getting the AI Packages used by various NPCs in the same cell to work together smoothly can take a lot of tedious, trial-and-error work. No matter how much you test and re-test you can never be completely sure that everything will always go smoothly once all these AI routines get going at the same time. On the bright side, screw-ups can be wonderfully entertaining (Imperial Foresters shooting arrows at each other).

I'm assuming Skyrim probably uses a system similar to Oblivions, only more refined. We know that Skyrim has Radiant Story. How that works we won't know for sure until the Creation Kit is released.

I absolutely agree with you. Your reaction is just as mine was while playing Skyrim. It is rather disheartening to witness the very thing that makes an RPG a wonderful thing get stripped from the gameplay. I am very sad to say that the "new" generation of gamers, my generation, are becoming action-crazed brats who are concerned about nothing but getting there and getting there as fast and as easily as possible. It embarrasses me that I am part of the group that Bethesda was trying to appeal to when making this game. It is as though "we" have no attention span whatsoever, what with the missile-locked objectives and the animations that make one wonder if Skyrim is even an RPG at all, and not Call of Duty: Wars of Tamriel 2. It lacks the immersive element that sends me back to Oblivion time and time again. I've enjoyed that game since my cousin gave me his copy just over three years ago. Before I saw it in my hands, I am ashamed to say that I had never even heard of The Elder Scrolls Series or Bethesda, nor did I even know what an RPG game was. Since that point, however, I have achieved a level of enjoyment from Oblivion that neither Skyrim, nor any other game has ever and, dare I say, will ever be able to. It is truly the best and most satisfying game I have ever had the pleasure of playing. I sincerely hope that I am not the only one in this forum who thinks this. God knows I'm the only one of my friends and acquaintances who does. I also hope that at least a few of you have taken the time to read this fifteen-year-old's ranting. It would give my heart warmth to know that my thoughts weren't just sent into a void, never to be recognized or acknowledged by anyone.

Blessings of Akatosh upon you all. May the Nine guide your sword.

I just received my "Acolyte" status on this post, by the way. I'm kind of happy.

Been playing Oblivion since 2007, and on vanilla 360 no less, so I'm right there with ya Danleyson. I'm waiting for Skyrim GOTY.... my son and I have waited too damn long to not check it out.

It's most certainly worth checking out. I had a very fun month with it, and I'm sure others will get even more out of it. While I found Skyrim lacked the long-term "hooks" to keep me coming back for more, the initial rush of excitement and exploration was still well worth the purchase price. I only hope that future TES titles are a bit more like Oblivion and Morrowind in terms of faction depth, npc depth, and -- most importantly -- character customization and playstyle choice.

It took me about a year of playing Oblivion for me to declare that it was my favorite of all time, cross genres. I mean, Oblivion beats a lot of shooters for me, and I'm a good shooter. I'm confident that I can get into Skyrim without comparing it to Oblivion, and judging it on its own for myself. Though through lurking at the software section, I see it might be a challenge to remain objective.

Taken on its own it's a very solid action rpg title.

Thanks, Danleyson.

Fable2- OH, the comic book guys game. Todd MacFarland (sic?) was making inroads as I was leaving comic collecting. Even still, there's probably some titles in a box I own.
I looked at the video on youtube- it looks like war, and more war, all the time. Looks like Diablo, kinda. You can't go by the ads and shorts released, because they're going to emphasis action, but I didn't see a town to live in; I saw lots of hostile landscapes to explore and fight your way through. Wish Jim Starlin was making a game.


Pseron wyrd, Once you mentioned it, I recalled Morrowing NPC's standing around. Would it have been a substancial investment to have NPC interaction in Skyrim as much or more than in Oblivion? Very hard for me to define what I'm saying- there are NPC's in Oblivion talking about how the Bravil mages guild lead protects her members- they react to events in their world. They react to the player's actions. There is not nearly as much of that in Skyrim. And do I mean the bargaining wheel, and the script choices with the NPC's? Yes,throw that in too- Is all of this a real cost, Pseron Wyrd, did Bethesda save much money by their removal?

My sense is yes,it costs money, but that isn't why it was removed. It seems to have been removed in a sweeping gesture to cut off all dead wood. They just left it all behind. Started new with much less to worry about.

Yes, I wondered as well: what was trade like? What were the cities like? What sort of sklils did it offer, and what about guilds and guild quests? Was it a dynamic environment in which different factions actually fought, with some results?

But I'm inclined to be very skeptical, if only because the PR and puff interviews I read credited it with having done something astounding by letting the player start out "without a fate" (no character creation, in other words) and "select a destiny" along a skill path (which Diablo did, too). Sounds like more of the same, in other words, with fancier graphics.

Meanwhile, Telepath RPG is due out about two weeks, and Crusader Kings II in about a week. Both look like they offer far more intriguing RPG possibilities--and Telepath RPG is a relatively humble indie RPG, while CKII is a strategy sim. This says something about the games industry and big RPG titles, I think.

Oh, Danleyson, my own 15 year old son laughed very hard upon reading your description, Call of Duty, Wars of Tamriel ll. No, you're not alone in high regard for Oblivion. I keep hoping something comes along better-