Hey Old Grog, I need to apologize. You don't seem like a bad fellow, we're just not communicating or something..

Friendly fire. Happens all the time in the Battle for Kvatch. That's one of the dangers in using Area of Effect spells.

Thanks Renee Gade lll, I know I can sound stuffy at times. Good writing is doing it with the least words- and I fail.

I'm just a guy who got Obliivon with a Xbox for his kids and couldn't believe his luck. I went back and got Morrowind.

If people are happy with Skyrim after a year, then what I miss isn't missed.
I think they took away too many choices best left to us.

I miss improving attributes all the time- that really helped the game. If you walked, you got stronger and faster, if your ran........, etc etc. My players are almost the same after 50 levels- I'm still plodding through a wonderland at a very slow pace. I may get a new computer when funds permit just to be able to move faster- it's like playing with a iron ball attached to your ankle after Oblvion and Morrowind. But I'm trying- I have 449 hours and 28 minutes now in Skyrim.

Bethesda didnt 'gyp' us. There is a lot of work and charm in the game scattered throughout. But without a more involved character build, I'm afraid the game is going to be dropped, just like either of the Fallouts, after several playthroughs.

And I miss talking to NPCs. It isn't good that most of them say a line to me and nothing else. It's not good that whatever I do there is little comment on it- and no good or evil. No infamy or fame. The NPC's hardly talk to one another either- not like the earlier games.

Skyrim does deserve Game of the Year. But it's more of a action adventure than it is a rpg.

I thought the character build of Fallout suited that post nuclear society well- not an Elder Scrolls world. Howard said Fallout 3 taught him how to make a game. Are all Bethesda top title games going to be the same now?

Ironically, this very thing was said about Oblivion when it was released. And Daggerfall fans said it about Morrowind when it was released too.

Actually, if you came to Daggerfall from the likes of Baldur's Gate, you probably said "What the heck is this First Person thing, some kind of Action Adventure?"

Yes, this is very true. Fact is, all of the Elder Scrolls games have been action/RPG hybrids. It's actually one of the (many) reasons I like them.

Me, too. I think that, for me, the appeal is mostly the "individual character" aspect of it. Older RPGs were designed on the D&D "party" system, and that always threw me off the character-development side of the game.

Exceptions were the old Fallout games, which were single-character, and even though they were the old turn-based overhead view, I had the sense that the character was learning and growing. (I played through Fallout 3, but don't feel that it has a lot of replay value, because of the locked-in player-character storyline.)

I do see a gradual progression in the Elder Scrolls games, from Daggerfall on, with each successive game offering fewer choices. There are fewer factions, fewer clothing options, fewer character-building options, fewer good/evil branches in the quest lines, etc. I think this represents a gradual move from "RPG with Action Elements" to "Action with RPG Elements." It's probably inevitable, given the market.

One of the things I find absolutely weird, though, is the emotional reaction of people who don't favor the changes. It's as if the existence of Oblivion has suddenly threatened the existence of Morrowind, or somehow the sales success of Skyrim will make Oblivion no longer playable. I don't get it.

I suspect it's more that it makes them feel that no more games of the same style will be made, i.e. they'll never get a "Morrowind II" or and "Oblivion II"

When gamesas moved from creating PC games, to create PC games with console ports, to creating console games with PC ports, the target audience understandably changed. It wasn't an earthshaking shift as some would have it, but there it is.


I feel that Morrowind is better in many respects than its successors, but like you I'm not threatened by anybody else who prefers Oblivion, or Skyrim. I've no idea why I should be; preferences for these other games are of course sound, since other people have different lives and interests. But too many people invest their identity in things, and if you make other choices than theirs, they perceive this as an attack on their self-worth. And no, I don't get it, either.

The matter's muddied by PR, which led some people at least (who should certainly have known better) to think that in buying Skyrim they were getting a reflection of the perfect game that exists in their head, with development choices that they're told are far better than the ones in gamesas's older games--not because they are, but because the company is targetting (again) a different market. So gamesas encourages this division, hypocritically cuts down it own older product, and pushes A into the limelight by pushing out B. This is bound to have its effect, as well.

Mm hmm this is very true. In fact, I'm gonna disagree (politely) with Old Grog's assertion up above that Skyrim is more of an action/adventure. I've seen this opinion before, so it's not like he's the only one who thinks this. But....I've never chopped wood or got a job or harvested mushrooms or smithed or gazed in awe at the Northern Lights or hunted a rabbit or (fill in the blank) in any Action/Adventure I've ever played in the past. Are any of these things considered action or adventure?

That's the thing about Oblivion and Skyrim...probably earlier TES games, as well. If you want to play them as AA's it's certainly possible. But it's also possible to really get into a role, which doesn't always necessarily include action or adventure.

Yes, I'd say it's definitely true of the earlier games. The big difference with the earlier games is that, having text-based dialog, it was possible for quest details to actually be conveyed by the quest-givers. That meant that such things as neon quest pointers were not necessary. But you could definitely play through the questlines in a linear "adventure" fashion, if you wanted, and a lot of the people who talk about "beating" those games probably did just that.

I'd like to point out, in Skyrim you can disable those "neon quest pointers" both on the PC and on the consoles from the get go without mods.

On topic, I do not feel that Skyrim is limiting in the character creation. I would have liked attributes to still be in the game, but I don't feel like it limits me. Skyrim plays very well without them and in some ways I feel it is liberating.

You can accomplish the same thing in Oblivion by making the Nirnroot quest your current quest. Of course, you won't be able to find whatever it is you're looking for, because nobody actually told you where it is.


So it doesn't limit you to have fewer character creation choices? Even though you "would have liked attributes to still be in the game"?

As I said previously, I haven't played Skyrim, so I don't have any basis for an opinion on it. I do know that, in the transition from Morrowind to Oblivion, I felt that the reduction of available skills, loss of several clothing slots, and removal of a bunch of magic effects resulted in more limitation on my ability to create characters. It didn't stop me from playing Oblivion, and mods have made up for some of the loss. But I still see a loss of freedom and choice.

It appears to me that Skyrim has moved further in that direction, removing many spell effects, more clothing slots, more character generation choices. I'm not sure how that doesn't add up to "limitation."

Well, personally I think only Daggerfall and Skyrim have good character builds since they support, you know, variety and more important choices when leveling.

OP, I remember tons of people stating the exact same words you just typed regarding Oblivion and Morrowind, when Oblivion was released. "Oblivion is for the younger generation who just want action and instant gratification. Morrowind was for people who wanted to build and earn the rewards from their work", yada yada....they made the same points...

Personally, I think that Skyrim is more of a return to Morrowind, in that respect. Some things about Skyrim do not reward me instantly. I'm really not certain why you feel the opposite, though you are certainly entitled to your opinion. It's perfectly fine that you feel this way, but to be honest, I'm having a hard time connecting the dots you've so easily drawn together.

I just wish Skyrim had attributes.

Isn't this exactly what Old Grog is saying? Attributes are characteristics. They are what makes one person different from another. When you take them out of the picture, you have taken away some of the ability to create different characters.

The OP absolutely was not, did not, and is not saying that most people feel the same as him. He even went as far as stating he feels like his opinion is a minority opinion. LEARN TO READ.

The point has been made that people felt Oblivion was more of an action game than rpg, that Morrowind was more of an action game than rpg---etc. This normalizes Skryim- making it appear everyting is fine.

If the character build of Fallout 3 is fine, then Skyrim is fine. Skryrim is not fine- if one wants choices and a character build more substantial like earlier titles. And the NPC interaction has been largely abandoned.


Ahabshazami, I appreciate you've read my posts, and acted on good intention in your post to Renee Gade lll; but we already settled our differences. And forum people helped along the way- I don't want to go backward. You know how these forums can be- the gotcha stuff. You probably dislike it too. And now you can rebuke me because I said something to you when you were trying to help and on and on it goes. ( I hope not) If she wasn't in good faith she wouldn't have said something to me about it- she stood up. Believe me, I need all the help I can get. But so do we all Brother, so do we all.

Let's assume we're all in good faith.

I want to know how people feel or think about Skyrim's character depth and development and NPC interaction. Doesn't anyone else miss the interaction with NPC's and the choices of your character as they grew that made the game so interesting?

People complained Oblivion was watered down- not that the character build was less. The strong cultural elements were gone- like the great Houses, but racial distinctions were still there, NPC interaction was there and improved, the attributes were there.

Skyrim is largely Fallout 4. Fallout may be called a rpg, but it's primarily a action adventure- regardless where critics place them.

Not if you've got an active imagination it won't. I could post the list of ideas for future characters I've got for Skyrim, some of which would be impossible for me to play in Oblivion, but it would be a long list, and I dont' feel like typing it all out right now. Lack of attributes won't stop me from employing these ideas. I never used Oblivion's prefabricated character classes, I always went custom.

That being said, I do want attributes back. Just to have them. I miss them. I grew up with numbers in every "RPG" I've ever played (even the bad ones) and I miss them.



An example would be Skyrim's "world map" or whatever it's called. I was assuming it would make the game too easy. Looking at Oblivion's map, it's always easy to see where you are, so that if I used it at all out in the wilderness, it would almost feel spoiler-ish. Skyrim's map is covered with clouds, really makes it more challenging to use. I like this sort of challenge.





Thank you Grog.


I have no problem with character depth or development in Skyrim or Oblivion. So long as I start with a solid set of ideas, I usually wind up with a character I can play for a long, long time. Having lots of imagination helps. There are also still a decent amount of "choices" one can make. In some cases, Skyrim allows more choices during questlines than I noticed in Oblivion. Sky's bigger quests are obviously shorter, though. That's the main detriment there.

NPC's are a mixed bag, but this could also be said of Oblivion's NPC's too. Anyways,...Skyrim's NPC's often are right on-topic with the things they say. Like if I pass a cave, my follower might say "oooh, a cave. I wonder what's inside..." That's completely on-topic, and really immerses me. I could post numerous examples of on-topic, immersive things Sky's NPC's say. This is true during quests, too.

On the other hand, where Skyrim eventually fails is after awhile, lots of NPC's simply start stating the same things over and over..."you know what's wrong with Skyrim, everyone is obsessed with death!" is an example. This statement might be okay once in a while, but every time we pass that same NPC?????????? It gets old after awhile.


I've never played Fallout (I'm afraid to, honestly) but I'm disagreeing with you on this one in regards to Skyrim being an A/A.

In an action/adventure like Tomb Raider or Uncharted, the focus of the game is on the action and the adventure. To move the game along, you have to participate in the game's action/adventure side, there really is nothing else to do in these games but jump from planes or swing from vines over scissor traps, whatever. You do not get to create your own role...this has been created already. We merely get to participate.

In TES, on the other hand, Oblivion or Skyrim (the 2 games I've tried so far) I get to create my own role, which is open-ended and somewhat limitless. If I want to create a character who picks mushrooms and flower all day, a character who never dungeon-dives or participates in any quests whatsoever, I can do so. Is picking mushrooms and flowers action? Is it adventure? I would say it's not.

I am therefore playing a role with this flower-picking character. We can call it "alchemist", we can call this role "hippy"...whatever we like. BUT that doesn't stop me from doing other things. TES allows us lots of other activities (Skyrim more than Oblivion in my opinion) which are neither action or adventure.

Can you at least post their names? I love the ones you come up with.

Wow, what a compliment! Give me a few hours (at work now) I'll post 'em up when I get home.

Renee Gade lll- OK, I got it- in a classic adventure action game, the character is fixed, you don't create one.

But what Bethesda has allowed us to choose in creation this time around is much less. You said you missed attributes, in part because you knew these game by the numbers. I miss attributes not only because it was neat to be able to defeat the door in Merhunes razor by sheer strength, but I miss the sense of growth. That's right- go strolling through the forest and you get stronger, faster. That was great. It is flat in Skyrim, and feels flat. And incidentally, on the console, this is not helped by the slow speed of the hero. Poor smuck is plodding along. We can't even jump from a run.

And the NPC's saying the same line- following me into my house to say them? I can't bargain, can't use a negotiation wheel. And they don't speak to themselves much. In Cyrodil they gathered in groups and clucked all day long. Yes, it was repetitive, but it gave the appearence of people socializing- and they also reacted to the Hero's actions and new events in their world. These ambitious things are gone from Skyrim. There isn't even a new ambitious attempt to simulate interaction- it's gone. Bethesda was one of the few companies trying for interaction. I can only think of Risen now.

The loss of magic creation for me wasn't as significant, but it was missed. For some mage types, that was a real killer. And the spells are limited, and the potions? All loss of choices.

So- it's easy to see Skyrim is not an action adventure game by the book, but its sure heading there fast.



I wonder if the love of Skyrim isn't going to wane after months, instead of years.

OP, I understand what you are talking about... I'm not complaining about Skyrim's system, and Oblivion's menus could get a bit clunky at time, and the entire system was streamlined. Are there problems in the design? Yes. Is there room for improvement? Yes. Will the Elder Scrolls die off from here? No.

Bethesda will no doubt see how much outrage has been had at the removal of the indepth menus and whatnot, and will add them into the next game... I sincerely hope though that they streamline them more and more, so that they are easier to manage and whatnot.

In Skyrim it's an actual option in the menus. No need for workarounds.


I'm aware I contradict myself, but I do feel that way. They could have done something with attributes, but at the same time, I don't have those numbers to dictate who my character is. It can all be in my imagination.

I'm not going to argue about magical effects and clothing slots. I'd like more of those too.

Yeah, I was just delivering a gentle jab. I can certainly understand (and fully agree) that imagination is effective over game limitation! As for magic effects and clothing slots, I have always felt that Morrowind had it right, and that Oblivion removed too much. I understand removing Jump and Levitate, but I don't understand the ongoing removal of armor parts, or the ability to wear articles of clothing under (or over) armor. Skyrim appears to have continued that process of simplification.